Seems to me
11-02-2016, 03:51 AM
#52
Well, a large majority of modelers think it's because of AMA including them in our regular modeling membership is the reason that we now have FAA regs to contend with and for one I agree with them. The majority of the drones that are out there are just toys with owners that don't give a crap about rules. I know there are those that are responsible people but they are the minority.
11-02-2016, 03:59 AM
#53
He was flying via FPV BLOS. This is against AMA and FAA rules (without the proper credentials, etc.)
THAT is why he grabbed the attention, it wasn't because he was flying fixed-wing.
Remember, those of us that are calling for separation, are calling for separation of the technology (BLOS, autonomous), NOT for separation from MR.
Astro
THAT is why he grabbed the attention, it wasn't because he was flying fixed-wing.
Remember, those of us that are calling for separation, are calling for separation of the technology (BLOS, autonomous), NOT for separation from MR.
Astro
That was before there were any rules about BLOS. They cited him for flying dangerously, the Judge threw it out. Adminstrative judges overruled that Judge, but only on the grounds that the FAA has no jurisdiction on model airplanes. The defendant was still going to defend himself on grounds that FAR Part 91 clearly did not cover model airplanes. The FAA backed off and settled for a much smaller fine. I don't think flying BLOS was even an issue.
11-02-2016, 04:04 AM
#54
And yet there's all sorts of additional "unwanted attention" waiting to happen... in District V of all places!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYecj5jYCIA
A fine example of AMA self regulation at work - openly flaunting AMA's turbine speed limit, overflight of non-participating people, overflight of structures, overflight of busy highways. But this waiver holder doesn't stop there, he's also ignoring the AMA's BLOS rule by flying his DJI three miles away! Starting from Lake Point Towers in Palm Beach Florida.
Not only is this waiver holder setting the example on compliance, he's also flying BLOS under the lateral limits of the Palm Beach Class C airspace. Let's see. Beaches, good weather, not like there's any VFR FW or Helo's evr operate below 1200 over water near the beach.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivPMLB_DJtQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYecj5jYCIA
A fine example of AMA self regulation at work - openly flaunting AMA's turbine speed limit, overflight of non-participating people, overflight of structures, overflight of busy highways. But this waiver holder doesn't stop there, he's also ignoring the AMA's BLOS rule by flying his DJI three miles away! Starting from Lake Point Towers in Palm Beach Florida.
Not only is this waiver holder setting the example on compliance, he's also flying BLOS under the lateral limits of the Palm Beach Class C airspace. Let's see. Beaches, good weather, not like there's any VFR FW or Helo's evr operate below 1200 over water near the beach.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivPMLB_DJtQ
11-02-2016, 04:04 AM
#55
Banned
My Feedback: (8)
That was before there were any rules about BLOS. They cited him for flying dangerously, the Judge threw it out. Adminstrative judges overruled that Judge, but only on the grounds that the FAA has no jurisdiction on model airplanes. The defendant was still going to defend himself on grounds that FAR Part 91 clearly did not cover model airplanes. The FAA backed off and settled for a much smaller fine. I don't think flying BLOS was even an issue.
11-02-2016, 04:16 AM
#56
It's great to want to set examples and all, but a process should be followed, and that process shouldn't involve yanking a waiver or pulling an AMA membership because of a video. Not saying that's going to happen here, but I wouldn't be shocked to see that be the natural progression of where this conversation might be going. First it's the turbines, next we'll have folks reporting all types of youtube videos and wanting action taken on those too. The whole concept of due process comes to mind. And also, since I'm sure that a punishment/public display of same will work it's way into the conversation, I'll go ahead and say no, unless that's part of an agreed upon process.
11-02-2016, 04:27 AM
#57
Then there are the guys that live and breath the role and just sit and watch for the smallest possible issues and make it a big deal.
11-02-2016, 04:31 AM
#58
Banned
My Feedback: (8)
Due process is required for the government. It is not required for the AMA or any other membership organization. That said, the AMA should be able to prove who the person in the video is, that they are an AMA member, and do not have a turbine waiver. After being able to prove this they should kick him out and report him to the FAA.
Hopefully someone talks to the guy and reminds him about safe operation, and he learns from that and takes corrective action, which is the outcome all would hope for.
11-02-2016, 04:47 AM
#61
Banned
My Feedback: (8)
Is this a one strike rule kind of thing? No second change, no corrective action, just poof...gone? Are you telling me you've never seen anyone at your club break a rule? Would the same thing apply for that person? There's no middle ground for this guy, just right to banishment?
11-02-2016, 04:53 AM
#62
Oh I've already been corrected on the due process issue by Franklin. Pedantry issues aside, I completely agree. I think Franklin just wants the guys waiver to be pulled, and probably his AMA membership as well, you know, to set an example. Safety first. If it's not the MR/Drones, it's got to be something else that can be used as a battering ram against the AMA. Based on a video online. It's incontrovertible proof! And there was this one time the guy said he did 269 miles per hour too (look past the fact that he didn't say when, or where, or if it was at a club, or in this country, or he was just boasting...etc etc etc). No, let's play judge and jury from the sidelines (hmm....a trend) and teach this guy a lesson. Well he finally got someone to look into it so all is well. I don't suspect he will like the outcome though, as it probably won't be public, no ticket pulled, no scarlet letter.
Hopefully someone talks to the guy and reminds him about safe operation, and he learns from that and takes corrective action, which is the outcome all would hope for.
Hopefully someone talks to the guy and reminds him about safe operation, and he learns from that and takes corrective action, which is the outcome all would hope for.
11-02-2016, 05:07 AM
#63
No, it was flying over people and very close to them, almost hitting one person. I don't think the FAA even mentioned BLOS. If you are talking about yourself and others, well I don't think one person can say why most people were interested in the story.
11-02-2016, 05:08 AM
#64
Is this a one strike rule kind of thing? No second change, no corrective action, just poof...gone? Are you telling me you've never seen anyone at your club break a rule? Would the same thing apply for that person? There's no middle ground for this guy, just right to banishment?
11-02-2016, 05:09 AM
#65
Banned
My Feedback: (8)
Whatever name we assigned the "process", it should be a fair one. I don't think watching one video and kicking someone out of a two organizations is fair. No damages were caused to person or property, and it's possible to have a "teachable" moment here and not go to defcon 1 right out of the gate.
11-02-2016, 05:24 AM
#66
For most violations I would agree. But if what the video seems to show is true then I believe he should be banned form the AMA for at least a year, This is because a jet turbine can cause much more damage than even a giant scale gasser. And to boot it actually is on the border line of not being an FAA legal model aircraft. The FAA is allowing that with a waiver from the AMA. If AMA clubs or the AMA itself is ignoring that someone is flying jet turbines without a waiver, then the waiver is not worth scat. So then the waiver process means nothing, and when the FAA finds that out they would likely make flying jet turbines completely illegal. So this is too serious to allow this person to remain a member.
11-02-2016, 05:30 AM
#67
What I'm pointing out this that this is a pattern of behavior. That alone justifies yanking his waiver if he has one. If he doesn't have a waiver, then why is he being permitted by others (also presumably AMA members since they're flying at a field that requires it)? That my friend is a safety culture problem. Not just with the individual (he's the most egregious example though), but by all those who stood by and did nothing.
11-02-2016, 05:34 AM
#68
Is this a one strike rule kind of thing? No second change, no corrective action, just poof...gone? Are you telling me you've never seen anyone at your club break a rule? Would the same thing apply for that person? There's no middle ground for this guy, just right to banishment?
- Potentially flying w/o waiver
- Flying over parking lots w/ non-participating people
- Flying over buildings
- Flying over camping areas
- Flying over busy highway interchanges
- Flying in excess of AMA speed limit
- Potentially busting lower limit of class C outer ring around Ft. Lauderdale (field located under it, if he went above 1200 feet then he was in class C)
- Failure to follow local safety rules (taxing past posted no taxi line)
11-02-2016, 06:12 AM
#69
Banned
My Feedback: (8)
For most violations I would agree. But if what the video seems to show is true then I believe he should be banned form the AMA for at least a year, This is because a jet turbine can cause much more damage than even a giant scale gasser. And to boot it actually is on the border line of not being an FAA legal model aircraft. The FAA is allowing that with a waiver from the AMA. If AMA clubs or the AMA itself is ignoring that someone is flying jet turbines without a waiver, then the waiver is not worth scat. So then the waiver process means nothing, and when the FAA finds that out they would likely make flying jet turbines completely illegal. So this is too serious to allow this person to remain a member.
11-02-2016, 06:19 AM
#70
Banned
My Feedback: (8)
You must have missed it when Andy said it was at Markham Park Florida, where AMA membership is required to fly. You must have also missed where I showed the same pilot posting video of his DJI Phantom at 3 nautical miles away, over the beach and out to sea, under the class C airspace in Ft. Lauderdale. Not like there's any VFR traffic at low altitude over beaches and/or just offshore.
What I'm pointing out this that this is a pattern of behavior. That alone justifies yanking his waiver if he has one. If he doesn't have a waiver, then why is he being permitted by others (also presumably AMA members since they're flying at a field that requires it)? That my friend is a safety culture problem. Not just with the individual (he's the most egregious example though), but by all those who stood by and did nothing.
What I'm pointing out this that this is a pattern of behavior. That alone justifies yanking his waiver if he has one. If he doesn't have a waiver, then why is he being permitted by others (also presumably AMA members since they're flying at a field that requires it)? That my friend is a safety culture problem. Not just with the individual (he's the most egregious example though), but by all those who stood by and did nothing.
We can all be deputized, might even get new shirt pins.
11-02-2016, 06:21 AM
#71
Banned
My Feedback: (8)
One rule?
- Potentially flying w/o waiver
- Flying over parking lots w/ non-participating people
- Flying over buildings
- Flying over camping areas
- Flying over busy highway interchanges
- Flying in excess of AMA speed limit
- Potentially busting lower limit of class C outer ring around Ft. Lauderdale (field located under it, if he went above 1200 feet then he was in class C)
- Failure to follow local safety rules (taxing past posted no taxi line)
- Potentially flying w/o waiver
- Flying over parking lots w/ non-participating people
- Flying over buildings
- Flying over camping areas
- Flying over busy highway interchanges
- Flying in excess of AMA speed limit
- Potentially busting lower limit of class C outer ring around Ft. Lauderdale (field located under it, if he went above 1200 feet then he was in class C)
- Failure to follow local safety rules (taxing past posted no taxi line)
Me: One Strike Rule.
You get the difference right?
11-02-2016, 06:21 AM
#72
Wait a sec, who is alleging that a club or the AMA is ignoring the fact that someone is flying without a waiver? For that matter who has confirmed that the club or the AMA knew that the guy was flying in this manner? It's been brought to their attention now...at least informally, but there is nothing I can see that indicates either entity knew or approved of this, tacitly or implicitly. I'm not sure I agree on the amount of damage being worse with a turbine, speed alone isn't a factor. Size and weight is also. I think the Mac Hodges plane could do more damage than a smaller turbine trainer jet could, but that's not really the issue...even a foamy can cause catastrophic damages/injuries in the right situation. I don't think any of us are in a position to decide what punishment, if any, should be meted out, but I get that we will have our opinions. Let the process work the way it should. The club should be the first involved, then the AMA if at all.
If they didn't notice that, and it was right in front of them, how in the world would they notice a light civil manned aircraft approaching?
11-02-2016, 06:24 AM
#73
Oh no I caught the video vigilantism....., all duly noted. Perhaps we'll figure out who stood next to him and allowed this to happen, and turn them in as well (assuming they are AMA members). This could lead to a new position in Muncie, someone to watch video submissions and do an NCIS level investigation to track folks down to see if they are AMA members.
We can all be deputized, might even get new shirt pins.
We can all be deputized, might even get new shirt pins.
11-02-2016, 06:30 AM
#75
You must have missed it when Andy said it was at Markham Park Florida, where AMA membership is required to fly. You must have also missed where I showed the same pilot posting video of his DJI Phantom at 3 nautical miles away, over the beach and out to sea, under the class C airspace in Ft. Lauderdale. Not like there's any VFR traffic at low altitude over beaches and/or just offshore.
What I'm pointing out this that this is a pattern of behavior. That alone justifies yanking his waiver if he has one. If he doesn't have a waiver, then why is he being permitted by others (also presumably AMA members since they're flying at a field that requires it)? That my friend is a safety culture problem. Not just with the individual (he's the most egregious example though), but by all those who stood by and did nothing.
What I'm pointing out this that this is a pattern of behavior. That alone justifies yanking his waiver if he has one. If he doesn't have a waiver, then why is he being permitted by others (also presumably AMA members since they're flying at a field that requires it)? That my friend is a safety culture problem. Not just with the individual (he's the most egregious example though), but by all those who stood by and did nothing.