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further bluring the line

Old 01-08-2018, 08:21 AM
  #101  
astrohog
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
If you want to look at something in the election look at the percentage of members that cast votes..
Exactly........lackluster voter turnout indicates a disengaged membership. That, in itself is a good indicator that our organization is in trouble, as well as being the perfect environment for leadership to do as they wish.

It is also another compelling reason to NOT force people to join and NOT romance the droners, who have proven they do not want or need a club or rules. The percentage of active, engaged members will only continue to decline, essentially allowing AMA leadership to do as they please

Anyone who cannot see that danger is simply naive and/or wearing the proverbial AMA rose colored glasses.

Astro
Old 01-08-2018, 08:24 AM
  #102  
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You might think that but its a pretty typical number of voter percentage since I've been a member, which as you can see is a long time
Old 01-08-2018, 09:06 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
You might think that but its a pretty typical number of voter percentage since I've been a member, which as you can see is a long time
There are those rose-colored glasses.....

the fact that voter turnout has been low for a long time, doesn’t change the fact that it is low. LOL

The fact that voter turnout has been low for a long time also speaks volumes about the leadership...

it is also likely a major contributor to the decline in revenue......

if there is no perceived value to join, why join?

it also explains why a large portion of the membership only sees the AMA as an insurance company.....

while it is every members’ job to educate, engage and introduce fellow and new members to our ranks, it is the AMA leaderships job to truly listen to and understand its members in order that the organization meets and exceeds the members’ expectations, instead of snubbing them, forcing them to join and using the members’ own publication as a venue to discredit certain members who are running for office and supporting others that they favor.

Astro
Old 01-08-2018, 09:10 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
I'm not talking about the columns..
Why not?

Do you not think that was completely inappropriate?

Astro
Old 01-08-2018, 10:48 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
A. The president and EVP used their columns in an official AMA publication to undermine a candidate for the EVP position.

B. Since the Executive Director is responsible for preparation of official publications (note 1), this could only be done with his explicit or tacit approval.

C. And the people who count the votes work for the same Executive Director (note 2).


So the same guy who approved using an official pub to attack a candidate also supervises the vote counters? That is more than enough to question the integrity of the process....


Note 1: AMA Bylaws, Article XIII: "The official AMA publications shall be prepared and distributed under the supervision of the Executive Director."

Note 2: AMA Bylaws, Article X, Section 8: "The Executive Director shall be the Chief Operating Officer of the AMA. He shall be directly responsible to the Executive Council for the operation of the AMA Headquarters staff and for the conduct of AMA business."
Thank you Franklin, for putting the facts behind my last post
Old 01-08-2018, 10:48 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
I'm not talking about the columns.

I'm talking about the serious accusation of rigging the vote or calling it an appointment. If you want to look at something in the election look at the percentage of members that cast votes.

The people that count the votes don't even know the candidates.
The use of the columns in an official publication is a deliberate attempt to influence the outcome, and no matter how you try to spin or obfuscate with voting numbers, it's unethical. The mere fact that guy who allowed that to happen is also the same one supervising the vote counting is more than enough to question the integrity of the process. Even more so when the number of members voting is so small. It takes even less to influence an outcome.
Old 01-08-2018, 10:55 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
I'm tired of hearing that crap about a rigged election. It just doesn't happen that way.
But how do you know it didn't happen that way? Were you there and watching the vote count or editing what was printed in the AMA's publication? If not, then you really don't know the what's, why's or how's of how Rich ran the election. That being said, if you don't know the what, why or how, then can you honestly say that YOU KNOW FOR SURE EVERYTHING WAS ON THE UP AND UP?
Old 01-08-2018, 11:32 AM
  #108  
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As you have no proof it wasn't and those are some pretty outlandish claims.

Was I there? No.

Do I know how the elections are conducted? Yes.
Old 01-08-2018, 11:41 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
As you have no proof it wasn't and those are some pretty outlandish claims.

Was I there? No.

Do I know how the elections are conducted? Yes.
But do you KNOW exactly what Rich did with the voting? We already know he showed a total lack of ethics by letting one candidate attack the other in the AMA's publication so that brings the vote itself into question. There's nothing outlandish about it since he's shown he can't be trusted to do things fairly or he wouldn't have let anyone post anything in the publication. That in and of itself is proof enough for me. Better still, it's in black and white so there's no disputing that Rich allowed it to happen

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 01-08-2018 at 11:44 AM.
Old 01-08-2018, 03:02 PM
  #110  
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Didn't an accounting firm count the ballots? I know in the past they did, but I didn't notice it this time.

jerry
Old 01-08-2018, 03:23 PM
  #111  
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no, they stopped the outside accounting firm ballot counting a few years back, cost savings, ya know.
Old 01-08-2018, 06:03 PM
  #112  
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Why do so many assume corruption when there is no real evidence? Hanson is doing something that some members don't like, other members approve. Wow. Let's lynch him right now since no leader has ever done something like that. Does he not know he has to please everybody?

Low voter turnout is a symptom of our generally disengaged society. Look at Presidential and Congress voter turnout. The numbers are dismal, even though those elections are a lot more important than who's going to run the toy airplane society.

I can't tell that any of the complainers in this thread even know how AMA elections are run, let alone have some inside knowledge about the people involved or discrepancies in the numbers. It's downright irresponsible and immoral to throw such accusations out with no evidence.

So here's an idea. Hanson is our President, properly elected through a democratic process according to our bylaws. He's distinguished himself in our hobby and in service to the AMA. He knows the AMA better than any of us on RCU do, and he has leadership experience and skill. So why not listen to his reasoning, give his ideas a chance? You might still disagree when it's all done. He might be wrong. But then again maybe not. He may have this thing thought out several moves farther than any of us do, and he definitely knows about circumstances that affect the hobby that we'll never do the research to know. In another thread there are some who are so opposed to change they'd rather see the AMA disappear altogether rather than get involved with drones or commercial RC. Are we, as a group, that cynical and backwards minded that we'd rather destroy our organization than to see it evolve? I hope not. Let the leader make his case. Be open minded enough to really think through the ramifications of both options, preferably not through the lens of the "all drone pilots are jerks and idiots" crowd. There are quite a few possible scenarios where peaceful coexistence could be good for both groups, so it's worth a shot. To stay as we are will only result in our current course continuing, which means the end of the AMA in aother 15 years or so.
Old 01-08-2018, 07:18 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by jester_s1
So here's an idea. Hanson is our President, properly elected through a democratic process according to our bylaws. He's distinguished himself in our hobby and in service to the AMA. He knows the AMA better than any of us on RCU do, and he has leadership experience and skill. So why not listen to his reasoning, give his ideas a chance? You might still disagree when it's all done. He might be wrong. But then again maybe not. He may have this thing thought out several moves farther than any of us do, and he definitely knows about circumstances that affect the hobby that we'll never do the research to know …. To stay as we are will only result in our current course continuing, which means the end of the AMA in aother 15 years or so.


How’s the view from that high horse? I guess all us ungrateful serfs should genuflect thrice daily toward Muncie and be thankful that such nobility exists!

I guess we serfs should all ignore the highly irregular and some feel unethical use of the magazine to undermine a candidate?

I guess we serfs should ignore the that this nobility, through their knowledge “about circumstances that affect the hobby that we'll never do the research to know,” has presided over a decade long decline in revenue? (chart 1)

I guess we serfs should ignore that while revenue dropped, the nobility kept staff expenses constant? (chart 2)

I guess we serfs should ignore that while revenue was declining, and staff expenses not reduced, that the percentage of executive compensation compared to all staff costs quadrupled? (chart 3)

I guess us serfs should ignore that the nobility have done nothing to advance the court case they filed years ago – one filed with our money? I guess us serfs should ignore that under this nobility’s leadership, “the conversion rate on youth members is extremely low,” and “open adult membership renewals are on the decline,” and “here was a decline in the Senior adult membership 2015 to 2016?” (Nov 16 EC minutes)

I guess we serfs should ignore that the nobility spends 3 times as much on office expenses as they spend on fields where we serfs fly? (chart 4)

I guess we serfs should ignore that the nobility has been unable to stem declining Model Aviation subscription and advertising revenue? (charts 5 and 6)

So it appears that we’re just a bunch of ungrateful peasants and don't see that wisdom of the nobility. We're too stupid to understand that declining revenue and other negative trends is part of a grand strategy. Yeah, sign me up for more of those good ideas! We can see how well they're working already. I don’t know that the organization can stand much more of this knowledge “about circumstances that affect the hobby that we'll never do the research to know.” We can see how well it’s working so far.
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Old 01-08-2018, 07:38 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by jester_s1
Why do so many assume corruption when there is no real evidence? Hanson is doing something that some members don't like, other members approve. Wow. Let's lynch him right now since no leader has ever done something like that. Does he not know he has to please everybody?

Low voter turnout is a symptom of our generally disengaged society. Look at Presidential and Congress voter turnout. The numbers are dismal, even though those elections are a lot more important than who's going to run the toy airplane society.

I can't tell that any of the complainers in this thread even know how AMA elections are run, let alone have some inside knowledge about the people involved or discrepancies in the numbers. It's downright irresponsible and immoral to throw such accusations out with no evidence.

So here's an idea. Hanson is our President, properly elected through a democratic process according to our bylaws. He's distinguished himself in our hobby and in service to the AMA. He knows the AMA better than any of us on RCU do, and he has leadership experience and skill. So why not listen to his reasoning, give his ideas a chance? You might still disagree when it's all done. He might be wrong. But then again maybe not. He may have this thing thought out several moves farther than any of us do, and he definitely knows about circumstances that affect the hobby that we'll never do the research to know. In another thread there are some who are so opposed to change they'd rather see the AMA disappear altogether rather than get involved with drones or commercial RC. Are we, as a group, that cynical and backwards minded that we'd rather destroy our organization than to see it evolve? I hope not. Let the leader make his case. Be open minded enough to really think through the ramifications of both options, preferably not through the lens of the "all drone pilots are jerks and idiots" crowd. There are quite a few possible scenarios where peaceful coexistence could be good for both groups, so it's worth a shot. To stay as we are will only result in our current course continuing, which means the end of the AMA in aother 15 years or so.
Sorry Jester, but when someone shows me a lack of ethics as blatant as Rich demonstrated by allowing one candidate to attack the other in an organizational publication, I lose all trust in that person. Hell, in my job, an ethics violation of that magnitude would cost me my job since I am one of a group that is tasked in FAA required testing of people that build jetliners. Therefore, ethics(or lack there of in this case) is a big deal to me and something I don't take lightly.

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 01-08-2018 at 08:04 PM.
Old 01-08-2018, 08:01 PM
  #115  
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Just a question from someone that obviously knows nothing. How big of staff is employed by the powers that be at "Taj Muncie"?
in comparison, let me throw a bit of irrelevant trivia at you:
I know NAMBA has no paid staff
I know IMPBA has no paid staff
I know both of the above offer insurance to boaters at group rates
I know both have running sites that are insured
I know that to be covered, I must be a member
I know that NONE OF MY DUES TO NAMBA GOES TO PET PROJECTS THAT HAVE NO PRACTICAL USE LIKE THE INDOOR FLYING FACILITY
ENOUGH SAID SINCE NAMBA AND IMPBA WILL PROBABLY OUTLAST THE AMA
Old 01-08-2018, 10:59 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
I'm tired of hearing that crap about a rigged election. It just doesn't happen that way.
It has happened in the past , so who is to say didn't happen again.
Old 01-09-2018, 02:59 AM
  #117  
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Does anyone know of Dave Mathewson's salary?
Old 01-09-2018, 04:29 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
You might think that but its a pretty typical number of voter percentage since I've been a member, which as you can see is a long time
Than they have done a pretty piss poor job of engaging the membership haven't they? Just another reason for a fresh approach out of the leadership rather the the good old boy and we've always done it that way ,don't ya think?

Mike
Old 01-09-2018, 06:25 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by fliers1
Does anyone know of Dave Mathewson's salary?
Most recent IRS990 filing is 2015. $139,525.
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Old 01-09-2018, 07:30 AM
  #120  
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DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's more that the wife and I make, combined, in a year. So, what does he do to EARN that much pay?
Old 01-09-2018, 07:44 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie
DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's more that the wife and I make, combined, in a year. So, what does he do to EARN that much pay?
Apparently not much.

Mike
Old 01-09-2018, 11:22 AM
  #122  
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I heard that AMA was offered a readily available solution, but they totally rejected it. You'd have to ask them, but I'm sure they ain't talking.
Old 01-09-2018, 11:36 AM
  #123  
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When you really look at it, the AMA couldn't accept anything since it would put them in a position of weakness, in the EC's eyes anyway.
Old 01-09-2018, 11:48 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by fliers1
I heard that AMA was offered a readily available solution, but they totally rejected it. You'd have to ask them, but I'm sure they ain't talking.
Curious what you're talking about
Old 01-09-2018, 11:58 AM
  #125  
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Contact AMA and ask them. Don't think you'd get an answer.

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