BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

No kidding.

Here's the bottom line, get in trouble with the FAA for causing a problem with a manned aircraft, and it doesn't matter whether you're an AMA member or not, you're going to get hammered.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

Agree, as it should be. The punishment will hopefully fit the crime as well.

franklin_m

Andy,


While I’ve been critical of AMA, I’m genuinely encouraged that you’re looking into this.


Regardless of who’s flying, it sure looks like it’s being done from a club field. So either the club is allowing waiver holders to fly in such a way, or they’re allowing non-waiver holders to fly. Either points to a serious safety culture problem. Think back to your squadron days and imagine what wuld happen if AIRPAC saw video of one its squadrons flaunting the rules like this. There’s issues not just with the pilot doing it, but also with all those who knew it was wrong and tolerated it.


If things are as tenuous as alluded to in the last EC minutes, I really hope you’re able to track down the folks involved. It would be an excellent opportunity to send a clear signal.

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

Well, it's Markham Park, affectionately named "Mayhem Park" and it's not a club. Also, and this is something any AMA can find by logging in, assuming the videos are posted under his real name, he's NOT a turbine waiver holder.

This is the sort of behavior that threatens all of us that operate under the rules and I'm not taking it lightly.

franklin_m

Yep, I'd already looked up his name, and saw it wasn't there. However, I didn't know if his youtube was a 'nom de plume' or his real name, so I figured it would take more digging. Regardless though, a turbine pilot was flying and it sure would be nice to know if he's a waiver holder.

If indeed turbine compliance is under the microscope, as would appear from the EC minutes, then perhaps it's time to make an example? Your call of course, but I'd yank his qual and issue formal letter of warning to all the other waiver holders who knew or should have known and did nothing. Then write an article for JPO and MA talking about it (omit names for now), to "get the word out" and send a signal. The communication piece is critical....internal PR is often overlooked - especially when trying to change culture.

Andy, changing a culture is a hard thing to do. If it was, companies wouldn't hire me to come in and help. If there's one thing I consistently notice, it's a reluctance to take bold and clear action soon enough. Most companies nip at the edges and wonder why nothing changes. Because it's too easy for people to stay in their old ways. There comes a point sometimes where you have to shake the tree so hard it forces change. This is especially true when time is not a luxury, or when the consequences are big. Here's a good HBR article along those lines:

https://hbr.org/1999/07/turning-goal...tic-mechanisms

A while back, I'd offered GF to do an assessment of what are known as "control systems" - policy, procedure, etc. - for some of the higher risk activities. I'd use the tools I taught for NWC (Leading change) as well as tools I use now professionally. That offer was rejected. Now here we are a couple years down the line and struggling with the issues again. I'll offer again.

init4fun

According to their on line website , you not only have to be an AMA member , you also need an "annual membership"

Sure sounds like it fits most of the definition I know of what a club should be . So , in order to fly there the guy has to be an AMA member . Now , whether or not he has a proper turbine waver I do believe the guy has an AMA card and an "annual membership" to fly there , what I wonder here is what IS the punishment for an AMA member to fly a Turbine powered model in a reckless manner and without the required by AMA turbine waver ?

PS , and again sorry for the wavy picture but if you click on it you will be able to read that an AMA membership and an annual membership are required to fly there . It shouldn't be all that hard to track the guy down .....

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

I've seen stranger stuff, like I said, I'm looking into it.

init4fun

Thank You Andy .

I will say it seems an odd organizational structure , the field has it's own annual membership fee , requires AMA , and uses the terminology "Hosts many different clubs throughout the year" in one press release I read . Maybe the field itself is more a corporate entity than actual "Rc Club" as I am used to seeing and different clubs rent time there from the corporate owners ? Kinda like a "time share" RC field like the well known time share condos for a vacation spot ?

Gotta admit , even at this age , I learn something new every day .

rcmiket

I appreciate that as it affects all of us..

Thanks
Mike

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

It's great to want to set examples and all, but a process should be followed, and that process shouldn't involve yanking a waiver or pulling an AMA membership because of a video. Not saying that's going to happen here, but I wouldn't be shocked to see that be the natural progression of where this conversation might be going. First it's the turbines, next we'll have folks reporting all types of youtube videos and wanting action taken on those too. The whole concept of due process comes to mind. And also, since I'm sure that a punishment/public display of same will work it's way into the conversation, I'll go ahead and say no, unless that's part of an agreed upon process.

franklin_m

Well, are you proposing more of the same processes that are clearly not working? Due process? You're confusing judicial processes with administrative processes. Someone operating one of these is doing so on a waiver. If they can't follow the rules, and it's clear they don't, then what more would you need?

As I said above, if you have the luxury of time, then go ahead and waste more of it by doing more of the same and HOPING for a different result. I think that's unlikely here...did you notice at the very end of the video the operator didn't even obey their own rule for no taxing past the bright yellow line / stop sign that clearly says no taxing?

Why the reluctance to take administrative action? Is holding people accountable that frightening? You've got a jet traveling 285 feet per second over a busy transition between a state route and an interstate highway. You've got a jet that can travel the length of the runway after loss of signal before the ending even shuts down. And that's only if they're following that rule, which would be stretch since they don't seem to be following other ones. And it's flying over occupied parking lots, buildings, etc.

What's worse is that it is either an AMA member or they're letting folks fly in violation of the rules. Even worse is all the other AMA members that are there, some of whom were probably watching. Why did they allow it? Why did they not intervene? Why wasn't the dangerous behavior reported to Andy before this? Lots of question, none of them look good with respect to compliance or safety culture. And all dealing with some that can cause considerable damage and injury doing what they're doing.

franklin_m

It's interesting that at the very end, you see a big red stop sign saying no taxiing past that point (co-located with a bright yellow line across the taxiway), and they don't even follow that rule.

franklin_m

Hey Andy, here's an exchange lower on the same YouTube page. Sure looks like it was Freddie piloting. If that's his name then apparently doing so w/o a waiver. He's also boasting of owning one that flies even faster.

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

We all know that self policing involves folks that are invested in the hobby getting involved. Perhaps there's a feeling that they have no place to tell someone what or what not to do, perhaps there's a belief that if they have a jet they posses a waiver. I'm not sure what's going on down there but like I have said, I'm looking into it.

I've gotten looks before, by people that don't know who I am, for checking a waiver on an unfamiliar pilot attempting to fly a turbine at our field. I was doing that as a waiver holder and club officer long before I was a DVP though.

init4fun

Franklin , I thought the same thing when I saw the model roll right on past the stop sign , that right till the very end of the flight the guy broke the rules . Now as to talk of punishment , if there is such a thing as an AMA member Turbine waiver required to fly such a craft , there must also be some prescribed penalty for what happens when an AMA member flies a Turbine without a waiver , right ? I also gotta believe that if the field does require an AMA card to fly there that the field owner/management believes all who are flying there are following the AMA safety code while flying there , Surely they must have procedures in place to deal with safety violations , yes ?

And no , I'm not advocating the torches & pitchforks come out in force , unless once made publicly aware that the behavior on that video is unsafe the flyer refuses to renounce his actions . No one was hurt and with the idea being to keep anyone from getting hurt a stern reminder of the Safety Code should be enough to curtail the unsafe flight activities , and if not well then heck yes , THEN ya can "Book em , Dano" ...

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

I said what I said, and pedantry aside the concept of due process fits both the judicial and administrative theme/process as noted here. You finally have someone listening to you here, and I can see the build up and where this will lead, so I'll skip the million question/answer thing since no matter what I'll say, it won't be accepted. It seems to me like you feel this is an some type of everyday occurrence epidemic that must be eradicated immediately, and you have noted your frustration and being ignored in the past. Hopefully that will change for you now. I don't disagree that folks should follow the rules, and if they don't, they should be held accountable. Folks flying with this guy or others in similar situations are at least partially to blame too for not taking some type of action. I can only say I won't be spending my time looking for online videos to report in to people and hope that action gets taken. I deal with the safety issues that I see at the fields I fly at. For example, we had a swap meet this past Sunday and had about 75 people show up. All types of aircraft being sold. Two guys at two different times fired up quads and lifted off the ground. The people around them did nothing, until I headed over to tell them to knock it off. I get it, they figured what's the big deal, we're just testing it. Except it's in the parking lot of the field. 50 feet away is a perfectly good safe spot set aside just for quads. Last week I landed into a tough crosswind and because of the way our field is set up, let the plane wander too far in past one flight station (not the one I was at), and sure enough, someone behind me said "you're not supposed to taxi in the pits", and he was right.

Overall we are a self policing club and organization, not saying it can't get better in some instances, but for me we are all safety officers and have a responsibility to enforce the rules on the books.

franklin_m

I didn't go looking for this, I stumbled over it while looking for a FPV video on something else. With respect to everyone being accountable, what you and Andy both described is an example of a healthy safety culture. What Andy did by checking for waivers and what your fellow club member did with you are called "interventions." While I think many members generally operate safely, there's too many examples like this out there where the opposite is true. Unfortunately, it's not small foamies, but large, heavy, and fast aircraft.

The issue comes down to a matter of urgency. If you believe the hobby could withstand someone like this crashing into buy I-75, then ok. Do it your way. On the other hand, if that's unacceptable or time is not a luxury, then it's time for someone to take the initiative and act.

Perhaps it's my professional development as a Naval officer. I spent my entire commissioned career living under an expectation to take bold and decisive action when confronted with issues like this. Now, in fairness, I'm operating under the presumption that the EC discussion about behavior in this community represents a larger and more pervasive problem. In which case, it seems there's some urgency to change behaviors/culture. Quick change is not with out pain. Sometimes you have to make examples. This seems to be a perfect opportunity - provided it's supported with a communications plan as well.

Mind you, this approach is based on my training and years managing high risk operations, but here's what I'd do if I were Andy. First, find the operator and yank his turbine waiver (crush the offender - cause of the problem). Second, meet with the club and put out word that if this non-compliance w/ AMA rules does not stop immediately, then AMA will work with the land owner to shut down operations (shot across the bow to drive immediate culture change). Third, require mandatory recertification of all other club/pilot group waiver holders with heavy emphasis on rule compliance (realign to rules). Fourth, AVPs and district safety experts make no-notice visits for compliance checks ("trust but verify"). Fifth, write an article for MA and for posting on the AMA website airing the dirty laundry about what happened, actions taken, and how these sort of issues will be handled in the future (send clear signal of expected behavior to rest of community). Sixth, provide talking points for all club officers where turbines are allowed and ask them to discuss in newsletters and meetings (get the word out).

franklin_m

I tend to be more "crush the offender" type. Just me, but I've been burned by trying to be nice in cases like this. The guy's flying was a pretty egregious violation of the rules. I think the system could tolerate one waiver being yanked. He can get it back, but he's going to have to EARN it.

The harder problem is how to address all the others who didn't intervene? One of many resources I often use is Kotter's Leading Change:

The eight stages are:
1. Establishing a sense of urgency (nothing like yanking a waiver)
2. Forming a powerful guiding coalition (under risk of being shut down)
3. Creating a vision (MA article contents)
4. Communicating the vision (MA & website publishing)
5. Empowering others to act on the vision (expectation for others to intervene)
6. Planning for and creating short-term wins (positive reinforcement during no-notice visits)
7. Consolidating improvements and producing still more change (TBD)
8. Institutionalizing new approaches (no-notice compliance checks)

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

I know many folks feel hesitant to stand up to another member, let alone someone they don't know at the field. The safety officer position seems to be tough to fill as most folks just want to come down and fly and have fun, they don't want to feel like an enforcer. Then there are the guys that live and breath the role and just sit and watch for the smallest possible issues and make it a big deal. Obviously balance is needed. It's up to everyone.

Didn't mean to imply you went hunting for the video, nor will on a go forward, I'm just saying I won't. God knows there's no shortage of what you would think were responsible adults posting what they are doing online for the world to see. I've posted up several videos I found too, faomies at 10,000 feet, or the guy who flew out 5 miles and back, then crashed (and this was to promote his product not less). And it wouldn't shock me to see the same people complain about being picked on or targeted when they displays of recklessness that they captured and shared with the world are bits of evidence used against them in some manner.

Gizmo-RCU

My Feedback: (27)

Franklin,

With you all the way! As a retired LE Officer (34 yrs.) I have had many similar experiences over those years just different offenses. There is no way the offender didn't know the rules. Todays culture (liberal) seems to feel if you don't have photos it just never happened, forget the other evidence present. With the photos what could the excuse be?
Clip his wings until the point is well taken by him and others present and let the Club know they will loose AMA sanctions should this happen again. Looks like a poor location for that type of flying anyway.

init4fun

Hi Gents , reading what you two say I can agree that if this was intentional , cocky , without a doubt knowingly flaunting of the safety rules then yea , a "spare the rod & spoil the child" approach likely would get folk's attention and make them more willing to toe the line . I would expect an instant and extreme contrition on the part of this pilot if he's approached about this if he truly is deserving a second chance to follow the Safety Code , and any kinds of combative or dismissive response would and should earn the maximum prescribed punishment , whatever that may be . Personally , I can't believe a person can be an AMA member , get to the point in the hobby where they are flying Turbine engine powered models , and not know of the Turbine waiver requirement , if it's true that this is an AMA member and that he does not hold the required waver . In short I would take a dim view of the mentality of "But Officer , I thought speed limits were only for those with driver's licenses" , if that's truly what we got going on here .

franklin_m

Part of the allure is the attention garnered by some of these foolish and risky behaviors. The examples you posted fall into the same category, and I'd go after any and all of them that are AMA members. Why? Simple. When the is telling the Feds, cities, etc. that "Our members are not the problem," they need to make sure that's true. It's clearly not when you have folks like the one flying in the video I posted above flaunting AMA rules and the FARs. I've never been a fan of punishing the innocent in my career. I've focused on "crushing the guilty." If the notoriety they get by posting these puts their AMA at risk, they'll stop posting. W/o the attention, less incentive do the act in the first place. This won't guarantee that it stops, but it will put a lid on the allure of it. To stop it, you need the second part of the "campaign."

The second problem is how to establish what you and Andy seem to have at your clubs, that is the courage for folks to intervene when anyone is doing something they should not. There's major work done on that subject in the safety world, and it's based on what is known as the DuPont Bradley Curve. When a culture reaches that stage, called "interdependent," it's when members of the group "take ownership for safety, and take responsibility for themselves and others. People do not accept low standards and risk-taking. They actively converse with others to understand their point of view. They believe true improvement can only be achieved as a group, and that zero injuries is an attainable goal."

http://www.dupont.com/products-and-s...ley-curve.html

One doesn't have to look far in these pages to see examples that AMA and many members (the culture) is in the reactive stage. Look at the DuPont definition of that state, and we see the exact famous phrase we've seen here many times, namely that "accidents happen."

I spent a year helping my client develop an interdependent safety culture among their employees. We did it by first establishing a single set of standards, and holding people to them. Not just when people were watching, but when they're not. And when someone was found not following them, we didn't just pursue that individual action, but also looked into everyone else that knew or should have known about the behavior and what they did (or didn't do) to stop it before the incident.

At your club, folks intervened. They reacted to what I've called a "weak signal" - namely a minor non-incident violation of rules - and called you on it. That did a couple things: it showed they noticed, they know, and made sure that you knew. Secondly, it made it less likely to happen again. The whole goal of an interdependent safety culture.

That's what I think AMA should do. Build an interdependent safety culture so that all clubs do what yours does.

Gizmo-RCU

My Feedback: (27)

Ever hear of "Murphy's Law"? The real world is should things go wrong at that "Club"it is a great place for it to happen, VERY target rich from what I see.
Quickly deal with the offender and move on! A WHOLE LOT OF OVERTHINKING GOING ON HERE!
Anyone know the guy, perhaps he would like to explain his actions here? Bet he is well aware of the situation now.

GSXR1000

My Feedback: (7)

You guys forget, we are all just pawns on a intergalactic chessboard for us smart ones, or checkerboard for the not so smart ones ; we are being manipulated by other worldly beings trying to see how we cope with different issues for our hobby....

Gizmo-RCU

My Feedback: (27)

Oh, now I remember?