AMA Insider calls for CHANGE. VP running for President supports TRADITIONAL MODELLERS
08-14-2016, 11:26 AM
#76
In any organization, when the group culture turns toward looking back and focuses on preserving tradition instead of looking forward to grow, innovate, and develop, death is one generation away. The AMA has done a tremendous job helping aeromodeling develop over the years primarily because as a group aeromodelers have embraced new technologies and new ways of doing things. But as the median age of the AMA has risen, the culture has become past minded. If we vote in a candidate focused on tradition rather then innovation and incorporating the new products into our hobby in productive ways, we will be choosing not to have the AMA survive beyond the current generation of members.
08-14-2016, 02:13 PM
#77
The advancements will eventually get to the point where the difference will be great enough to require a totally new classification of hobby flight . Of this I truly do believe . To my eye , it's not the multirotors that are changing things , it's the flying camera , whether it's strapped to a multirotor or a fixed wing , the flying camera is an entirely different species than we've had in the hobby thus far . Interesting times ahead , that's for sure ....
Last edited by RCKen; 08-15-2016 at 04:49 PM.
08-14-2016, 02:55 PM
#78
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In any organization, when the group culture turns toward looking back and focuses on preserving tradition instead of looking forward to grow, innovate, and develop, death is one generation away. The AMA has done a tremendous job helping aeromodeling develop over the years primarily because as a group aeromodelers have embraced new technologies and new ways of doing things. But as the median age of the AMA has risen, the culture has become past minded. If we vote in a candidate focused on tradition rather then innovation and incorporating the new products into our hobby in productive ways, we will be choosing not to have the AMA survive beyond the current generation of members.
And the similarities between the national organizations and the the AMA ones are really startling when you sit down and read the campaign statements,well, for at least two of the members. It's like they are taking playbook pages right out of Trump's campaign. Take the xenophobia, fear mongering, elitists, Nationalism, and plain demagogy and you can see the same themes creeping into this campaign.
Let's make the hobby great again, get back to "tradition". Let's build a wall and make sure we separate THEM from US. If we keep embracing THEM, we'll have the govt continue to get involved and then take our THINGS away. Pick me and I'll make everything right again, I can do it (but no specifics there, just generalities) Oh, those are from folks that have been involved at the EC level already, and or other higher positions in the AMA. And of course those are just the high level themes. Tiano appears to have a history of making slurs against folks, as well as making veiled threats of violence against people, based on e-mails he reportedly sent. At least none of the candidates are talking about sending the MR/Drones back to the country they came from. Then again, it's early in the campaign!
I hope all of the candidates will make themselves available for either a debate (yes, it can be done), or at a minimum some type of prearranged or times Q and A, sort of like Reddit does with the "ask me anything". Campaign statements are normally worked over canned messages that appeal to the broadest spectrum of potential voters and don't normally address timely issues, and provide specific suggestions or solutions to the issues at hand.
08-14-2016, 03:03 PM
#79
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The advancements will eventually get to the point where the difference will be great enough to require a totally new classification of hobby flight . Of this I truly do believe . To my eye , it's not the multirotors that are changing things , it's the flying camera , whether it's strapped to a multirotor or a fixed wing , the flying camera is an entirely different species than we've had in the hobby thus far . Interesting times ahead , that's for sure ....
08-14-2016, 05:41 PM
#80
I think the time is here and now, Init. The drones aka flying cameras are a different breed, but that's not to invalidate them as a worthwhile hobby pursuit. They deserve to have organization, representation and advocacy just as much as model aircraft enthusiasts do.......but not by the same organization.
Last edited by RCKen; 08-15-2016 at 04:41 PM.
08-14-2016, 06:07 PM
#81
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I think the time is here and now, Init. The drones aka flying cameras are a different breed, but that's not to invalidate them as a worthwhile hobby pursuit. They deserve to have organization, representation and advocacy just as much as model aircraft enthusiasts do.......but not by the same organization.
But lets say for arguments sake "they" get their own organization, representation, and advocacy. What does that change for the AMA, or it's members? This benefits us how? Does is change anything the FAA is doing, no. Does the AMA kick out those that are already in as members, and tell them to go to this new organization? What about folks who fly both disciplines, or better yet more than that...fixed wing, fixed wing with camera, MR, and Drone". Do they now have to join two orgs in order to enjoy the benefits of a CBO?
I see the candidates calling for this artificial construct of US and THEM, ie "we need to differentiate ourselves"....but not one person has said exactly how this would be done. You know, the actual details rather than the sound bite ie "we need change". Nor have any of them, or for that matter you, said exactly what the expected outcome would be. I'm not taking a shot at you, but what exactly would be the expected outcome of a different CBO being involved here, would anything really change for the AMA? And if that was to happen, how exactly would you expect the current members to be treated?
Not a bad question really to put to Tougas since he seems to be asking for the same thing in principle.
08-14-2016, 06:24 PM
#82
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My biggest flying camera objection centers around any "hobby based" unrestricted BLOS flight . We know it's out there happening cause there are literally hundreds of hours of it on UTube . To me , the AMA #550 adherents really aren't any kind of problem cause they are in their fields within their spotter's line of sight and aren't making any kinds of menace of themselves . It's the darned unrestricted BLOS that's the problem . How many #550 flyers are out there getting in the jetliner's way VS the unrestricted "hobby based" BLOS flyers flying where and when they choose ? With every new major development the the technology comes first , the misuse of the technology comes second (in this case unrestricted BLOS) , and then the regulations come third . So far us LOS hobby flyers haven't been affected much yet , other than the FAA number next to the AMA number my flying has remained the same and I hope in the future as more and more of the unrestricted BLOS crew causes trouble we can still maintain that that's not us , our code don't allow BLOS and so we don't need any more regulating , we've done pretty good with it all these years ourselves just by keeping our eyes directly on the models we are flying ..... .
The original decision to market to MRM and FPV modelers was made with the best intentions. The thought was the AMA would have a new stream of members to fund all of our membership programs such as flying site assistance grants, education scholarships, political outreach, etc. Now we have a much better understanding of the market and it shows that it is time to reassess our plan.
They need their own organization, and we don't need the bad publicity associated with their growing pains.
08-14-2016, 07:14 PM
#83
I think the fixed wing folks are simply feeling nostalgic and hoping to revert back to way things were before MR technology showed up on the scene, which is highly unlikely we can ever go back there at this point in the game. That autonomous flight technology can and has been used with many flight platform types, and therefore it presents the same security concern to the FAA regardless of the aircraft type being flown. Once a technology falls into the hands of the main stream consumer, it becomes pretty difficult to control where it will be used next.
08-14-2016, 07:40 PM
#84
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I think the fixed wing folks are simply feeling nostalgic and hoping to revert back to way things were before MR technology showed up on the scene, which is highly unlikely we can ever go back there at this point in the game. That autonomous flight technology can and has been used with many flight platform types, and therefore it presents the same security concern to the FAA regardless of the aircraft type being flown. Once a technology falls into the hands of the main stream consumer, it becomes pretty difficult to control where it will be used next.
08-14-2016, 09:08 PM
#85
And yet flying cameras were around for decades before MR/Drones came to be. They were just hooked up to fixed wing aircraft. So really doesn't seem it's the flying camera concept as much as it is a MR/Quad issue for you.
But lets say for arguments sake "they" get their own organization, representation, and advocacy. What does that change for the AMA, or it's members? This benefits us how? Does is change anything the FAA is doing, no. Does the AMA kick out those that are already in as members, and tell them to go to this new organization? What about folks who fly both disciplines, or better yet more than that...fixed wing, fixed wing with camera, MR, and Drone". Do they now have to join two orgs in order to enjoy the benefits of a CBO?
I see the candidates calling for this artificial construct of US and THEM, ie "we need to differentiate ourselves"....but not one person has said exactly how this would be done. You know, the actual details rather than the sound bite ie "we need change". Nor have any of them, or for that matter you, said exactly what the expected outcome would be. I'm not taking a shot at you, but what exactly would be the expected outcome of a different CBO being involved here, would anything really change for the AMA? And if that was to happen, how exactly would you expect the current members to be treated?
Not a bad question really to put to Tougas since he seems to be asking for the same thing in principle.
But lets say for arguments sake "they" get their own organization, representation, and advocacy. What does that change for the AMA, or it's members? This benefits us how? Does is change anything the FAA is doing, no. Does the AMA kick out those that are already in as members, and tell them to go to this new organization? What about folks who fly both disciplines, or better yet more than that...fixed wing, fixed wing with camera, MR, and Drone". Do they now have to join two orgs in order to enjoy the benefits of a CBO?
I see the candidates calling for this artificial construct of US and THEM, ie "we need to differentiate ourselves"....but not one person has said exactly how this would be done. You know, the actual details rather than the sound bite ie "we need change". Nor have any of them, or for that matter you, said exactly what the expected outcome would be. I'm not taking a shot at you, but what exactly would be the expected outcome of a different CBO being involved here, would anything really change for the AMA? And if that was to happen, how exactly would you expect the current members to be treated?
Not a bad question really to put to Tougas since he seems to be asking for the same thing in principle.
just turned out that a mr with flight control unit and camera was fit-able into a box already completely built, just charge the batts and go. not so easy for a fixed wing.
and, of course, that hover in place thing.
08-15-2016, 05:03 AM
#86
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I think the fixed wing folks are simply feeling nostalgic and hoping to revert back to way things were before MR technology showed up on the scene, which is highly unlikely we can ever go back there at this point in the game. That autonomous flight technology can and has been used with many flight platform types, and therefore it presents the same security concern to the FAA regardless of the aircraft type being flown. Once a technology falls into the hands of the main stream consumer, it becomes pretty difficult to control where it will be used next.
Mike
Last edited by rcmiket; 08-15-2016 at 05:07 AM.
08-15-2016, 05:21 AM
#87
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the camera is easy to blame, but it isn't what really made the difference between the anything/anywhere folks and us hobbyists. that item is the autonomous flight control unit that has made flying anything, fixed/helo/mr easy for anybody with no training required.
just turned out that a mr with flight control unit and camera was fit-able into a box already completely built, just charge the batts and go. not so easy for a fixed wing.
and, of course, that hover in place thing.
just turned out that a mr with flight control unit and camera was fit-able into a box already completely built, just charge the batts and go. not so easy for a fixed wing.
and, of course, that hover in place thing.
08-15-2016, 05:23 AM
#88
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Govt regulation? How has the hobby changed for you or I over the past few years? Are you flying any differently now than you were a year, or two, or three ago? Where is this regulation you are talking about, or do you mean the $5.00 registration that took 5 minutes to complete?
08-15-2016, 07:47 AM
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08-15-2016, 08:46 AM
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In any organization, when the group culture turns toward looking back and focuses on preserving tradition instead of looking forward to grow, innovate, and develop, death is one generation away. The AMA has done a tremendous job helping aeromodeling develop over the years primarily because as a group aeromodelers have embraced new technologies and new ways of doing things. But as the median age of the AMA has risen, the culture has become past minded. If we vote in a candidate focused on tradition rather then innovation and incorporating the new products into our hobby in productive ways, we will be choosing not to have the AMA survive beyond the current generation of members.
08-15-2016, 10:09 AM
#91
One thing that occurred to me in reading these posts is that unlike FW, heli, and even FPV racing, the "flying" of the MR is incidental to what you can do with the MR. In the latter, the MR is merely a tool that allows someone to achieve a purpose largely unrelated to flying - photograph impossible to get otherwise, inspections, seeing if your gutters need cleaned, etc.
Model aviation has been largely focused on the flying itself as the primary motivation. I'd argue it still is, even including the MR FPV racing. But that use is fundamentally different than those where the flying device is merely a platform that allows completion of a function not as directly related to flying.
Model aviation has been largely focused on the flying itself as the primary motivation. I'd argue it still is, even including the MR FPV racing. But that use is fundamentally different than those where the flying device is merely a platform that allows completion of a function not as directly related to flying.
08-15-2016, 10:42 AM
#92
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One thing that occurred to me in reading these posts is that unlike FW, heli, and even FPV racing, the "flying" of the MR is incidental to what you can do with the MR. In the latter, the MR is merely a tool that allows someone to achieve a purpose largely unrelated to flying - photograph impossible to get otherwise, inspections, seeing if your gutters need cleaned, etc.
Model aviation has been largely focused on the flying itself as the primary motivation. I'd argue it still is, even including the MR FPV racing. But that use is fundamentally different than those where the flying device is merely a platform that allows completion of a function not as directly related to flying.
Model aviation has been largely focused on the flying itself as the primary motivation. I'd argue it still is, even including the MR FPV racing. But that use is fundamentally different than those where the flying device is merely a platform that allows completion of a function not as directly related to flying.
Because I'm pretty sure that someone flying a scratch built multi-rotor around a pylon race track is doing exactly what the pilot of a scratch built quickie 500 plane is doing while flying around a pylon race track.
Not all MR are flown by FPV.
08-15-2016, 10:49 AM
#93
Really, perhaps you mean drones in the truest sense, ie autonomous ones with camera?
Because I'm pretty sure that someone flying a scratch built multi-rotor around a pylon race track is doing exactly what the pilot of a scratch built quickie 500 plane is doing while flying around a pylon race track.
Not all MR are flown by FPV.
Because I'm pretty sure that someone flying a scratch built multi-rotor around a pylon race track is doing exactly what the pilot of a scratch built quickie 500 plane is doing while flying around a pylon race track.
Not all MR are flown by FPV.
08-15-2016, 11:02 AM
#94
One thing that occurred to me in reading these posts is that unlike FW, heli, and even FPV racing, the "flying" of the MR is incidental to what you can do with the MR. In the latter, the MR is merely a tool that allows someone to achieve a purpose largely unrelated to flying - photograph impossible to get otherwise, inspections, seeing if your gutters need cleaned, etc.
Model aviation has been largely focused on the flying itself as the primary motivation. I'd argue it still is, even including the MR FPV racing. But that use is fundamentally different than those where the flying device is merely a platform that allows completion of a function not as directly related to flying.
Model aviation has been largely focused on the flying itself as the primary motivation. I'd argue it still is, even including the MR FPV racing. But that use is fundamentally different than those where the flying device is merely a platform that allows completion of a function not as directly related to flying.
In my experience people that have such a hard time differentiating drones from traditional model aircraft have a vested interest (hidden or not) in keeping them mixed and they feign ignorance....to everyone else it is plain as day what the differences are.
Many of my fellow club members see this and I believe Larry Tougas sees it and I bet others on the EC do as well.
08-15-2016, 11:15 AM
#95
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I agree 100%. It is this simple.
Yes...traditional modeling focuses on the flying itself. The experience of flying. And I agree, to me MR Racing (FPV or not) is 100% a form of the modelling hobby......100% it can stand as a traditional model activity. We have already hosted one big race at our field. But even these guys have limited need for a classic, traditional "AMA type" field. They set up well in soccer fields, places like that
Again, I agree 100%. The VAST majority of the mass market "drone" units sold (especially when GoPro finally starts shipping) are not models but flying camera platforms. I would be very surprised if the GoPro will even feature any conventional 3 axis controls at all. It will be a phone app or it will just follow you and point the camera. And within 6 months they will sell more high end drones than everyone else put together has inception to date. Not models.
In my experience people that have such a hard time differentiating drones from traditional model aircraft have a vested interest (hidden or not) in keeping them mixed and they feign ignorance....to everyone else it is plain as day what the differences are.
Many of my fellow club members see this and I believe Larry Tougas sees it and I bet others on the EC do as well.
Yes...traditional modeling focuses on the flying itself. The experience of flying. And I agree, to me MR Racing (FPV or not) is 100% a form of the modelling hobby......100% it can stand as a traditional model activity. We have already hosted one big race at our field. But even these guys have limited need for a classic, traditional "AMA type" field. They set up well in soccer fields, places like that
Again, I agree 100%. The VAST majority of the mass market "drone" units sold (especially when GoPro finally starts shipping) are not models but flying camera platforms. I would be very surprised if the GoPro will even feature any conventional 3 axis controls at all. It will be a phone app or it will just follow you and point the camera. And within 6 months they will sell more high end drones than everyone else put together has inception to date. Not models.
In my experience people that have such a hard time differentiating drones from traditional model aircraft have a vested interest (hidden or not) in keeping them mixed and they feign ignorance....to everyone else it is plain as day what the differences are.
Many of my fellow club members see this and I believe Larry Tougas sees it and I bet others on the EC do as well.
Oh Tougas has certainly made his feelings on the issue know, too bad though that it's extremely vague and non specific in terms of what he actually wants to do about it. We want change..great, what change. We want to differentiate ourselves...great, how? And what difference will that make to anything at this point. Lets focus on traditional modeling...great, rubber powered and free flight? Just more platitudes and attitudes, no form or function.
His "traditional" mantra is only going to reach so far, he better get specific and lay out a reasonable plan of action. Or perhaps he'll take the safe approach and just call for general statements and not get mired down in those annoying details.
08-15-2016, 02:33 PM
#96
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It might be a good idea to look at the track records of the candidates. How long have the candidates been AMA members (leader members). Have they introduced any items to be voted upon or do they just vote on fluff. Do they have modeling experience? Who pays their travel expenses?
All appear to have deep experience in modeling, and one was even a scale heli pilot.
Tiano was a district AVP but then wasn't. I'd like to know specifically what he did while an AVP, and why he was no longer one. That doesn't usually happen. Looks like Ken has reached out to the AMA to allow them some space here to post, so I'm interested to hear what they have to say.
08-15-2016, 03:24 PM
#97
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Tiano was a district AVP but then wasn't. I'd like to know specifically what he did while an AVP, and why he was no longer one. That doesn't usually happen. Looks like Ken has reached out to the AMA to allow them some space here to post, so I'm interested to hear what they have to say.
At least two posters in this thread are "no longer one."
08-15-2016, 03:30 PM
#98
Moderator
The question was asked what will happen if "we" separate from "them." The answer is the death of the AMA. There are already several community organizations for MR flying. None have gained the critical mass yet to become a national representative yet, but they are on their way. If the AMA pushes away the MR crowd, their organisations will grow. Then they'll become a real player in government negotiations and grow more. If they are smart, they'll incorporate benefits for the park flyer crowd who are probably also flying MR vehicles. That will give them the two fastest growing segments of the RC hobby while the AMA continues to age. Eventually dues won't be able to support AMA services and promotion, so it will cease to exist. That will take a while, but a decision to be traditionalist now will make it a certainty. Then when the AMA goes, so will most clubs' insurance. Some might find other coverage, but many won't be able to and will have to close. As an organization, we need the funds and the energy of young people. If that means embracing newfangled gadgets that they like, so be it. But the truth is that most have already been turned away by selfish jerks who only want to be around glow powered balsa planes. Such people have already doomed their clubs to death once their generation is gone. If we let them, they will do the same to the AMA.
08-15-2016, 03:45 PM
#99
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Oh I'm sure it's a real knee slapper....lol inducing for sure, but I'm sure it's an inside joke ( and probably worse) but no doubt completely off topic...unless two posters here are running for the job and are both no longer avp's. Is that the case? If not...it's unclear why you would try to bring it into the conversation???
08-15-2016, 03:49 PM
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Oh I'm sure it's a real knee slapper....lol inducing for sure, but I'm sure it's an inside joke ( and probably worse) but no doubt completely off topic...unless two posters here are running for the job and are both no longer avp's. Is that the case? If not...it's unclear why you would try to bring it into the conversation???