BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

I thought about it a lot, both before and after I posted it, I don't feel it was a personal attack, I felt it was me telling you my personal opinion of your allegations. Feel free to report it, if Ken feels it was a personal attack I'm sure he will remove it, I have no special or moderator privileges in this forum.

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

All this supposition. I wonder how much it costs?

Based on the poll results here, it looks like the membership would agree that cutting spending on lapel pins, adorned shirts and sticky notes in order to ensure an unbiased count of ballots would be a good decision. It's all about priorities I guess.

Astro

TheEdge

My Feedback: (788)

I don' think that the people who are posting here are the sort to go reporting on something that they didn't like, well maybe 99% anyway as I know of one. I don't see Frankln being that sort of individual. He simply told you how he was made to feel which in turn, you downplayed..

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

My state uses paper ballots for all elections with an electronic reader at each voting place to count the votes without an internet connection that could be hacked. Everyone of those ballots has a unique control number like my AMA ballot and they are marked by the voter with a black pen filling in the easily identified appropriate spot for the candidate of choice just like my AMA ballot. Unlike my AMA ballot the state ballots don't take write ins. The Control number is there to prove each ballot is legal and some putz has tried making his own to stuff the ballot box. I think adding a control number to the AMA ballot is smart and gives a level of security against shenanigans from unscrupulous individuals. It would be a logistical nightmare to track individual ballots to the individual voters and if you did to what end? I suspect the AMA check for the uniqueness of the control numbers received and track the control number ranges back to the individual districts to prevent fake ballots from being counted. Anything other purpose would have no real value or have any logic behind it other then paranoia.

init4fun

Hi Flyer in OKC ,

Thank you for your response and yes in a paper ballot system like you describe I can see where the control numbers will prevent counterfeiting of the ballots . What I'm not so sure of is that it's only "paranoia" that the numbers could very easily be tracked by the same computer that generated them in the first place , complete with our names & AMA numbers on the sheet of paper that the ballot is to be detached from . These differing viewpoints are welcome with me and please rest assured that of all the things folks may call me , paranoid isn't one of my afflictions , nor will I respond to the paranoia diagnosis with a diagnosis of my own , preferring to stay on the subject itself instead of focusing on the fellow posters who hold different views .

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

But you still haven't elaborated on how the information could be used or to what end? It makes no sense to me. These days if you know what you are doing you can find out just about anything about anybody privacy is an illusion. So lets pretend they are tracking each members vote what can they do with it? From a development point of view what could the gain be by making the investment necessary in the technology and labor cost to collect this information? I still don't see a real or imagined benefit. The majority of members pay dues, get the magazine and fly at their home field. Their only real interaction with the AMA is to read the monthly magazine, occasional email or correspondence, and the occasional election. The average AMA member interacts in person on the local level and may visit Muncie once or twice in their modelling career. If they do go to a completion they are more likely to do so as a spectator.

init4fun

Hi Flyer in OKC , See that's just it , for all I know maybe they just want to know region wise who voted for who , as in maybe something like "Rich got more votes in the north , Frank got more in the south" and so on like that . For All I know there is no nefarious purpose for the numbers , but at the end of the day since the numbers are generated and received back to the same place , it does seem to me like it would be very easy to look into who voted for who . I have no problem whatsoever telling you or anyone else who I vote for , I'm proud of who I choose and in this case I'm in a split decision between two , Rich & Frank . But I do not want someone to have the ability to look into the computer that will count the ballots , maybe the very same computer that issued the numbers for all I know , and see who I voted for without my consent . That's all , no huge "Who killed Kennedy" conspiracy theories , just another member curious of the security of his Ballot .

Thank You for asking so I had a chance to further explain that I do not think there is some rampant dishonesty swirling about the AMA elections . As has been said already in this thread , the past DOES include an ugly episode of an AMA election being unjustly tampered with , from then on it would appear prudent to keep a watchful eye over the process , so that such underhanded behavior never again is allowed to taint an AMA election .

Trust , but Verify ....

franklin_m

You individualized your comments...mentioning me by name and talking about my service. That's a personal attack. I see that point is lost however, as you've rationalized it already.

More proof that AMA EC members want us "unwashed masses" to be seen and not heard -- for how DARE we question what AMA is doing with ballots!

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

I see what you are saying init4fun, its the same type of demographics we see in every government elections so I still don't see anything wrong with it.

TimJ

I don't recall a personal attack. I do see a vested interest in an organization that basically was pissed on by those whom haven't taken the time to educate themselves or lift a finger. I can see how you would become quickly defensive or offended by some of the allegations of election fraud. Should be no reason for someone to loose their moderator status for such a subject. We are all human.

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

I just had a thought init4fun, we could always email the 4 candidates ask their opinions on the subject and then vote accordingly?! There I go injecting logic into a perfectly good discussion and ruining the whole thing! Some people can be such killjoys! ;-)

franklin_m

Educate ourselves? About what? Perhaps the innumerable cases of ballot stuff in much smaller organizations handling much smaller amounts of money? Or perhaps about how to conduct an election that doesn't create an opportunity for impropriety? Something else?

Lift a finger? Last time I checked, nothing in the bylaws required anything more than my money on time and a signature on an agreement that carries no weight outside an AMA field - if they even enforce it at all. So that really isn't germane to the discussion, as we've done everything required of us.

As an EC member, aren't they supposed to set the example? In this case, that appears to be turning to personal attacks whenever their feelings get hurt.

init4fun

Yes Sir , I like that kind of thinking !

Honestly , It would be great to have a round table internet conference where the 4 were asked their views on a list of fair , pre vetted questions that we could all watch , and the in house/outside firm ballot count question would be a fair one to ask indeed ! Kinda like the US Presidential debates except instead of having questions that will pit one against another , have questions about how they themselves feel about Ballots , Drones , and any other legitimate flying hobby concern . So far only Frank has come here to answer questions so I may ask him what he thinks about the counting of ballots but without the other candidate's views it still wouldn't be making an informed decision on who to vote for with only one candidates input . At present , the voting over at my poll thread is running 16 for the outside count VS 8 for the in house , twice as many members by this small sample's results ....

init4fun

Um , Tim ? Buddy ? No one peed on anything to do with the AMA and no one called for the removal of anyone's moderator status here . Your last sentence , the same thing I've been trying to get across for pretty much the entire conversation , is that yes sir folks are human , it's what we're made of , and sometimes those humans make bad judgement calls like altering ballot results but that is in no way any kinds of slap at the organization whose ballots were altered ! People make bad judgement calls . It happens . When it happens with ballot impropriety , a proactive organization will take steps to see it never happens again . You do realize that in the past an AMA vote was compromised , yes ? Not just "allegations" but real and actual voting fraud ? If it happened once it could happen again if the same conditions are present ; opportunity and someone willing to seize that opportunity . Which goes right back full circle to 98 ish % of folks being honest , with the 1 or 2 ish % who would take advantage wearing no "scarlet letter" with which to be identified .

Trust , but Verify .....

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

It would be an interesting idea and for those unable to attend have the transcript preserve here. Gee, we agree on something the idea is DOOM! ;-)

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

init,
i can not speak to what the AMA does, but, the folks i am associated with, when we buy our ballot material, it comes with tracking code numbers already printed. otherwise blanks space everywhere else. we, our out of house folks, then print the actual ballot information, who what where to send completed ballots and all that.
all anyone actually knows is the start number for the code, and the range of the code numbers in a given shipment of ballots. having seen the process first hand, they do not attempt to run the ballots through the printer in order, just whichever packet of material is handy when needed.

again, i got no idea how AMA does theirs, but would be surprised if it wasn't similar, even for in house voting.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

It wasn't even close to a personal attack, notwithstanding the opportunistic righteous indignation.

but quite honestly this is a new low, to accuse the HQ staff of rigging an election or trashing your ballot.

You didn't dismiss or diminish or downplay his "feelings", he made a specif allegation that his ballot would be thrown in the garbage without being counted.

It's doubtful anyone here in this thread wasn't in the thread where Ken announced your appointment to the AMA's DVP spot in FL, a position you voluntarily filled, stepping in when the need was present. Normally something that should and would be lauded. Now it's used as some type of weapon, which is disappointing. You're entitled to your opinion just as every other person here is, notwithstanding a voluntary position you hold.

TheEdge

My Feedback: (788)

Hence, the Porcia agenda.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

No need to suppose, asked and answered in a previous post by me in this thread. It was one of the questions I asked when I saw with Dave, Bob, Rich, and Eric. If I don't know, I ask. Approximate cost, about $10,000 based on returned ballots from prior elections. It's a good bet that this election will result in higher voter turnout.

But to your specific question, how much. It doesn't seem like that's a concern for anyone yet, which is curious given all the complaints this year about expenses. It doesn't seem that any amount would be too much. Consider if even 20 or 30 or 40,000 ballots are returned. Consider the time and expense of not only counting those ballots, but cross checking and validating them.

Eliminate the risk of someone calling foul has been mentioned as the rationale for going outside. If there's one thing that can be learned from the past few years, it's that elminating complaints of "foul" or anything is simply impossible. There will always be complaints. No, I'm not talking about asking for ballot protocols, etc, I'm taking about complaints. I'm going to go back to the lapel pins as a prime example. The cost on those was nominal, and done as a "thank you", and yet it became the basis for at least a few people to complain about cost. Now consider 10, or 20, or even more money for an election which again, has to do with a voluntary position. Is there cost at which you would say no, this should be done in house?

We see from the EC notes that the CFO was making a concerted effort to cut expenses where possible, even going so far as to changing audit dates, or change banking institutions to to save a few thousand dollars.

As for the poll, over 270 people have viewed it, and 25 answered it, 16 in the affirmative. It's a fun poll, but anecdotal and hardly indicative of what the membership agrees about.

I think cost has to be factored in here as a major factor in the decision. Control numbers have been included to help keep it on the straight and level. I get the calls for more verification, but I think it comes at a steep price.

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

At $20,000.00 (twice what was last reportedly paid), that adds up to the princely sum of.........wait for it................wait for it..................ELEVEN cents per member!

Yep, I definitely say it is worth it to remove any impropriety from the election process.

Astro

rcmiket

It's worth it at a buck a member. Apparently we have plenty of money to spend of stuff "they" want to spend it on. Priorities are where ya place them.

Here's a couple.

http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/ama...february-2017/

http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/med...er-11-13-2016/



Mike

init4fun

Mongo , I thank you once again for bringing some clarity of how the Ballots are handled in other instances , rather than useless chatter such as what is posted in posts 117 and 119 : Standard , boiler plate stuff , discrediting a different thread containing a Poll , veiled accusations , and the rest of one person's "agenda" . I notice how the whole "How DARE you question the absolute infallibility of a Viet Nam veteran" tack taken yesterday has been completely abandoned once Franklin and myself each posted proof that Viet Nam veterans ARE human just like everyone else , subject to the same greatness and the same temptations as the rest of the population .

AMA election fraud HAS already once happened , and that's an ugly fact that can't be denied or swept under the rug by the fake indignation presented here yesterday under the shameless smokescreen guise of using someone's military service , or any other criteria , to prove infallibility . Gee , Franklin himself IS a veteran , does HE get the same infallibility rating as the Viet nam veteran on the EC that was dragged into this discussion by someone SO desperate to make a point that nothing is sacred , up to and including placing infallibility ratings on folks we really know nothing about ?

Trust , but Verify .....

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

Wait what? That would be about $150,000. That would be an acceptable amount to spend for an election for a non paid position. I've asked three times now on the DVP elections but so far no answer, should we also spend money on those elections?

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

I would rater see the $10,000, $20.000 or $100,000 mention spent on new flying sites and scholarships. Spending it on elections is a total waste.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

Totally agree, even more so since the position is an unpaid one. Money goes to new and existing flying sites, and absolutely goes to scholarships, one of our club members got $9500 this year! Keep in mind the programs are there, clubs and their leaders need to be proactive in applying for them.