AMA byLaw
10-13-2016, 04:04 AM
#26
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So much for the OP's premise,
In a nonprofit (because of its tax exempt status), assets cannot be distributed to business members since such distribution would violate the nonprofit status of the company. You are not permitted to give away or sell the assets of a nonprofit; rather you must transfer them to a similar nonprofit organization.
In a nonprofit (because of its tax exempt status), assets cannot be distributed to business members since such distribution would violate the nonprofit status of the company. You are not permitted to give away or sell the assets of a nonprofit; rather you must transfer them to a similar nonprofit organization.
10-13-2016, 04:17 AM
#27
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a place to start looking at how to dissolve a 501 C3...
https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/h...it-corporation
https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/h...it-corporation
10-13-2016, 04:37 AM
#28
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So much for the OP's premise,
In a nonprofit (because of its tax exempt status), assets cannot be distributed to business members since such distribution would violate the nonprofit status of the company. You are not permitted to give away or sell the assets of a nonprofit; rather you must transfer them to a similar nonprofit organization.
In a nonprofit (because of its tax exempt status), assets cannot be distributed to business members since such distribution would violate the nonprofit status of the company. You are not permitted to give away or sell the assets of a nonprofit; rather you must transfer them to a similar nonprofit organization.
Last edited by LJE4357; 10-13-2016 at 05:00 AM.
10-13-2016, 04:55 AM
#29
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If there is no other nonprofit similar to AMA, then what? If the AMA charter can't be changed to returned any assets to the members, then the members should have the ability that there portion, of the assets, go to a charity they choose. It's no different, that if a flying club, that's incorporated, there members get back the club's assets. When RC World Modelers shut down, that exactly what happen, but only after any expenses the club had to to paid. That club was a 501C. Everybody got there money back and then some.
Mike
10-13-2016, 04:57 AM
#30
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That's not what this issue is all about. AMA isn't near ready to shut down yet. As long as there are enough members to keep it running, there is no need to shut it down. This is about updating the 501C, that when the time comes, it closes down correctly. That way no lawyers have to get involved in a law suite. This all comes down to just plain old some common sense.
Mike
10-13-2016, 06:25 AM
#31
This issue was raised several years ago. It ended when when the question was asked "who are the persons on the Board of Directors of AMA Inc?" I don't doubt that there is some documentation somewhere to give rise to the issue, but it won't go anywhere until that simple question is answered.
I agree with you 100%. But, from the issues, that have come about lately, it looks like it's going to have to be done with an agency in law enforcement. The answer to that question is known, it just won't get publicized. The people trying to get the issue resolved for the members are having the computers ruined with Malware Virus, there phone's are being bugged. There emails are deleted. These issues are Federal Offenses. They are felony crimes. These are issues that are not made up, there is actual evidence. There is actual evidence on who sent a virus. The sender of virus made a grave mistake. It sends out his IP address. He can't hide it. It's just as bad as a finger print. Now the real question, how many people have that virus. Everybody that goes on that website. You will never find it, because it's not compiled. The good thing, is it can be removed, except ! Does AMA have anything to do with this? I hope not. But time will tell. 25 years ago this never would have happened. There was no Internet. We all remember IMAA, why was it formed? There was no internet when that happened.
The AMA has some very good people in it. But unfortunately sometimes some idiots get elected to run it. They tried to get the Drone guys to join. Drone isn't a model airplane. It's a dangerous toy anybody can fly in 5 minutes.They now have there own group, which is bigger that the AMA ever was, even if you took the the members since AMA started. But AMA members do it for life, the drone people will come and go. It's a fad, just like CB radio was. Remember what caused that problem. The federal government lowered the national speed limit to 55 MPH. AMA biggest problem, what going to happen in 10 to 20 years. Most of us will be dead. But there will be some modelers left. Things will have to change, but if it reaches that point, then that is what this issue is all about. We really don't know, but it doesn't hurt to make plans.
I'm sure somebody will come by and make a statement that this is all wrong. That's there prerogative. We all have our own opinions. And as long as were a free country, we can continue to do so. We change things when we vote ( sometimes).
The AMA has some very good people in it. But unfortunately sometimes some idiots get elected to run it. They tried to get the Drone guys to join. Drone isn't a model airplane. It's a dangerous toy anybody can fly in 5 minutes.They now have there own group, which is bigger that the AMA ever was, even if you took the the members since AMA started. But AMA members do it for life, the drone people will come and go. It's a fad, just like CB radio was. Remember what caused that problem. The federal government lowered the national speed limit to 55 MPH. AMA biggest problem, what going to happen in 10 to 20 years. Most of us will be dead. But there will be some modelers left. Things will have to change, but if it reaches that point, then that is what this issue is all about. We really don't know, but it doesn't hurt to make plans.
I'm sure somebody will come by and make a statement that this is all wrong. That's there prerogative. We all have our own opinions. And as long as were a free country, we can continue to do so. We change things when we vote ( sometimes).
10-13-2016, 06:53 AM
#33
This could be true . Just as it could be true that there could be something behind Larry's allegations . And I believe the man has at least the right to have his allegations heard before I go deciding if any tin foil hats are being worn . I would do the same for both you pkoury and you Dokesflyer , and anyone else who had what they felt was a legitimate "someone done me wrong" story to tell . Especially someone like Larry who has been an RCU member since 2002 , or you pkoury with your 2003 vintage yes I'd be far more inclined to want to hear what someone with that kind of years here had to say if they were discussing a problem they believed they were having . A new sign up could be anyone and have all kinds of axes to grind by telling outlandish tales but a longtime established member is far more likely in my opinion to be coming from a position of believing something is wrong and wanting their story told VS being someone looking to give the proverbial Hornet's nest that big ol kick just because .
I would like to hear Larry's "Reader's Digest" version of his problem , in clear and concise language with no vague "he said/she said" distractions and decide for myself how believable it all sounds . I really would do the same for any one of you fellow RCU posters and see no reason why Larry shouldn't be afforded the same chance to have his story heard .
10-13-2016, 06:59 AM
#34
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Actually our club (also incorporated and a 501 (c) 3) had that provision in our by-laws about the membership receiving assets if the club dissolved. We were informed that I could not be done and it needed to go to another non-profit and our by-laws changed accordingly.
Mike
Mike
10-13-2016, 07:08 AM
#35
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This could be true . Just as it could be true that there could be something behind Larry's allegations . And I believe the man has at least the right to have his allegations heard before I go deciding if any tin foil hats are being worn . I would do the same for both you pkoury and you Dokesflyer , and anyone else who had what they felt was a legitimate "someone done me wrong" story to tell . Especially someone like Larry who has been an RCU member since 2002 , or you pkoury with your 2003 vintage yes I'd be far more inclined to want to hear what someone with that kind of years here had to say if they were discussing a problem they believed they were having . A new sign up could be anyone and have all kinds of axes to grind by telling outlandish tales but a longtime established member is far more likely in my opinion to be coming from a position of believing something is wrong and wanting their story told VS being someone looking to give the proverbial Hornet's nest that big ol kick just because .
I would like to hear Larry's "Reader's Digest" version of his problem , in clear and concise language with no vague "he said/she said" distractions and decide for myself how believable it all sounds . I really would do the same for any one of you fellow RCU posters and see no reason why Larry shouldn't be afforded the same chance to have his story heard .
I would like to hear Larry's "Reader's Digest" version of his problem , in clear and concise language with no vague "he said/she said" distractions and decide for myself how believable it all sounds . I really would do the same for any one of you fellow RCU posters and see no reason why Larry shouldn't be afforded the same chance to have his story heard .
It's like a nuclear hand grenade. It destroys everything for 500 ft. But you can only throw it 50 ft.
Last edited by LJE4357; 10-13-2016 at 07:50 AM.
10-13-2016, 07:11 AM
#36
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If there is no other nonprofit similar to AMA, then what? If the AMA charter can't be changed to returned any assets to the members, then the members should have the ability that there portion, of the assets, go to a charity they choose. It's no different, that if a flying club, that's incorporated, there members get back the club's assets. When RC World Modelers shut down, that exactly what happen, but only after any expenses the club had to to paid. That includes any expenses that the officers of the club acquired, while in office. That club was a 501C. Everybody got there money back and then some.
Then there is the AOPA, again, similar in nature to the AMA and EAA.
Another one, Experience Aviation. They partner with schools to build STEM schools and point folks towards careers in aviation.
The list is literally endless.
Again, the OP's premise or "concern" is flawed, and appears unwarranted. Perhaps it was asked out of a lack of awareness, or for perhaps other reasons. When something like this is done, the cynic in me usually looks for recently departed members. The realist in me considers how virtually impossible it would be to divvy up the assets of a suddenly defunct entity that has been around for 80 years in a fair and reasonable manner. Do first year members get the same as lifers? How about people who were involved for 20 years and then dropped out. How about members for 20 years, then out for 5, then back for 3...etc etc etc.
At the end of the day, there's is a 99.99% chance this would never happen. But .01% wonders what if....
10-13-2016, 07:53 AM
#37
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Actually, there is one, it's the EAA. Structured very much like the AMA, with the same goals in mind, to promote and advocate aviation. Their dues structure is similar to ours, and oddly enough their membership numbers are almost identical to ours as well.
Then there is the AOPA, again, similar in nature to the AMA and EAA.
Another one, Experience Aviation. They partner with schools to build STEM schools and point folks towards careers in aviation.
The list is literally endless.
Again, the OP's premise or "concern" is flawed, and appears unwarranted. Perhaps it was asked out of a lack of awareness, or for perhaps other reasons. When something like this is done, the cynic in me usually looks for recently departed members. The realist in me considers how virtually impossible it would be to divvy up the assets of a suddenly defunct entity that has been around for 80 years in a fair and reasonable manner. Do first year members get the same as lifers? How about people who were involved for 20 years and then dropped out. How about members for 20 years, then out for 5, then back for 3...etc etc etc.
At the end of the day, there's is a 99.99% chance this would never happen. But .01% wonders what if....
Then there is the AOPA, again, similar in nature to the AMA and EAA.
Another one, Experience Aviation. They partner with schools to build STEM schools and point folks towards careers in aviation.
The list is literally endless.
Again, the OP's premise or "concern" is flawed, and appears unwarranted. Perhaps it was asked out of a lack of awareness, or for perhaps other reasons. When something like this is done, the cynic in me usually looks for recently departed members. The realist in me considers how virtually impossible it would be to divvy up the assets of a suddenly defunct entity that has been around for 80 years in a fair and reasonable manner. Do first year members get the same as lifers? How about people who were involved for 20 years and then dropped out. How about members for 20 years, then out for 5, then back for 3...etc etc etc.
At the end of the day, there's is a 99.99% chance this would never happen. But .01% wonders what if....
If this issue isn't that big, them why are the AMA leaders so concerned about it. I have asked them that, and can't get an answer.
Also, What's the value in assets is the AMA worth today? Just look at the land and the buildings, forget what inside. The money that was used to purchased it, most came from members annual dues. I been a member for 63 years. I payed the dues for 100% of that time period, How many other members have been in AMA 10 years or longer, or any number of years. Members made AMA not donations.
Most of us who fall in that category probably won't be around. But you never know.
Last edited by LJE4357; 10-13-2016 at 08:04 AM.
10-13-2016, 08:08 AM
#38
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If this issue isn't that big, them why are the AMA leaders so concerned about it. I have asked them that, and can't get an answer.
Also, What's the value in assets is the AMA worth today? Just look at the land and the buildings, forget what inside. The money that was used to purchased it, most came from members annual dues. I been a member for 63 years. I payed the dues for 100% of that time period, How many other members have been in AMA 10 years or longer, or any number of years. Members made AMA not donations.
Most of us who fall in that category probably won't be around. But you never know.
Also, What's the value in assets is the AMA worth today? Just look at the land and the buildings, forget what inside. The money that was used to purchased it, most came from members annual dues. I been a member for 63 years. I payed the dues for 100% of that time period, How many other members have been in AMA 10 years or longer, or any number of years. Members made AMA not donations.
Most of us who fall in that category probably won't be around. But you never know.
https://nonprofitquarterly.org/2009/...ing-the-doors/
Distributing Assets
The critical task of the disposition of assets must meet the standards of the Internal Revenue Service Code and any applicable state laws. In general, a nonprofit’s assets may not be distributed to a board of directors, staff, or other organizational insiders. Most states require that an organization’s assets be distributed to other charitable organizations or governmental bodies. These laws ensure that assets amassed for charitable or other nonprofit activities continue to be used for similar purposes.
The asset distribution component should delineate how all organizational assets will be distributed to other organizations or parties, including programs, cash, investments, equipment, supplies, and facilities. An asset distribution document should also include an organization’s programs and services as an asset. It may be able to identify other organizations that can adopt its programs, especially if a funding stream is associated with these programs. Thinking through which programs can be passed on may also keep some staff employed and part of the organization alive. This can be part of preserving an organization’s legacy. In the event that the preferred plan for the distribution of assets doesn’t work out, it’s also prudent to develop an alternate plan.
I'm not sure just what loop holes "In general" could mean.
Mike
Last edited by rcmiket; 10-13-2016 at 08:33 AM.
10-13-2016, 09:09 AM
#39
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If this issue isn't that big, them why are the AMA leaders so concerned about it. I have asked them that, and can't get an answer.
Also, What's the value in assets is the AMA worth today? Just look at the land and the buildings, forget what inside. The money that was used to purchased it, most came from members annual dues. I been a member for 63 years. I payed the dues for 100% of that time period, How many other members have been in AMA 10 years or longer, or any number of years. Members made AMA not donations.
Most of us who fall in that category probably won't be around. But you never know.
Also, What's the value in assets is the AMA worth today? Just look at the land and the buildings, forget what inside. The money that was used to purchased it, most came from members annual dues. I been a member for 63 years. I payed the dues for 100% of that time period, How many other members have been in AMA 10 years or longer, or any number of years. Members made AMA not donations.
Most of us who fall in that category probably won't be around. But you never know.
The financial documents published by the AMA give a pretty good idea of the financials of the AMA, nothing appears hidden or covert. Both members and their dues have "made" the AMA, as well as the different leaders throughout the 80 years. Nobody gets to claim ownership of that.
This sure feels more like a tempest in a teapot.....
10-13-2016, 09:45 AM
#40
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At this time I can not divulge who made this issue come up. But if you contact the last 2 District 5 VP's I'm sure they know what going on. If they will talk about it. I doubt the AMA president will. MIke I'm also a LM
10-13-2016, 10:09 AM
#42
At this time I cannot post all the complete issues, but it's will happen. This just didn't start a few months ago. It started 10 years ago. It just took that long to get to this point. INIT4FUN, my email address is on my profile. Send me an email that I can answer back, and I can give you a bit more information that's important. It just not ready to post on here yet. I looked at your profile and don't see an email address. If you can't do that, then you will have to wait until I can post the rest on here. Let me give you something to think about. If you can write something on the internet, anybody else can do the same thing. That includes changing something you wrote. A good hacker can get a virus on your computer that allows him to get on your computer anyplace you can as long as your online. If your computer is hooked up to the modem that keeps you on line 100% of the time as long as your power is turned on to the computer, he has access to your computer, and can change anything you wrote up or any data you created . There is no such thing as 100% security today on the internet. Malware Virus are very dangerous. But they can also be deadly to the person that sent them. Depends on the knowledge that you have about computer's and software. This is an issue that's just starting to explode. In 5 years it's probably going to be the biggest issue in the history of mankind. Nobody will have any privacy, and that includes the people that cause the problems.
It's like a nuclear hand grenade. It destroys everything for 500 ft. But you can only throw it 50 ft.
It's like a nuclear hand grenade. It destroys everything for 500 ft. But you can only throw it 50 ft.
Hi Larry , With all due respect and I hope you understand , I do not do anything RCU wise out of sight of the public eye . This is a public discussion forum and when you made your allegation of someone tampering with your computer you made that allegation public by posting it in open forum , as thus now should all further mention of it should be . For you to PM me something denies the rest of the board the chance to see and decide for themselves if your allegation has merit or not . Would it really be fair to all the other respondents to this thread to be denied seeing the proof you want only me to see in private ? Now , if your not ready to completely disclose the details of your allegation publicly that's fine , I'd suggest you take some time and a deep breath , put the whole thing down on paper and then condense that rough draft down to it's salient points and then come publish what you want us all to read .
I am serious here , I promise you I will give your story my fair and unbiased consideration , but it's gotta be brief , believable , and bearable as to it's burden of proof on you , if I am ever to come to believe your story .
Thank You .
10-13-2016, 10:25 AM
#43
If this issue isn't that big, them why are the AMA leaders so concerned about it. I have asked them that, and can't get an answer.
Also, What's the value in assets is the AMA worth today? Just look at the land and the buildings, forget what inside. The money that was used to purchased it, most came from members annual dues. I been a member for 63 years. I payed the dues for 100% of that time period, How many other members have been in AMA 10 years or longer, or any number of years. Members made AMA not donations.
Most of us who fall in that category probably won't be around. But you never know.
Also, What's the value in assets is the AMA worth today? Just look at the land and the buildings, forget what inside. The money that was used to purchased it, most came from members annual dues. I been a member for 63 years. I payed the dues for 100% of that time period, How many other members have been in AMA 10 years or longer, or any number of years. Members made AMA not donations.
Most of us who fall in that category probably won't be around. But you never know.
Since there appears to be laws preventing any one person or group of persons within the AMA from "ridin off into the sunset" with all the cash in the highly unlikely event of the AMA disbanding , I do have to believe that those laws will see to the fair distribution of the assets as the others have said , namely that they will be donated to a similar 501c . We , as members did most certainly "build" the AMA but we don't own stock in it such that we would be entitled to anything upon it's collapse . That's why the money we give is considered "club dues" , we get the benefit of being AMA members for the year without becoming 1 in 1/175000th percent shareholders in the AMA . Think about it for a second here , if we really were , all 175K of us , actual shareholders wouldn't that make us all personally responsible if God forbid a horrible RC crash led to a multimillion dollar judgement against the AMA ?
10-13-2016, 10:51 AM
#44
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Now as to this , here's my thoughts for better or worse ;
Since there appears to be laws preventing any one person or group of persons within the AMA from "ridin off into the sunset" with all the cash in the highly unlikely event of the AMA disbanding , I do have to believe that those laws will see to the fair distribution of the assets as the others have said , namely that they will be donated to a similar 501c . We , as members did most certainly "build" the AMA but we don't own stock in it such that we would be entitled to anything upon it's collapse . That's why the money we give is considered "club dues" , we get the benefit of being AMA members for the year without becoming 1 in 1/175000th percent shareholders in the AMA . Think about it for a second here , if we really were , all 175K of us , actual shareholders wouldn't that make us all personally responsible if God forbid a horrible RC crash led to a multimillion dollar judgement against the AMA ?
Since there appears to be laws preventing any one person or group of persons within the AMA from "ridin off into the sunset" with all the cash in the highly unlikely event of the AMA disbanding , I do have to believe that those laws will see to the fair distribution of the assets as the others have said , namely that they will be donated to a similar 501c . We , as members did most certainly "build" the AMA but we don't own stock in it such that we would be entitled to anything upon it's collapse . That's why the money we give is considered "club dues" , we get the benefit of being AMA members for the year without becoming 1 in 1/175000th percent shareholders in the AMA . Think about it for a second here , if we really were , all 175K of us , actual shareholders wouldn't that make us all personally responsible if God forbid a horrible RC crash led to a multimillion dollar judgement against the AMA ?
Last edited by LJE4357; 10-13-2016 at 11:55 AM.
10-13-2016, 12:52 PM
#45
Ok, this has gone on long enough. I've allowed this thread to go proceed against my better judgement, but it has gone on now into it's second page. But I'm quickly growing tired of the way it's going. LJE4357 keeps telling everybody that he knows about all this information that will prove everything, but can't tell anybody. As Init4fun stated above, this is a public discussion forum. Don't come on here telling everybody that you have all these secrets and then stop talking. Either you tell everybody what you have to say or I am going to close this thread down. It's that simple. I have a very low tolerance for all these "spooks behind every rock" conspiracy theories. So if you can't post here in the forum don't come here and talk about them. Period.
Ken
Ken
10-14-2016, 08:56 AM
#46
Ok guys. Some of you may have noticed that the post made by LJE4357 and replies have been removed. There is a good reason this has been done. That is because this is the AMA Forum. This posting made by LJE4357 made many allegations towards Jim Graham at RC Groups. First, that is off topic for this forum and second, since Jim has no chance to defend himself against any of those allegations they have no place here. I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but in the context they are made we here at RCU take such actions very seriously. This forum is here to discuss the AMA. If you wish to discuss the AMA then you are more than welcome to do so. However, if you want to try to drag in other subjects into that discussion the outcome will be the same as has just happened here. The post will be removed. If anybody has any questions concerning this action I will be more than happy to discuss this with them by PM.
Ken
Ken
10-14-2016, 09:29 AM
#47
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I just started to write this out, and while Im doing it it's being changed. I will come back later and post it in pieces. It's the only way it can't be changed. Ken I just read what you said The guys ask for the truth. I have no other way to tell it. If it can't be done on this thread can it be done anywhere on RCG. Everything I say happened on RCG I printed it all out when it happened. Why don't you call AMA and ask them what this is all about, then tell us what they say. I can also get all the others that have been hacked on here and they can tell all of us the problems there having. I tried to stop this, but as long as I have the evidence they won't quit.
Last edited by LJE4357; 10-14-2016 at 09:40 AM.
10-14-2016, 09:31 AM
#48
Hi Ken , That sounds fair to me , I had much skepticism of how both JTG and the FBI tied in to any of this with the AMA and since no proof was provided by Larry I can see exactly why you deleted it .
Now , as to the AMA part of this discussion , Larry I will ask you to provide a link to the portion of the AMA bylaws that you say entitles the EC to keep all but 10% of the AMA's assets should the AMA disband . That is the basis behind what your upset about and it appears no one but you here have been able to locate the portion of the bylaws that says that . Posting proof that the AMA bylaws do indeed say what you say they do will provide the first nugget of proof if your story is ever to be believed .
10-14-2016, 10:57 AM
#49
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Hi Ken , That sounds fair to me , I had much skepticism of how both JTG and the FBI tied in to any of this with the AMA and since no proof was provided by Larry I can see exactly why you deleted it .
Now , as to the AMA part of this discussion , Larry I will ask you to provide a link to the portion of the AMA bylaws that you say entitles the EC to keep all but 10% of the AMA's assets should the AMA disband . That is the basis behind what your upset about and it appears no one but you here have been able to locate the portion of the bylaws that says that . Posting proof that the AMA bylaws do indeed say what you say they do will provide the first nugget of proof if your story is ever to be believed .
I'm done
Last edited by LJE4357; 10-14-2016 at 11:28 AM.
10-14-2016, 11:36 AM
#50
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This whole thread is absurd. The tax law does not allow a 501(c)(3) organization to distribute its assets to its members when it dissolves, as several posters have pointed out. The AMA is not going to dissolve in the foreseeable future anyway, especially now that the FAA has made AMA membership (or perhaps just following all AMA rules) the only currently available way to avoid onerous restrictions on our flying. On my planet, the FBI does not investigate people who claim the AMA is about to dissolve and give its assets to the board members, and messages people post on sites like this do not get changed by mysterious hackers while they are being typed.
This is a sad case. But this isn't the place for the guy to get the help he needs.
This is a sad case. But this isn't the place for the guy to get the help he needs.
