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Appox 6 weeks & still no EC Minutes

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Old 08-22-2018, 10:51 PM
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Default Appox 6 weeks & still no EC Minutes

It's been almost six weeks and still no EC minutes. This seems to be an ongoing problem, where they don't feel any obligation to do have them posted soon after the meeting. When minutes are not posted in a timely manner, it keeps the members in the dark about how their money is being spent and actions the board is taking.

https://www.modelaircraft.org/execut...nd-information
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Old 08-23-2018, 04:31 AM
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This is the response from AMA that I got to my inquiry:

”I so look forward to your emails around this time. I have sent the minutes to Randy Cameron to look over. Then I will pass to the rest of the EC and then they get posted. Should be on the website by Wednesday.” - Joyce Hagar

A couple months back, when it was late then too, both Mike and I asked. They said then that it was delayed because they were training a new person. They added that the expectation is 30 days. Well, here we are again, and it's late again. Now when a member asks about a required report, the member gets sarcasm.

In a related thread, a user talked about the “attitude” that he got from staff when it took multiple contacts to get an event write up corrected. I get then this attitude when inquiring about when a required report will be posted ... a report about decisions affecting our money and the organization. It appears that some at high levels on AMA staff do not feel like they need to be accountable to members. Not like we pay their salaries or anything....

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Old 08-23-2018, 10:24 AM
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Franklin, I was under the impression that you are not a current AMA member. Has your status recently changed? Is this yet another one of your attempts to discredit the AMA in exchange for some form of compensation from entities that oppose recreational R/C activities?


For for the record, I have been an active member of AMA since 1977. AMA 22554. I personally have no issue with the EC minutes being late nor do the dozens of other AMA members I fly with.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Franklin, I was under the impression that you are not a current AMA member. Has your status recently changed? Is this yet another one of your attempts to discredit the AMA in exchange for some form of compensation from entities that oppose recreational R/C activities?
For the remainder of the year, I am a member. Thus I'm entitled to see the minutes.

Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
For for the record, I have been an active member of AMA since 1977. AMA 22554. I personally have no issue with the EC minutes being late nor do the dozens of other AMA members I fly with.
Good for you. Not everyone feels the same though.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:39 AM
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FRANKLIN, YOU REALLY NEED TO STOP THINKING THESE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BEHAVE LIKE THOSE IN THE PENTAGON'S "CANOE CLUB". IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Those that work for the home office don't think they need to be accountable since they've never been held accountable before. The attitude comes down to irritation. To have to actually do something in a timely manner or fix something that was done incorrectly is apparently something they didn't think they were hired to do. The first line in the reply you received from Joyce, ”I so look forward to your emails around this time." says very plainly that you're nothing more than an irritant to her. I also find it hard to believe that, with the already bloated staffing, that "it was delayed because they were training a new person" is a credible excuse for a report to be late in dispersal to the members. Sounds to me like it's time to fire everyone and start fresh with people that really do want to do their job
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Old 08-23-2018, 12:26 PM
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Frank, in the 40 years I have flown at dozens of AMA sanctioned sites and the hundreds of AMA sanctioned club meetings I have attended the only person who brings this subject up as an issue is you. Care to share your AMA number with me even if you feel more comfortable doing so in PM?
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Old 08-23-2018, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
FRANKLIN, YOU REALLY NEED TO STOP THINKING THESE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BEHAVE LIKE THOSE IN THE PENTAGON'S "CANOE CLUB". IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Those that work for the home office don't think they need to be accountable since they've never been held accountable before. The attitude comes down to irritation. To have to actually do something in a timely manner or fix something that was done incorrectly is apparently something they didn't think they were hired to do. The first line in the reply you received from Joyce, ”I so look forward to your emails around this time." says very plainly that you're nothing more than an irritant to her. I also find it hard to believe that, with the already bloated staffing, that "it was delayed because they were training a new person" is a credible excuse for a report to be late in dispersal to the members. Sounds to me like it's time to fire everyone and start fresh with people that really do want to do their job
I told her I didn’t appreciate the sarcasm. She tried to walk it back, saying that’s not what she intended. Yeah right. I’m not that stupid. You’re right. Her comment shows how little regard they have for members, and by extension for the money spent to pay their salaries. From there, she basically used the “we’re so busy” excuse. They’re doing multiple things.

Well, boo hoo. I said that maybe it’s time to start firing people. “They’re so busy?” Hardly. If they can’t do the job, then start firing them. And if HR can’t find them folks who can walk and chew gum at the same time, fire HR too. My point to Joyce is that staff salaries consume roughly 25% of all membership dollars - and I’ think members are entitled to get what they’re paying for. And that means reports on time.

As Mike said it best, AMA is a multi-million dollar company. And yet they’re running it like a third rate elementary school bake sale. And it shows ... “we’re so busy” crap
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Old 08-23-2018, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Frank, in the 40 years I have flown at dozens of AMA sanctioned sites and the hundreds of AMA sanctioned club meetings I have attended the only person who brings this subject up as an issue is you.
So what?

Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Care to share your AMA number with me even if you feel more comfortable doing so in PM?
I’m a member. If I wasn’t, she would have said something to that effect. Sharing my AMA number with you serves no purpose.
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Old 08-23-2018, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post


I told her I didn’t appreciate the sarcasm. She tried to walk it back, saying that’s not what she intended. Yeah right. I’m not that stupid. You’re right. Her comment shows how little regard they have for members, and by extension for the money spent to pay their salaries. From there, she basically used the “we’re so busy” excuse. They’re doing multiple things.

Well, boo hoo. I said that maybe it’s time to start firing people. “They’re so busy?” Hardly. If they can’t do the job, then start firing them. And if HR can’t find them folks who can walk and chew gum at the same time, fire HR too. My point to Joyce is that staff salaries consume roughly 25% of all membership dollars - and I’ think members are entitled to get what they’re paying for. And that means reports on time.

As Mike said it best, AMA is a multi-million dollar company. And yet they’re running it like a third rate elementary school bake sale. And it shows ... “we’re so busy” crap

You don't appreciate the sarcasm........LOL that's a hoot. Do you think they are not aware of the things you have said? I think I recall things such as " Taj Muncie ", " Dear Leader ( reference to Rich Hansen )", " AMA dues = yearly offering to Taj Muncie". Just to name a few I found after 5 minutes of skimming. Her response sound like fair play to me.

So what's the harm in sharing your AMA number? Not that I really care, just demonstrating a personality trait of yours I have observed. Something in the order of " I am entitled to the information I want but don't owe anyone information".

It could also be that after some of your outrageous claims I feel the need to verify everything you now claim. The picture I posted is my favorite one of course. However if you need some reminding here is the link to some very interesting material.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...e-our-Airspace

From where I'm sitting, your constant attacks on the AMA are nothing more then a ploy to weaken the organization so that they have less resources to lobby for recreational R/C which is what your clients are compensating you to do. You have made it very clear how valuable your time is however spend countless hours discrediting the AMA. Not difficult to figure that one out. This will be my last post on the subject. Continuing the conversation only gives you a platform and I prefer to not supply that to you.
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Old 08-24-2018, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
You don't appreciate the sarcasm........LOL that's a hoot. Do you think they are not aware of the things you have said? I think I recall things such as " Taj Muncie ", " Dear Leader ( reference to Rich Hansen )", " AMA dues = yearly offering to Taj Muncie". Just to name a few I found after 5 minutes of skimming. Her response sound like fair play to me.
That's not sarcasm, it's mocking. Big difference. I'm not the one pushing for mandatory membership in a private dues collecting organization in order to enjoy a hobby. The "Dear Leader" and others at "Taj-Muncie" are pushing for it.

Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
So what's the harm in sharing your AMA number? Not that I really care, just demonstrating a personality trait of yours I have observed. Something in the order of " I am entitled to the information I want but don't owe anyone information".
I'm a private individual, and thus I don't owe anyone any information. They're a dues collecting organization, and their bylaws require keeping them, and by their own statement they're available to members upon request. Big difference.

Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
From where I'm sitting, your constant attacks on the AMA are nothing more then a ploy to weaken the organization so that they have less resources to lobby for recreational R/C which is what your clients are compensating you to do. You have made it very clear how valuable your time is however spend countless hours discrediting the AMA. Not difficult to figure that one out. This will be my last post on the subject. Continuing the conversation only gives you a platform and I prefer to not supply that to you.
As I've said multiple times, and which you and elan seem to ignore, is that the only compensation I've received has been from the hobby industry.

As for opposition to the AMA, I oppose their effort to make membership mandatory. Just as I would oppose AAA if they tried to make membership mandatory to operate recreational vehicles on public highways, or as I would oppose BoatUS if they tried to make membership mandatory to operate recreational watercraft on public waterways, or AOPA if they tried to make membership mandatory to operate recreational aircraft in the public airspace.
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Old 08-24-2018, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
From where I'm sitting, your constant attacks on the AMA are nothing more then a ploy to weaken the organization so that they have less resources to lobby for recreational R/C which is what your clients are compensating you to do. You have made it very clear how valuable your time is however spend countless hours discrediting the AMA. Not difficult to figure that one out. This will be my last post on the subject. Continuing the conversation only gives you a platform and I prefer to not supply that to you.
Seems to me that the AMA is discrediting themselves by pushing their own(EC members) self serving projects, bloated and inept office staff and failing to follow their own rules. All Franklin has done is pointed it out and called out the AMA's staff for incompetence. The fact that "Taj Muncie" is slowly running out of funding due to wasteful spending doesn't help their cause either
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Old 08-24-2018, 11:45 AM
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Hydro, I would never claim that the AMA is perfect. Does the organization need improvement? The only honest answer I can come up with is yes. I am aware that the AMA needs work. That being said, after reading what Franklin has been writing for the last couple of years and finding out what organizations he is aligned with it was fairly easy to figure out what his motives are. I suggest that before you defend him you take a good hard look at who you are defending. In a nut shell there are a great many people including myself that have determined that Franklin's goal is to weaken the AMA through a loss of membership so that they have less power to lobby congress to protect our hobby. He had a fair amount of success over at RCG simply because there were a few guys that teamed up with him and cyber bullied any opposing opinions. Hydro, please do not become one of those guys. By all means you have the right to your opinion but before you go to bat for someone take a look at their motives first.
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Old 08-24-2018, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
............As for opposition to the AMA, I oppose their effort to make membership mandatory. Just as I would oppose AAA if they tried to make membership mandatory to operate recreational vehicles on public highways, or as I would oppose BoatUS if they tried to make membership mandatory to operate recreational watercraft on public waterways, or AOPA if they tried to make membership mandatory to operate recreational aircraft in the public airspace.
Agree 100% .

I've had a motorcycle driver's license for a good number of years , and never in that time do I remember the AMA (American Motorcyclist Association) trying to make AMA membership mandatory to enjoy my motorcycle .

Bottom line of the thread is that our AMA owes itself to abide by the expected 30 days if that's the accepted time frame for publishing the EC Minutes .
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Old 08-24-2018, 12:44 PM
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In all honesty, I really don't care what Franklin's motives are. I do know the AMA home office does not run like a well-oiled machine and, truth be told, is in need of some serious housecleaning. I've not just based my opinion on what Franklin has posted but what many have said as well as what I've read that was put out by the AMA itself. When I read about how one of the EC members wants to build an indoor flying facility in the area of the home office yet has no idea what else it will be used for to generate an inflow of cash or another that claims an EC meeting can't be held at a national event because it's not at the headquarters building, that just says some are more interested in spending cash on themselves than they are about putting the funds back in to the activity. When Muncie gets their act together and starts thinking about what's best for the membership instead of what's best for the EC and staff, I might support them. When it takes months to put out minutes to a meeting, when three organizations I belong to can all do so in less than two weeks(and that's with a volunteer voted in secretary on a home computer), I can't help but agree with Franklin. Something has to change because right now, the AMA is a laughing stock after getting stonewalled by Congress and the FAA while a private citizen's attorney gets done in court what the AMA's legal staff couldn't. It's time to clean house, both in staff and officers, and cut the fat out of the AMA's budget or the AMA you seem to be so proud of won't be around due to it's own in competence

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Old 08-24-2018, 01:57 PM
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I am truly sorry to see that you appear to have become one of those guys. The last line in that post sums it up pretty well. I have been open and admitted that I beleive the AMA needs change/improvement yet you seem to somehow turn that into pride. We all have our opinions and I am open to listening to them all with an open mind right up until people start embellishing what I said.
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Old 08-25-2018, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
I am truly sorry to see that you appear to have become one of those guys. The last line in that post sums it up pretty well. I have been open and admitted that I beleive the AMA needs change/improvement yet you seem to somehow turn that into pride. We all have our opinions and I am open to listening to them all with an open mind right up until people start embellishing what I said.
Once again the messengers are attacked and persecuted rather than the simple task of addressing the issues and, heaven forbid, making someone actually do their job!

And the new web site is an example of HQ competency?

And I should be a member because?

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Old 08-25-2018, 07:03 AM
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Look at the bigger picture please. As of right now the AMA is really the only CBO that is representing us to Congress. Without our support via membership they have fewer resources to fight that battle. Not only in revenue it strength in numbers. That is Franklins goal, reduce AMA membership. It seems that you missed where I have acknowledged that there are issues within the AMA that do need to get fixed however regardless of what we feel of their performance, they are the only organization that is fighting for us. Keep in mind that if recreational RC goes away so does their livelihoods. They are as of now our best hope. IMO it is foolish not to support them if you want to continue being able to operate as we have for the last 50 years.
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Old 08-25-2018, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Look at the bigger picture please. As of right now the AMA is really the only CBO that is representing us to Congress. Without our support via membership they have fewer resources to fight that battle. Not only in revenue it strength in numbers. That is Franklins goal, reduce AMA membership. It seems that you missed where I have acknowledged that there are issues within the AMA that do need to get fixed however regardless of what we feel of their performance, they are the only organization that is fighting for us. Keep in mind that if recreational RC goes away so does their livelihoods. They are as of now our best hope. IMO it is foolish not to support them if you want to continue being able to operate as we have for the last 50 years.
Same line I've been hearing for over 50 years. If the AMA is indeed our best hope, that is truly our misfortune.

And since you acknowledge issues exist, what have you done to correct any of them? I warned them over 25 years ago and was ridiculed for my suggestions.

Franklin not only points out fiscal trends, but supports them with evidence. And all you people can do is accuse him of working for some other side and trying to destroy the AMA if not the hobby. That explains why my Congressman laughed the way he did when I mentioned the AMA in his office.

Got news for you. The enemy to the hobby is within the AMA. Not the outside.
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Old 08-25-2018, 01:44 PM
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Support them?......Yes! Hold their feet to the fire and expect them to follow their own rules?....... You bet! If your assertion is that the AMA is our only hope for the future of our hobby, then they better be on top of their game in all aspects. franklin m. Stay on them! Full disclosure. My AMA membership is not current and will remain that way for the foreseeable future.

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Old 08-25-2018, 05:31 PM
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I was asked what I have done to help the situation. For one I pay my AMA dues every year. I also attend between 10 to 12 sanctioned events per year. Many of those are pattern contests which are also attended by the AMA district X AVP. Between rounds we discuss the direction of AMA and I express my concerns. From a club stand point, I attend my home clubs meetings and events. Especially the open houses where we introduce ourselves and invite the general public out for lessons without requiring any membership and we serve a free lunch. This year I flew a demonstration with my pattern airplane and put on a one hour composites seminar. So yes I am quite active.


From conversations I have come to the conclusion that the ongoing conversations, meetings etc with the FAA and Congress is consuming a great deal of time and may be the cause of some other things slipping. Like all organizations/businesses things need to be prioritized. That may be the case with the EC minutes. If more guys would continue with their memberships in spite of the current situation it could mean more staff and things would not slip. Continuing membership also gives you a voice in shaping the AMA to what the membership wants. IMO if you are currently a non member then your opinion has less volume then if you were a member.
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Old 08-26-2018, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
I was asked what I have done to help the situation. For one I pay my AMA dues every year. I also attend between 10 to 12 sanctioned events per year. Many of those are pattern contests which are also attended by the AMA district X AVP. Between rounds we discuss the direction of AMA and I express my concerns. From a club stand point, I attend my home clubs meetings and events. Especially the open houses where we introduce ourselves and invite the general public out for lessons without requiring any membership and we serve a free lunch. This year I flew a demonstration with my pattern airplane and put on a one hour composites seminar. So yes I am quite active.

Good for you. That’s a choice. Some of us on the other hand like to see the organization actually DO something to earn our support. And all those discussions with the district X AVP have produced .... what change in the direction of the AMA? Has it improved their customer service? Has it encouraged them to stop paying people to do jobs that clearly aren’t being done? None, no, and no would be the answers.

Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
From conversations I have come to the conclusion that the ongoing conversations, meetings etc with the FAA and Congress is consuming a great deal of time and may be the cause of some other things slipping. Like all organizations/businesses things need to be prioritized. That may be the case with the EC minutes. If more guys would continue with their memberships in spite of the current situation it could mean more staff and things would not slip. Continuing membership also gives you a voice in shaping the AMA to what the membership wants. IMO if you are currently a non member then your opinion has less volume then if you were a member.
Ah, the “We’re so busy” excuse. Yeah right. They have a staff for government affairs. Oh, and they pay a lobbyist. I’m pretty sure that Dobbs, Budreau, “Dear Leader” and the lobbyist are not the ones preparing the minutes. Yet they’re late and the excuse you want us to believe is because they’re spending time in DC talking with Congress? Yeah right. The reason they’re late is because you have a multi-million dollar organization being managed like a third rate bake sale. People are paid, but not accountable for doing their jobs.

They installed a marketing guy as the ED, who’s first official act was to roll out a error ridden website, in the middle of flying season, when it would get the most use. Bake sales do that sort of thing. Not “professionals.” And unfortunately, the same person making that poor decision is getting a salary that puts him in the top 1% of all incomes in the Muncie area. What exactly are we getting for our money? Mediocrity.

All your open houses, talks with the AVP, and free lessons aren’t going to solve the fundamental problem with the AMA. There’s no reason people WANT to join. When your reason for joining is limited to “there’s nobody else” you’re scraping the bottom of the barrel. Which is why they’re trying to use law to compel membership.

They gave up a nearly hew HQ in DC (where the action is) in favor of “Taj-Muncie” ... where nobody is. They plowed all the members money into that site, and attendance at the NATS and other big events is falling. They’ve got this millstone of a facility around their necks and they are too emotionally invested to see they need a radical change. But no, they’re trying to make it mandatory to join, and in the process creating incentive for competitions. If they think the FAA will save them by strictly enforcing the CBO criteria, they’re wrong. The FAA won’t even send decision makers to meetings with AMA (as noted in EC minutes) and won’t act on the AMA’s CBO petition. Both are signals. AMA pi**ed off the FAA by passing the special rule and fighting the FAA interpretation of it. Now they’re getting ready to do it again by getting Inhofe to put things in the FAA bill that MAKE the FAA do things the AMA want done.

AMA needs a radical change, one that will only come when they’re forced to face the end of their existence. That’s what it took for IBM to make the changes. And that’s what it’ll take for AMA to make the changes necessary if they want to survive.
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Old 08-26-2018, 03:33 AM
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Before I moved, I made frequent visits to my Congressman and Senators and discussed the drone issues with them. Wonder who else if any have actually sat down with their representatives? Or do they expect them to come to the flying field like they do the public?

Reaching out to the public from the security of the club flying field is nothing but a small start. How about mall shows? School demos? Or maybe, some kind of non RC related support of some charity? Invite the media and make sure they show up.

Hiding at the club field is token at best. The club has to get out to the public. Not the other way around.

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Old 08-26-2018, 03:48 AM
  #23  
franklin_m
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The reason for AMAs declining membership revenue is simple. Rational people looking at what they get vs. what it costs and deciding they’d rather put their limited resources elsewhere.

If someone doesn’t have a “need” for a club field, then there’s really no compelling reason to join AMA. And more and more people don’t “need” a club field to fly nice planes, helos, and MRs.
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Old 08-26-2018, 10:14 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
I am truly sorry to see that you appear to have become one of those guys. The last line in that post sums it up pretty well. I have been open and admitted that I beleive the AMA needs change/improvement yet you seem to somehow turn that into pride. We all have our opinions and I am open to listening to them all with an open mind right up until people start embellishing what I said.
SORRY BUT I'M NOT ONE OF THOSE GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am someone that's been an officer in more than one organization and knows how a business should operate after being an assistant manager of one I worked for. You say "I'm one of those guys" , but if you look in the mirror, you also fall into that same category. You're one of those guys that will support the AMA's doctrine and tell us that we are wrong on what we can clearly see as a mismanaged organization that no longer has a real reason to expect new members when we all have other things begging for our attention and funds. I spend half as much money to renew my and the wife's memberships in NAMBA, so I can go out and race boats roughly a dozen times per year. What does my money provide:
1) Operating capital for an organization with a staff of three people;
  • an elected president
  • an elected vice president
  • an appointed general secretary
2) liability and medical insurance in case of accident or property damage
3) a rulebook that include what amounts to rules of conduct, rules for racing all the classes of boats that are supported by the organization
4) an elected district VP that is one of 19 across the country that will actually do something with said rules, ideas and issues that affect their district as well as the elected general officers
The officers all work from their homes, do all of their work in their spare time rather than supposedly working from an office and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, DO NOT GET PAID FOR ANYTHING THEY DO BY THE MEMBERSHIP
It sounds to me like the AMA needs to take a few lessons on how to do things EFFICIENTLY, CHEAPLY AND WITH LESS PAID STAFF MEMBERS RATHER THAN MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 08-26-2018 at 10:17 PM.
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Old 08-27-2018, 04:11 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
The reason for AMAs declining membership revenue is simple. Rational people looking at what they get vs. what it costs and deciding they’d rather put their limited resources elsewhere.

If someone doesn’t have a “need” for a club field, then there’s really no compelling reason to join AMA. And more and more people don’t “need” a club field to fly nice planes, helos, and MRs.
Exactly! Which is why Muncie in general and ALL the clubs and members in particular must start thinking outside the box and provide more value to more people. Making the insurance primary would be a good first step for Muncie. But Muncie would rather force membership via legislation and the clubs and members don't want to be bothered with anything like public relations. They see it as Muncies job.

In the meantime, I fly from my back yard. The neighborhood kids come to watch and ask questions. I've given a dozen or more of them a turn at the sticks and a few of their parents too. I currently have 6 students I'm teaching to build and fly. I've never worked so hard in my life. Retirement is great!
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