FAA: CBO Membership NOT required to comply with 336
08-09-2016, 06:48 PM
#301
Banned
My Feedback: (8)
I asked at [email protected] how to verify you are flying within a CBO program if a problem came up. They're reply was that they would do case by case review, which includes checking
for membership of CBO.
Bob
for membership of CBO.
Bob
08-10-2016, 03:49 AM
#302
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: El Paso,
TX
Posts: 5,277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I asked at [email protected] how to verify you are flying within a CBO program if a problem came up. They're reply was that they would do case by case review, which includes checking
for membership of CBO.
Bob
for membership of CBO.
Bob
Mike
08-10-2016, 06:17 AM
#304
One reason the FAA might check for membership would be to validate if an individual was flying as a hobbyist vs commercial. That could pull some weight regarding the intent of a suspected violation.
Last edited by Tipover; 08-10-2016 at 06:20 AM.
08-10-2016, 06:27 AM
#305
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: El Paso,
TX
Posts: 5,277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mike.
08-10-2016, 07:39 AM
#306
Here is a text version of my E-mail.
From: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 7:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: PL112-95 S336 and CBO
The FAA conducts thorough investigations of unsafe or unauthorized operations to develop evidence of
possible regulatory misconduct. Determinations regarding whether a modeler is operating in accordance
with a CBO are made on a case by case basis based on the evidence available, including membership.
Regards,
FAA UAS Integration Office
[email protected]
http://www.faa.gov/uas
From: Bob Ruff [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 12:18 PM
To: 9-NATL-UAS-Help (FAA)
Subject: PL112-95 S336 and CBO
Greetings,
Having seen the FAA response stating you are not required to join a community-based
organization. How does one determine, LEO, FAA, general public if a sUAS pilot is flying under the
guidelines of a community-based organization ? Membership card in CBO?
Thanks you,
Bob Ruff
FAA FA33A77K9L
AMA 2028
Bob
From: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 7:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: PL112-95 S336 and CBO
The FAA conducts thorough investigations of unsafe or unauthorized operations to develop evidence of
possible regulatory misconduct. Determinations regarding whether a modeler is operating in accordance
with a CBO are made on a case by case basis based on the evidence available, including membership.
Regards,
FAA UAS Integration Office
[email protected]
http://www.faa.gov/uas
From: Bob Ruff [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 12:18 PM
To: 9-NATL-UAS-Help (FAA)
Subject: PL112-95 S336 and CBO
Greetings,
Having seen the FAA response stating you are not required to join a community-based
organization. How does one determine, LEO, FAA, general public if a sUAS pilot is flying under the
guidelines of a community-based organization ? Membership card in CBO?
Thanks you,
Bob Ruff
FAA FA33A77K9L
AMA 2028
Bob
08-10-2016, 07:41 AM
#307
But either way there's a chance the individual isn't registered with the FAA, in which case a hobby club membership could indicate the intent of the flight.
08-10-2016, 08:19 AM
#308
Here is a text version of my E-mail.
From: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 7:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: PL112-95 S336 and CBO
The FAA conducts thorough investigations of unsafe or unauthorized operations to develop evidence of
possible regulatory misconduct. Determinations regarding whether a modeler is operating in accordance
with a CBO are made on a case by case basis based on the evidence available, including membership.
Regards,
FAA UAS Integration Office
[email protected]
http://www.faa.gov/uas
From: Bob Ruff [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 12:18 PM
To: 9-NATL-UAS-Help (FAA)
Subject: PL112-95 S336 and CBO
Greetings,
Having seen the FAA response stating you are not required to join a community-based
organization. How does one determine, LEO, FAA, general public if a sUAS pilot is flying under the
guidelines of a community-based organization ? Membership card in CBO?
Thanks you,
Bob Ruff
FAA FA33A77K9L
AMA 2028
Bob
From: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 7:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: PL112-95 S336 and CBO
The FAA conducts thorough investigations of unsafe or unauthorized operations to develop evidence of
possible regulatory misconduct. Determinations regarding whether a modeler is operating in accordance
with a CBO are made on a case by case basis based on the evidence available, including membership.
Regards,
FAA UAS Integration Office
[email protected]
http://www.faa.gov/uas
From: Bob Ruff [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 12:18 PM
To: 9-NATL-UAS-Help (FAA)
Subject: PL112-95 S336 and CBO
Greetings,
Having seen the FAA response stating you are not required to join a community-based
organization. How does one determine, LEO, FAA, general public if a sUAS pilot is flying under the
guidelines of a community-based organization ? Membership card in CBO?
Thanks you,
Bob Ruff
FAA FA33A77K9L
AMA 2028
Bob
Thanks for sharing what you received from the FAA UAS Integration Office. This is very helpful for all of us.
08-10-2016, 09:11 AM
#310
I personally think that to operate within a CBO you need to be a member. The FAA can not force you to join that is why they have their guidelines also posted to follow . Example, for the over 55 lb model. Unless it is certified under a CBO program(requires membership) you need to use the FAA rules.
Bob
Bob
Last edited by bruff; 08-10-2016 at 09:15 AM. Reason: spelling
08-10-2016, 09:51 AM
#312
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Aguanga,
CA
Posts: 1,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's fine that you personally think that . But the FAA on the other hand , appears to have now sent out two very different Emails saying two very different things to two different people . Now , the last guy who posted up an FAA Email was called a liar because that Email did not fit the narrative that some here are pushing , are you too calling his Email a fraud , and if so , what proof is there of ANY of these Email being authentic ? So tell me Bob , which Email AM I supposed to believe , the one that fits my view , your view , or neither , since now there appear to be two at direct odds with each other ?
PS , my view is that it's gonna be a cold day in Hell when the FAA comes right out and says AMA membership is required , and that why they've danced around the issue with language like "within the programming" and so fourth . If you want the AMA to be a forced membership group that's your opinion and an opinion that's shared by at least a couple of your fellow posters around here , but my opinion is that the forced member is not a happy member , and thus no real asset , other than financial , to our organization . Is it really ALL about the money to you and the other "forced membership" proponents ? No "quality instead of quantity" of members as long as the $$$ are rollin in ?
PS , my view is that it's gonna be a cold day in Hell when the FAA comes right out and says AMA membership is required , and that why they've danced around the issue with language like "within the programming" and so fourth . If you want the AMA to be a forced membership group that's your opinion and an opinion that's shared by at least a couple of your fellow posters around here , but my opinion is that the forced member is not a happy member , and thus no real asset , other than financial , to our organization . Is it really ALL about the money to you and the other "forced membership" proponents ? No "quality instead of quantity" of members as long as the $$$ are rollin in ?
Determination of “Model Aircraft” Status
. Whether a given unmanned aircraft operation
may be considered
a “model aircraft
operation
”
is determined with reference to section 336
of Public Law 112-95
08-10-2016, 09:54 AM
#313
I agree the FAA will never force any one the join a CBO. I'm not asking any one to be force to join a CBO. The FAA guidelines work for most hobbyist but if you want to fly outside of those rules, (example 55+ or larger , large fast turbines, etc) then you will need to join a CBO to use their rules instead of the FAA rules.
Bob
Bob
08-10-2016, 10:51 AM
#316
Thread Starter
"The Academy of Model Aeronautics is a world-class association of modelers organized for the purpose of promotion, development, education, advancement, and safeguarding of modeling activities. The Academy provides leadership, organization, competition, communication, protection, representation, recognition, education and scientific/technical development to modelers."
What still perplexes me is why those so altruistically dedicated to promoting, advancing, safeguarding, and protecting of modeling activities would not want more people to use the code – even if they’re non-members?
After all, just think of how many fewer near miss reports there would be if all those loathed “drone” fliers didn’t feel like they needed to be members to participate in the “programming?”
But instead, some are talking about being required to pay for the use of the very same code that AMA says is key to their "impeccable" 80-year history of flying safely?
What still perplexes me is why those so altruistically dedicated to promoting, advancing, safeguarding, and protecting of modeling activities would not want more people to use the code – even if they’re non-members?
After all, just think of how many fewer near miss reports there would be if all those loathed “drone” fliers didn’t feel like they needed to be members to participate in the “programming?”
But instead, some are talking about being required to pay for the use of the very same code that AMA says is key to their "impeccable" 80-year history of flying safely?
Last edited by franklin_m; 08-10-2016 at 10:54 AM.
08-10-2016, 11:00 AM
#317
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Orange County CA
Posts: 1,170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's fine that you personally think that . But the FAA on the other hand , appears to have now sent out two very different Emails saying two very different things to two different people . Now , the last guy who posted up an FAA Email was called a liar because that Email did not fit the narrative that some here are pushing , are you too calling his Email a fraud , and if so , what proof is there of ANY of these Email being authentic ? So tell me Bob , which Email AM I supposed to believe , the one that fits my view , your view , or neither , since now there appear to be two at direct odds with each other ?
PS , my view is that it's gonna be a cold day in Hell when the FAA comes right out and says AMA membership is required , and that why they've danced around the issue with language like "within the programming" and so fourth . If you want the AMA to be a forced membership group that's your opinion and an opinion that's shared by at least a couple of your fellow posters around here , but my opinion is that the forced member is not a happy member , and thus no real asset , other than financial , to our organization . Is it really ALL about the money to you and the other "forced membership" proponents ? No "quality instead of quantity" of members as long as the $$$ are rollin in ?
PS , my view is that it's gonna be a cold day in Hell when the FAA comes right out and says AMA membership is required , and that why they've danced around the issue with language like "within the programming" and so fourth . If you want the AMA to be a forced membership group that's your opinion and an opinion that's shared by at least a couple of your fellow posters around here , but my opinion is that the forced member is not a happy member , and thus no real asset , other than financial , to our organization . Is it really ALL about the money to you and the other "forced membership" proponents ? No "quality instead of quantity" of members as long as the $$$ are rollin in ?
As I've said in the past (and I disagree with Bob) one does NOT need to be a member of the AMA to follow safety guidelines of a CBO. But as the rules are written, if you plan to operate a model aircraft that is over 55lbs, then you have no choice but to be a member of a CBO such as the AMA or you can choose to apply for an "N" number (register) with the FAA to operate your model aircraft. Your choice.....Personally I would rather a person have their aircraft inspected by a CBO who know what to look for...........Really, how hard is it to understand what is written rule?
08-10-2016, 11:26 AM
#320
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Orange County CA
Posts: 1,170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now , the last guy who posted up an FAA Email was called a liar because that Email did not fit the narrative that some here are pushing , are you too calling his Email a fraud , and if so , what proof is there of ANY of these Email being authentic ? So tell me Bob , which Email AM I supposed to believe , the one that fits my view , your view , or neither , since now there appear to be two at direct odds with each other ?
08-10-2016, 11:38 AM
#321
That's fine that you personally think that . But the FAA on the other hand , appears to have now sent out two very different Emails saying two very different things to two different people . Now , the last guy who posted up an FAA Email was called a liar because that Email did not fit the narrative that some here are pushing ,
No one said anything of the sort. You should really stop making up stuff to try and make your case. Verification and validation are common everyday practices in many businesses and professions.
are you too calling his Email a fraud , and if so , what proof is there of ANY of these Email being authentic ?
So tell me Bob , which Email AM I supposed to believe , the one that fits my view , your view , or neither , since now there appear to be two at direct odds with each other ?
You can believe anyone you want. Better yet, why not ask the FAA yourself?
PS , my view is that it's gonna be a cold day in Hell when the FAA comes right out and says AMA membership is required , and that why they've danced around the issue with language like "within the programming" and so fourth . If you want the AMA to be a forced membership group that's your opinion and an opinion that's shared by at least a couple of your fellow posters around here , but my opinion is that the forced member is not a happy member , and thus no real asset , other than financial , to our organization . Is it really ALL about the money to you and the other "forced membership" proponents ? No "quality instead of quantity" of members as long as the $$$ are rollin in ?
No one said anything of the sort. You should really stop making up stuff to try and make your case. Verification and validation are common everyday practices in many businesses and professions.
are you too calling his Email a fraud , and if so , what proof is there of ANY of these Email being authentic ?
So tell me Bob , which Email AM I supposed to believe , the one that fits my view , your view , or neither , since now there appear to be two at direct odds with each other ?
You can believe anyone you want. Better yet, why not ask the FAA yourself?
PS , my view is that it's gonna be a cold day in Hell when the FAA comes right out and says AMA membership is required , and that why they've danced around the issue with language like "within the programming" and so fourth . If you want the AMA to be a forced membership group that's your opinion and an opinion that's shared by at least a couple of your fellow posters around here , but my opinion is that the forced member is not a happy member , and thus no real asset , other than financial , to our organization . Is it really ALL about the money to you and the other "forced membership" proponents ? No "quality instead of quantity" of members as long as the $$$ are rollin in ?
08-10-2016, 12:42 PM
#322
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: El Paso,
TX
Posts: 5,277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The AMA has absolutely nothing to do with any of this.
Mike
08-10-2016, 12:52 PM
#323
Bob is a friend of mine, I doubt he would post this to fit some sort of agenda as you have suggested. Careful how you tread.
As I've said in the past (and I disagree with Bob) one does NOT need to be a member of the AMA to follow safety guidelines of a CBO. But as the rules are written, if you plan to operate a model aircraft that is over 55lbs, then you have no choice but to be a member of a CBO such as the AMA or you can choose to apply for an "N" number (register) with the FAA to operate your model aircraft. Your choice.....Personally I would rather a person have their aircraft inspected by a CBO who know what to look for...........Really, how hard is it to understand what is written rule?
As I've said in the past (and I disagree with Bob) one does NOT need to be a member of the AMA to follow safety guidelines of a CBO. But as the rules are written, if you plan to operate a model aircraft that is over 55lbs, then you have no choice but to be a member of a CBO such as the AMA or you can choose to apply for an "N" number (register) with the FAA to operate your model aircraft. Your choice.....Personally I would rather a person have their aircraft inspected by a CBO who know what to look for...........Really, how hard is it to understand what is written rule?
08-10-2016, 12:54 PM
#324
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Aguanga,
CA
Posts: 1,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A practical example of how it might apply is the Pirker case. He said he was legitimately flying a model airplane as authorized under AC91-57. Would holding an AMA card have helped his case, to show he was operating a model aircraft? I doubt it, but ymmv (not you specifically, but somebody, like a judge).
08-10-2016, 01:06 PM
#325
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Orange County CA
Posts: 1,170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here are your Guidelines Ira: http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/520-a.pdf
