Interesting data on 2014 AMA Financial/tax statement
08-12-2016, 04:20 PM
#51
08-12-2016, 04:22 PM
#52
08-12-2016, 04:44 PM
#53
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"If at first you don't succeed....
then skydiving is not for you!"
......DON"T JUMP OUT OF A GOOD AIRPLANE
Last edited by TampaRC; 08-12-2016 at 04:53 PM.
08-12-2016, 04:59 PM
#54
08-12-2016, 05:34 PM
#55
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What I know is that I asked for it earlier this year. Since the FY aligns with CY, it would have been the 2014 info, which should have been filed months before that. Never received it.
So sent formal request to IRS. Some time later I got a copy on paper from IRS. Now it's available online from the various places that get and post them. Did it get filed late? Don't know.
So whether or not you consider that to be "available" is up to you.
So sent formal request to IRS. Some time later I got a copy on paper from IRS. Now it's available online from the various places that get and post them. Did it get filed late? Don't know.
So whether or not you consider that to be "available" is up to you.
But hey... the good news is we have 4 people who think that they can run this operation and I guess bring it back to the way it used to be back in the good old days of traditional modeling I'm sure they'll put an end two salaries and perhaps even kill the magazine can't help but wonder if that would make everyone happy
Perjury...how ominous, lol.
08-12-2016, 05:58 PM
#56
As for killing a couple salaries and the magazine, I can't say it's not an idea that should be seriously considered. As you (I think) have pointed out, times are tough and non-profit revenues are dropping all over. How can we justify the same staff levels when there's fewer $$ coming in the door? Especially since people are typically one of the larger expenses - over 20% in the case of AMA.
I was merely trying to differentiate between the penalty for filing a report for internal use and the penalty for filing a report to the government. There's a vastly different level of accountability between the two. Perjury being the most obvious one.
08-12-2016, 07:35 PM
#57
Last edited by RCKen; 08-16-2016 at 12:08 PM.
08-12-2016, 11:09 PM
#58
Banned
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The issue is one of timing. I asked for it a while back. I don't think there's anything in the law that says I have to find and ask the right person. When it wasn't provided, I went to the organization certain to have it, if it existed. SUBSEQUENT to that, by a few months, it's now posted online.
Your sarcasm aside, organizations have functions, and those functions vary from organization to organization. And it's the staff that manages and executes those functions. I do have considerable experience running small staffs, large staffs, large staffs with globally distributed subordinates - all doing a variety of missions. Oversight of a major staff, which included public affairs, operational and administrative web pages, and oversight of magazine publishing was something I first did over a decade ago. And those were all secondary functions to the primary mission. So yes, I do have experience in managing staffs, ones probably a bit more complex than these.
As for killing a couple salaries and the magazine, I can't say it's not an idea that should be seriously considered. As you (I think) have pointed out, times are tough and non-profit revenues are dropping all over. How can we justify the same staff levels when there's fewer $$ coming in the door? Especially since people are typically one of the larger expenses - over 20% in the case of AMA.
I was merely trying to differentiate between the penalty for filing a report for internal use and the penalty for filing a report to the government. There's a vastly different level of accountability between the two. Perjury being the most obvious one.
Your sarcasm aside, organizations have functions, and those functions vary from organization to organization. And it's the staff that manages and executes those functions. I do have considerable experience running small staffs, large staffs, large staffs with globally distributed subordinates - all doing a variety of missions. Oversight of a major staff, which included public affairs, operational and administrative web pages, and oversight of magazine publishing was something I first did over a decade ago. And those were all secondary functions to the primary mission. So yes, I do have experience in managing staffs, ones probably a bit more complex than these.
As for killing a couple salaries and the magazine, I can't say it's not an idea that should be seriously considered. As you (I think) have pointed out, times are tough and non-profit revenues are dropping all over. How can we justify the same staff levels when there's fewer $$ coming in the door? Especially since people are typically one of the larger expenses - over 20% in the case of AMA.
I was merely trying to differentiate between the penalty for filing a report for internal use and the penalty for filing a report to the government. There's a vastly different level of accountability between the two. Perjury being the most obvious one.
So for me I'll just view this as another data point or two pulled out and used to stir up more unrest/concern. If I saw this being brought up by any members if the EC over the past two years I'd be more concerned.
08-13-2016, 03:05 AM
#59
So of course this begs the question , since the magazine has remained fairly unchanged for at least the last year or two , what HAS changed that caused it to loose a million dollars ? I'd rather not see the magazine eliminated but I sure would like to see it not operating in the red if at all possible .
08-13-2016, 03:53 AM
#61
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08-13-2016, 05:35 AM
#62
Rather than picking one data point from 2 years ago, I'll wait for the experts and pros to answer any questions or concerns I have. Overall I have no concerns about the viability and financial strength of the organization. Nor would I mention does ANY of the district VPs.....even the ones currently running for office.
So for me I'll just view this as another data point or two pulled out and used to stir up more unrest/concern. If I saw this being brought up by any members if the EC over the past two years I'd be more concerned.
So for me I'll just view this as another data point or two pulled out and used to stir up more unrest/concern. If I saw this being brought up by any members if the EC over the past two years I'd be more concerned.
That's fine.
- But I think it's a valid question why the internal reporting tells us one set of numbers about the magazine, while they're telling the IRS something different?
- I've also shown, in other posts, that based on IRS990 data, their membership revenue has been dropping every year for the past several years. I don't see that in the EC minutes either, yet the filings exist, the numbers are there, and they're undeniable. By your implication above, because it's not being discussed, then it's not a problem? I don't think that's a valid test. Enron wasn't expressing any concern, and we know how that turned out.
- I don't understand the reference about picking a data point from two years ago. That's the most recent financial data filed with the IRS, as the haven't apparently filed the 2015 data yet. But now that you mention it, I'll put in another IRS request for it and see what they say.
Asking questions about filings is what members should be doing, And it shouldn't be met with mockery, sarcasm, or "there's nothing to see here folks, move along," by Leader Members. I'd think those recognized for their leadership in the organization would be all about factually addressing these concerns, not mocking them.
08-13-2016, 06:14 AM
#64
Although the easiest thing to do would be to post the AMA financial report to members side by side with the IRS990 for the same year, I'd probably get reported for sharing members' only information in a public forum.
So, I'll just tell AMA members where to find it, what lines to add in the AMA report, and what to compare them against in the IRS report.
1. Log into AMA site, select "Members Only," then select "Annual Financial Statements"
2. Open/download the "2014 Financial Statement"
3. Go to page 4
4. Add up the "Revenue" from PP, MA Advertising, and MA Subscriptions.
5. On same page, add up "Expenses" from PP & MA
6. Download 2014 IRS 990 from the link in the OP this thread
7. Go to Part VIII, Statement of Revenue. "Aviation Magazine" was reported as $1,153,233
8. Go to Part IX, Statement of Functional Expenses. "Model Aviation Magazine" reported $2,597,872
Take value obtained in step 4 and subtract value obtained in step 5. That's what AMA is telling the members about the magazine revenue vs. expenses.
Take the value from step 7 and subtract the value in step 8. That's what AMA told IRS about the magazine revenue vs. expenses. (loss of $1,444,639)
Why tell members one thing and tell the IRS something else?
08-13-2016, 06:41 AM
#66
Banned
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Would be nice if Ken had shown both of em the door , see this nice helpful post , a typical example of what our resident supposed LM likes to post ? I intend to take a sampling of a whole bunch of the best ones , just like this one here , and send them in to the AMA with a question of if this is really how an LM is supposed to "lead" ?
I see you now have a fascination with the leader member status. Is this jealousy or just a genuine interest in the position ? With all of the years you have in the AMA instead of trying to make it yet another point of contention why not step up and become a leading member yourself. At a minimum you can show Franklin all the warmth and openness that he seeks from leader members. It's a rewarding designation and if you want some help filling out the paperwork let me know I'll be happy to help.
Last edited by porcia83; 08-13-2016 at 06:44 AM.
08-13-2016, 06:54 AM
#67
For those that want to do the math for themselves, here's where to go.
Although the easiest thing to do would be to post the AMA financial report to members side by side with the IRS990 for the same year, I'd probably get reported for sharing members' only information in a public forum.
So, I'll just tell AMA members where to find it, what lines to add in the AMA report, and what to compare them against in the IRS report.
1. Log into AMA site, select "Members Only," then select "Annual Financial Statements"
2. Open/download the "2014 Financial Statement"
3. Go to page 4
4. Add up the "Revenue" from PP, MA Advertising, and MA Subscriptions.
5. On same page, add up "Expenses" from PP & MA
6. Download 2014 IRS 990 from the link in the OP this thread
7. Go to Part VIII, Statement of Revenue. "Aviation Magazine" was reported as $1,153,233
8. Go to Part IX, Statement of Functional Expenses. "Model Aviation Magazine" reported $2,597,872
Take value obtained in step 4 and subtract value obtained in step 5. That's what AMA is telling the members about the magazine revenue vs. expenses.
Take the value from step 7 and subtract the value in step 8. That's what AMA told IRS about the magazine revenue vs. expenses. (loss of $1,444,639)
Why tell members one thing and tell the IRS something else?
Although the easiest thing to do would be to post the AMA financial report to members side by side with the IRS990 for the same year, I'd probably get reported for sharing members' only information in a public forum.
So, I'll just tell AMA members where to find it, what lines to add in the AMA report, and what to compare them against in the IRS report.
1. Log into AMA site, select "Members Only," then select "Annual Financial Statements"
2. Open/download the "2014 Financial Statement"
3. Go to page 4
4. Add up the "Revenue" from PP, MA Advertising, and MA Subscriptions.
5. On same page, add up "Expenses" from PP & MA
6. Download 2014 IRS 990 from the link in the OP this thread
7. Go to Part VIII, Statement of Revenue. "Aviation Magazine" was reported as $1,153,233
8. Go to Part IX, Statement of Functional Expenses. "Model Aviation Magazine" reported $2,597,872
Take value obtained in step 4 and subtract value obtained in step 5. That's what AMA is telling the members about the magazine revenue vs. expenses.
Take the value from step 7 and subtract the value in step 8. That's what AMA told IRS about the magazine revenue vs. expenses. (loss of $1,444,639)
Why tell members one thing and tell the IRS something else?
Wow . Simply Wow . Again , Thank You Franklin for finding these differences in the figures ! It's things like this that put it into clear as day focus why we have people here who try to put up "anti-AMA people" smokescreens to divide the members into arguing among themselves , it takes folks' attention away from things such as this difference in accounting that REALLY bears looking in to . I do have a tax professional in my family , a "CPA" for anyone who knows what that is (I don't
) that will be shown these figures and asked what the logical reason for the difference would be . Could it be an accounting mistake ? Could it be something fraudulent that's done to deceive either the IRS or the membership as to the actual financial status of our organization ? Either way , being close enough to this tax person to know that when the figures ARE found to be wrong , for whatever reason mistake or intentional misreporting , an "amended return" is supposed to get sent in to rectify the figures , should the AMA be notified to correct this mistake in figures before it gets to the IRS , who just LOVES to levy penalties & interest on misreported tax returns ?
Last edited by RCKen; 08-15-2016 at 05:50 PM.
08-13-2016, 07:04 AM
#69
I just want your expert opinion, lest I later be told I didn't ask the right person. So I'm turning to you, as a Leader Member, to direct me where / whom to ask.
08-13-2016, 07:05 AM
#71
08-13-2016, 07:07 AM
#72
Who exactly should a member ask to get an explanation why the financial report says one thing and the IRS filing for the same year says something else?
I just want your expert opinion, lest I later be told I didn't ask the right person. So I'm turning to you, as a Leader Member, to direct me where / whom to ask.
I just want your expert opinion, lest I later be told I didn't ask the right person. So I'm turning to you, as a Leader Member, to direct me where / whom to ask.
In Fact , Franklin , Since I will not have my own computer with me when I go visit my relative this afternoon/evening , could you please PM me the figures that you were leery to post in open forum ? I will print the page on paper with all the figures and ask what the reason for this difference would most likely look to the IRS .
Last edited by RCKen; 08-15-2016 at 05:17 PM.
08-13-2016, 07:23 AM
#73
I intend to ask a tax professional this afternoon , and I WILL be posting what gets told to me ....
In Fact , Franklin , Since I will not have my own computer with me when I go visit my relative this afternoon/evening , could you please PM me the figures that you were leery to post in open forum ? I will print the page on paper with all the figures and ask what the reason for this difference would most likely look to the IRS .
In Fact , Franklin , Since I will not have my own computer with me when I go visit my relative this afternoon/evening , could you please PM me the figures that you were leery to post in open forum ? I will print the page on paper with all the figures and ask what the reason for this difference would most likely look to the IRS .
The non-profit produces two magazines that it sends to members and subscribers. In the financial report prepared by their auditing form, they report revenue and expense for these magazines. Yet in the IRS 990, revenue and expenses are different - considerably.
Why revenue and expenses be different depending on whether it's an internal report or a federal filing?
08-13-2016, 08:07 AM
#74
I hope you understand, but in an abundance of caution, because I know some would like nothing more than to have reason for AMA to boot me, I'd prefer not to do that. Merely ask this:
The non-profit produces two magazines that it sends to members and subscribers. In the financial report prepared by their auditing form, they report revenue and expense for these magazines. Yet in the IRS 990, revenue and expenses are different - considerably.
Why revenue and expenses be different depending on whether it's an internal report or a federal filing?
The non-profit produces two magazines that it sends to members and subscribers. In the financial report prepared by their auditing form, they report revenue and expense for these magazines. Yet in the IRS 990, revenue and expenses are different - considerably.
Why revenue and expenses be different depending on whether it's an internal report or a federal filing?
Last edited by RCKen; 08-15-2016 at 05:02 PM.
08-13-2016, 08:44 AM
#75
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It will be interesting to see if the Internet sleuths and "I know an accountant" folks find something the IRS missed in a recent audit of the AMA. I'm betting not, but you never know!! I also find it a bit ironic this intense interest in the AMA's tax returns and yet a person who is running for the most powerful leader in the Free World is being given a pass on releasing his returns, like every single Presidential Candidate has done since the early 70's.
Oh well.
Oh well.