franklin_m

Is it me, or does this have a decidedly less optimistic tone to it?
1QTR 2017 Government Relations Update | AMA Government Relations Blog

What I noticed is that they didn't mention losses in Orlando, San Diego, and the very popular major club in Pennsylvania. At the Federal level, it's lots of "continuing to work" kind of language, as if they're starting to shape expectations. Then they start talking about how they're working with the UAS industry, but it sure seems to me that the UAS industry's airspace needs are a lot different than AMA's.

Maybe it's just me, but I've spent a lot of years looking between the lines, and it seems a bit deflated compared to previous statements.

rcmiket

Commercial will win every-time. Hobbyist are just looked at like pests getting in the way. The next few years are going to be real interesting,

Mike

franklin_m

I suspect you're right, in which case AMA will be doing a lot of "expectation shaping" over the next few months/years. I think they see their "influence" doesn't match their rhetoric (even at local levels).

On another subject, how long does it take to get the minutes posted on the website? It's been almost a month and the April 1/2 info still isn't posted.

rcmiket

Normally 30 days for past experience but last month I actually contacted then as it went longer. I received a nice response that things slipped and they would be up in a few days and they were.

Mike

franklin_m

Thanks. Sunday will be 30 days, so it'll be interesting to see if it's up on Monday.

rcmiket

I'm more interested and concerned about more information being relayed to us the members. I'm willing to wait if that's the case.

Mike.

franklin_m

I'm intrigued. Have you gotten wind that there will be more or less info provided to members?

rcmiket

No but I can always hope for more info.

Mike

franklin_m

Not a good day for AMA. FAA's Assure group issued their first study on injury potential of human vs. "drone" collisions. AMA's "data" got a whopping 230 words in the 195 page report.

Based on a lot of science, they concluded that 145 foot pounds of force to the head/torso results in a 90% probability of fatality (POF). Of note, a 200 mph / 30lb "toy" is about 80,000 foot pounds. And AMA rules allow that projectile to go for almost 600 feet w/o a radio link before they even require the motor to be shut down.

https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=87950

dionysusbacchus

My Feedback: (25)

Well considering the FAA thinks that killing 7 innocent people on the ground on average per year is acceptable for the General Aviation hobbyists, I don't see what is wrong with our safety record.

Here some old farts decided to not get their shoes wet when the engine quit, they were on a joy ride at the time, so they opted to run over a dad and his 9 year old daughter instead, but you Franklin probably would have done the same thing:
9-year-old girl struck by plane on Florida beach dies - CBS News

Here the people in the GA plane out on a joy ride flying over innocent people decided to have a selfie session, also the article has some statistics you would enjoy and some more killing of inocent people by GA:
Why Private Planes Are Nearly as Deadly as Cars

I fly the "toy" jets. How much safety do you need? There are much, MUCH bigger causes that could use your expertise, but instead you seem totally focused on the accident that could happen one day with a jet, meanwhile people are literally getting slaughtered by General Aviation in pursuit of their $150 hamburger and that is totally acceptable to you and the FAA.

I would like to address another thing you bring up regularly, it's the turbine auto shut off requirement.

8. All radios must be equipped with fail safe and ECUs shall be configured to shut down the engine within 2 seconds of fail safe activation.

This is old, newer turbines automatically shut down in less time, ( I say newer, but probably since 2011 or even earlier?) it is not user defined, when there is a loss of signal. The ECU on my Kingtech turbines will automatically bring the turbine to idle if it detects a radio signal loss for more than .5 of a second. If the signal is still not detected in another .5 of a second the turbine is automatically shut down, at that point the jet goes into gear and flaps down, air brakes out.

We all know that the VAST majority of models crash on their intended flight path, when something goes wrong they go in instantly. That is one reason our safety record has been so good, unlike General Aviation and drones, we don't fly over people or buildings. I would also crash my jet before hitting someone, in General Aviation they think they are so special that they can run little girls and babies down so they don't get their Salvatore Ferragamo Python Loafers wet. I understand the need for the study on drone safety however.

franklin_m

Like this AMA member? "Mahem" Field in Florida. He's overflying buildings, picnic areas, heck even a busy interstate interchange! And he's doing it in front of other AMA members, who apparently don't do anything to stop him. And he does it routinely (check out his other videos).

Blows off AMA turbine speed limit at 1:19 mark
Aerobatics over busy interstate / highway interchange at 1:30 mark, 2:26, 3:02
Overflys occupied buildings and parking lots at 2:10
Doesn't even follow his own club's no-taxi line rules 5:06
Does it all with what looks likes 3 other AMA members standing by him watching 4:55

Fails to give way and has near miss with manned helicopter at 1:05 in this video - Says he went "over 3 miles out with no signal problems" in this video - Night flight into clouds here -
This is an AMA member! (you have to be AMA to fly at Markham Park where he's flying).

dionysusbacchus

My Feedback: (25)

I knew you would resort to bringing up the one example you have in your arsenal and say it is representative of the entire jet community, typical agenda guy. So what are you saying, you want the entire hobby banned because some people break the rules? No people are getting killed, but can't allow RC jets to fly because some day in the future someone may get hurt.

Also I don't care about your drone video's, I can see you were desperate for content, got you in a corner already? You yourself said the jet and big airplane guys need AMA fields to fly, because we don't fly like drone pilots. There is no skill required to fly a drone, and they have basically no money invested. I love this hobby too much and have way to much invested to risk it, not to mention I would be devastated if I caused anyone harm with my models especially because of negligence. That first video of the jet is actually connected to a big fiasco here on RCU and the market place several years ago. Turns out the guy in the video ripped off a handicapped jet modeler and the jet was stolen, right here on RCU, I remember the thread. In other words, he is not representative of the jet community and we all know the Park Department that runs that flying field is not enforcing the rules, I've see them crash prop planes in the park area around people there.


So I'll ask again, why did you and the Navy support kids baseball when 4 kids a year get killed in baseball diamonds? 110,000 kids get sent to the emergency room a year because of injuries suffered playing baseball. Yet you and the Navy support the sport by building baseball diamonds on every Navy installation in the world. You were completely silent when babies were and still are getting killed! Yet, turbines kill no babies and for some reason you want our hobby stopped! Come on, I want to see the safety expert talk his way out of this one. We all know you won't, so I win, you are no expert just an angry old man with an agenda.

franklin_m

I happen to agree with the two Pennsylvania courts (lower and superior) that wrote in their rulings that "The record clearly demonstrates that the speed, size and weight of the model airplanes and jets have increased over the past five decades to characteristics where safety needs to be the primary concern .... The record is replete with testimony. . . evidencing the Club’s inability to ensure the safety of [Landowners’] neighbors and the public at large. There have been numerous complaints, crashes, and trespasses by Club members retrieving fallen parts from neighboring land. The Club’s actions are increasingly putting residents, workers, livestock, buildings, equipment, and crops in threatening situations."

One example? How about a few from more? I've removed the "h" at beginning of URLs for space.
- ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b19tJV8geog
(flight to more than a thousand feet within lateral limits of a Victor airway, note absence of any spotters)

- ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcPd-EdQHl4&t=5s
(flight over other people's land, livestock, buildings, & workers)

- ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG7JdTP7XRg
(different operator, flight over other people's land, livestock, buildings, & workers)

Or maybe this one, from yet another club thousands of miles away. Wildfires get out of hand quickly in California, and that puts lives and a lot of property at risk. I'm sure the neighbors loved having "toy" fliers start fires near their homes and businesses.
- ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe0lb9sT-rA

Or maybe this one? Yet another club, planes flying parallel to crowd ... right up until they collided, then not one but both ending up landing among people.
- ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMczGAYOUZo

Or how about this one? One operator gets hit and knocked down, losing control of his "toy". He couldn't predict when he was going to get hit. What if that happened a few seconds earlier when his "toy" was pointed toward the crowd?
- ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUm3c_YBVZ0

Or how about this one? I think it was the sixth time this plane/builder/operator crashed?
- ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ6qNUiEdmE

Or how about this heli into a crowd too close during a 3D demonstration (not like out of control heli hadn't killed someone not too long before this)
- ttps://www.hobbynews.com/articles/helicopters/2016-08/rc-helicopter-crashes-into-crowd-at-ircha

One example? Hardly. They're easy to find. Standoffs are not sufficient and not matched with the size and performance of the toys being flow. Now, what ws it the courts said? Oh yeah: "The record clearly demonstrates that the speed, size and weight of the model airplanes and jets have increased over the past five decades to characteristics where safety needs to be the primary concern."

beepee

Franklin,

I respectfully suggest you consider a new and different hobby. You have concerns for the well-being of model aviation true enough, but you continually focus on the negative side. This hobby – any hobby – is for fun. If you cannot approach it with a view to positive action and influence, you are putting yourself in a miserable position. Good luck to you.

Bedford

franklin_m

Miserable? Really? Because I can easily find examples of dangerous behaviors? Examples of dangerous near misses? In the professional safety world they call those leading indicators. Smart organizations pay attention and act on them. Those that instead celebrate their good luck and delude themselves into believing nothing is wrong generally face a major catastrophe.

And on that subject, let's say someone is badly injured when AMA's luck runs out. It won't take very much research for lawyers to find out that AMA knew they had a problem and didn't act. It won't take much research to determine that AMA's crowd standoffs and other "safety" rules are woefully inadequate when the toys are large and very fast. And just how long do you think it will take for those lawyers to go after the deep pockets? And who's the "deep pocket?" AMA. Not that $20 million or so will go far in a personal injury case. One bad event and some good lawyering could end AMA and see "Taj-Muncie" sold off to pay settlements.

Even if that doesn't happen, I'd call your attention to the fact that one video of a doctor being dragged off a plane is changing an industry. Airlines are scrambling to change policies in response to one video. Both House and Senate are holding hearings next week. Now, just imagine that "one video" is of a 50lb turbine crashing into the crowd at an RC airshow and multiple people (and say a few kids) being taken away in ambulances. You think that video could change the hobby as we know it? Airlines have a lot more clout and one video is changing them.

Unlike others, I'm choosing not to ignore these leading indicators. I actually believe that with a few changes could make a big step forward in safety. Changes long overdue in times of 50lb "toys" traveling at 290 feet per second, I would much rather see AMA make changes before an incident, rather than relying on "luck" to avoid being the target of regulators and legislators after that "one video."

rcmiket

"Don't shoot the messenger".

Mike

rcmiket

Sent a inquiry this AM about when to expect them to be posted.

Mike

rcmiket

The AMA response to my query on posting the minutes was "Soon. Getting ready to post motions. Do you have a particular question?"



Mike

rcmiket

I case anyone is interested............. The latest update is they will be posted on Thursday as some are attending Joe Knoll, wish I was there............................................. . maybe someday.

Mike

franklin_m

Mike, I saw this and your earlier post about "particular question." Notice how quickly their processes break down? In my consulting work, I call that "fragile," and it's not indicative of strong business processes and leadership. It also signals to the world that they can't "walk and chew gum at the same time."

I just don't understand why DM is tolerating this sort of thing from the staff. I had First Class Petty Officers that more effectively ran larger staffs doing much more difficult work. Ugh. I fear they have forgotten that it's our money paying people to do jobs that just don't seem to be reliably completed.

Hydro Junkie

Franklin, I think it comes down to consequences. If the PO1 doesn't do his/her job, (s)he has the UCMJ thrown at him/her, with the possibility of XOI or CO's mast at best, court martial with a DD or jail time at worst. DM doesn't have those kind of things to worry about, nor does the hired staff. IF they all had to work under the same requirements as someone in the military, half as many people would be getting twice as much done and costing about a third as much money to do so. In the military, integrity is just as important as training and performance. Those that never served wouldn't understand how important that is to those we served with.

franklin_m

Hydro, and you know what? It doesn't even have to be that formal. Check to make sure deadlines are met. When they're not find out why not. Ask how it's going to be better next time. Make sure it is better next time. It's just a matter of whether a leader tolerates folks just not doing things. Ultimately it's the leader, the climate and culture he tolerates. What we see out of AMA's ED is not what I'd expect from a top 5% salary.

Hydro Junkie

Agreed,but you have to remember, a leader learns to be one through training and experience. You went through it as an officer, I went through it as a petty officer. We learned what it meant to lead others and how to do so. Many of the so called leaders today don't know the hows or whys, though they do know how to pass the buck or, more often, pass the blame when things don't go as plannned

rcmiket

Until the membership gets involved and demands change things will never improve. Why would it as long as the " I have to belong due to field requires it" mentality exists? .

Mike.

franklin_m

I had any number of Second Class Petty Officers (E-5's for the non-Navy audience) that demonstrated better skills running things than DM does for a top 5% salary.