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Things that would be interesting to know - "Taj-Muncie" usage

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Things that would be interesting to know - "Taj-Muncie" usage

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Old 11-13-2018, 10:43 AM
  #26  
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I am NOT searching for a club. What I would like to see is whether or not the clubs tend to focus or congregate in areas where the various mail order stores have their facilities.

And this should be ALL clubs/active flying sites. Not just AMA. But we can start with just AMA.
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Old 11-29-2018, 05:03 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Appowner View Post
I am NOT searching for a club. What I would like to see is whether or not the clubs tend to focus or congregate in areas where the various mail order stores have their facilities.

And this should be ALL clubs/active flying sites. Not just AMA. But we can start with just AMA.
We have an AMA club in Kerrville, TX, Kerrville R/C Fliers. The nearest hobby shop is 65 miles away.

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Old 11-29-2018, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Charley View Post
We have an AMA club in Kerrville, TX, Kerrville R/C Fliers. The nearest hobby shop is 65 miles away.

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Only 65 miles ? Gee I thought Texas was SO big that everything is at least 100 miles away
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Old 11-29-2018, 05:35 PM
  #29  
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I don't think so,....clubs assemble where ever there is opportunity and potential to support a club. there are of course, instances where a club is formed and sponsored by a shop . when I was a kid, I used to fly u-control and the club I was in was named after a local hobby shop that supported the u-control genre of the hobby, in the area. the owner of the shop was also an avid u-control flyer.
currently there is a small club in the small town I live in and there are larger clubs in the surrounding towns (that are larger in size), yet the closest decent hobby shop is 45-50 mi. away and although it does have a decent selection of balsa, some ARF stuff, a few engines, fuel and a couple racks of small parts,....just the basics....it's not what I would call an "r/c oriented " shop. the thing is ,...now-a-days,.... the internet is your hobby shop, so it doesn't matter where the club or the shop is.
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Old 11-29-2018, 06:17 PM
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The last (and only) time I visited Muncie was a few years ago at the one “EDF Jet Jam” that was held there. Huge flying site....empty......
Usage on that week? Well, the “Jam” on one runway....some free flight guys way on the other side......AND? Local cops using the area (presume they paid a fee to AMA) to practice high speed pursuit and driving.
So is AMA providing a “middle of the USA” flying experience for almost nobody, or a “Law Enforcement NASCAR” venue?
What a waste of my and others $$$ on a gold plated albatross.


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Old 11-29-2018, 06:48 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by speed is life View Post
The last (and only) time I visited Muncie was a few years ago at the one “EDF Jet Jam” that was held there. Huge flying site....empty......
Usage on that week? Well, the “Jam” on one runway....some free flight guys way on the other side......AND? Local cops using the area (presume they paid a fee to AMA) to practice high speed pursuit and driving.
So is AMA providing a “middle of the USA” flying experience for almost nobody, or a “Law Enforcement NASCAR” venue?
What a waste of my and others $$$ on a gold plated albatross.

Muncie is available to ALL AMA members to visit and fly. If the membership does not take advantage of this benifit then that is on the members. The site is very busy the 6 weeks or so that the Nationals are held each year. Many competitors make the Nationals their annual vacation with many father/son teams building life long memories. There have been some father/daughter teams over the years as well. All these visitors also boost the Muncie local economy. In my eyes that is a win win.

Do guys actually expect the Muncie site to be busy at all times? You do realize that is a pipe dream right? I would be willing to bet that some of your local sales tax has been used to build a sports arena that is empty more then not AND you have to PAY to watch an event in a venue that YOUR tax dollars helped build. Imagine that! Yet pay 75.00 ( the price of a mediocre dinner for you and the wife ) for AMA membership and the facility that they built and have you an open invitation to use whenever you wish is a crime.
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Old 11-29-2018, 07:58 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post


Muncie is available to ALL AMA members to visit and fly. If the membership does not take advantage of this benifit then that is on the members. The site is very busy the 6 weeks or so that the Nationals are held each year. Many competitors make the Nationals their annual vacation with many father/son teams building life long memories. There have been some father/daughter teams over the years as well. All these visitors also boost the Muncie local economy. In my eyes that is a win win.

Do guys actually expect the Muncie site to be busy at all times? You do realize that is a pipe dream right? I would be willing to bet that some of your local sales tax has been used to build a sports arena that is empty more then not AND you have to PAY to watch an event in a venue that YOUR tax dollars helped build. Imagine that! Yet pay 75.00 ( the price of a mediocre dinner for you and the wife ) for AMA membership and the facility that they built and have you an open invitation to use whenever you wish is a crime.
6 weeks out if 52, Ya!........Keep drinking the Kool-Aid......

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Old 11-29-2018, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by speed is life View Post

6 weeks out if 52, Ya!........Keep drinking the Kool-Aid......
That is just one example, I didn't say it was unused the remainder of the year. I kinda like the sound of " Kool Aid ". Way better then " Hater Aid ".
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Old 11-29-2018, 09:29 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post


Muncie is available to ALL AMA members to visit and fly. If the membership does not take advantage of this benifit then that is on the members. The site is very busy the 6 weeks or so that the Nationals are held each year. Many competitors make the Nationals their annual vacation with many father/son teams building life long memories. There have been some father/daughter teams over the years as well. All these visitors also boost the Muncie local economy. In my eyes that is a win win.

Do guys actually expect the Muncie site to be busy at all times? You do realize that is a pipe dream right? I would be willing to bet that some of your local sales tax has been used to build a sports arena that is empty more then not AND you have to PAY to watch an event in a venue that YOUR tax dollars helped build. Imagine that! Yet pay 75.00 ( the price of a mediocre dinner for you and the wife ) for AMA membership and the facility that they built and have you an open invitation to use whenever you wish is a crime.
You must be drinking Kool Aid laced with something since your arguments don't really hold water. Let me take the statements I highlighted and and put in my take on them:
1) If the membership does not take advantage of this benifit then that is on the members. This is hardly a matter of being able to head to Muncie any time I want. It's 2400 miles, one way, from my house to Muncie. That's a MAJOR EXPENSE when you consider that I would have to drive 4800 miles and, if I'm careful, pay for 240 gallons of gas, roughly $800 for cheap hotels and who knows how much in food. Alternatively, I could take my camp trailer, load it with food and then pay for 535 gallons of gas and spend $25(or more) per night at campgrounds. Doesn't sound like that large of benefit to me since, when you figure $3 per gallon for gas(just a rough average cost) means I'm looking at $720 or, with the trailer, $1605.
2) Many competitors make the Nationals their annual vacation Not anyone that I know. Those that have nothing else in their lives might. What else is there to do, for those in the family that don't "bleed nitro"? I doubt in a small town like Muncie that there isn't very much to do. If I'm going to go on a vacation, there's got to be something for the wife as well as me to do or it's not worth going
3) I would be willing to bet that some of your local sales tax has been used to build a sports arena that is empty more then not AND you have to PAY to watch an event in a venue that YOUR tax dollars helped build. The difference here is that facilities such as these WERE VOTED ON AND APPROVED BY THE PEOPLE THAT ARE PAYING FOR THEM. The AMA headquarters and facilities were not voted on and approved, they were forced on the membership by others As far as sports complexes in my area, that being Seattle, Safeco Field(home of the Mariners) hosts concerts and events all the time. Century Link Field(home for both the Seahawks and Sounders FC) was built with a exposition center included in the design Both sites also have parking garages that are used daily for those that work in the area, not to mention access to a commuter rail system. Something you don't understand is that we don't pay to watch an event UNLESS WE WANT TO. The AMA expects us to pay for a facility that most won't ever see
4) pay 75.00 ( the price of a mediocre dinner for you and the wife ) HOW DO YOU CONSIDER A $75 MEAL MEDIOCRE??? Are you talking in Boston, Philly, NYC or DC? In my area, $75 will by me a very nice prime rib or a very fresh King/Chinook salmon dinner, with all the trimmings, with enough left over to take the wife out dancing.

Sounds to me like your way of looking at the value of a dollar and what makes a vacation and mine are very different. Driving to Muncie doesn't cut it for me or the wife. What does cut it for us is a trip that accomplishes several things. Our next summer vacation will have us visiting part of her family in one state, visiting friends in a second state, going to a convention in a third state, visiting more friends in a fourth and fifth state before going camping in the Cascades for a few days on the way home. This trip will cover over 6000 miles but, when you look at how many things we will be doing, it's a much more "dollar friendly" trip than a 4800 mile run to Muncie and back

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Old 11-29-2018, 09:53 PM
  #35  
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Once again Dave, why must you and others feel the need to start a post with an insult? So a vacation to Muncie does not make sense to you, I have no issue with that. There are however people and families that do. I am on the west coast the same as you and I have not made the trip to Muncie and to be honest I do not plan to do so as long as the west coast is my home. I do not belittle those who do. What other people do with their time and money is not my concern. I get that you feel AMA is a bad investment for YOU, simple don't join. You are NOT being forced to do anything, flying model airplanes is a choice. If you have an issue with the politics surrounding the hobby then maybe you should quit and do something else. I am somone who does see value in AMA membership even though I currently have no plans to visit Muncie. For me it's nice to know that should that change it is an available option. I have some great friends here locally who drive to Muncie every year to compete in pattern. I have an opportunity to relocate to Alabama next year. Meeting up in Muncie for the Pattern Nationals would be a great way to see them should me transfer pan out. Bottom line is that just because you have your valid reasons for not visiting or even wanting the Muncie facility, others such as myself have valid reasons for wanting the facility. Our issue isn't that you have a lack of respect for other peoples opinions and feel that everyone should see things through your eyes and if not then out come in insults.
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Old 12-01-2018, 12:38 PM
  #36  
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speedracer, your recurring comment that people should just fall in with the AMA or quit the hobby could be a little dismaying to some, me included. If I had a place to fly close by which didn`t require membership, than I wouldn't have to come up with the $75.00 every year which for many is way too much for supplemental liability insurance to fly model aircraft. I work at an auto shop that used to be a hangar next to a 3000 ft. runway at a now defunct airport. I have permission to and have flown there, but the hangars and the fence around the whole place are a little too close, with tall trees beyond them. Too bad. I get the feeling that more and more AMA members are thinking also that " if I could only find a place to fly and not have to pay the AMA, than my money would be better spent on the un-sanctioned site" I just don`t feel good about writing that check every year when, according that a lot of what I`ve read here, that too much money is being spent on unnecessary structure, infrastructure and generous salaries in addition to what may be ineffectual schmoozing/lobbying in Washington. I don`t think of myself as an AMA basher, but I think there should be more options available. Maybe if there aren`t more provided in the future, there won`t be an AMA to worry about.
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Old 12-05-2018, 10:02 AM
  #37  
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I was paying $49 for a mediocre dinner, now I'm paying $75 for a some stale leftovers.
I paid for a two year membership yet they had me down for only one. That only took five weeks to fix the mistake.
Website still doesn't work.
I still cannot log in.
Magazine is just about drones, free flights, and a full page add from Harbor Freight.
I really want to quit the AMA for their lack of performance, but I'm held by the nuts because I want to fly at club fields and must be an AMA member for the insurance. Gad help me if I ever have to file a claim.
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Old 12-06-2018, 04:14 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by scottrc View Post
I was paying $49 for a mediocre dinner, now I'm paying $75 for a some stale leftovers.
I paid for a two year membership yet they had me down for only one. That only took five weeks to fix the mistake.
Website still doesn't work.
I still cannot log in.
Magazine is just about drones, free flights, and a full page add from Harbor Freight.
I really want to quit the AMA for their lack of performance, but I'm held by the nuts because I want to fly at club fields and must be an AMA member for the insurance. Gad help me if I ever have to file a claim.
"...That only took five weeks to fix the mistake..." - Someone not doing their job (membership processing) but still being paid with our membership dollars.

"...Website still doesn't work..." - Someone not doing their job (web coding) but still being paid with our membership dollars.

Magazine ... and declining advertising ... - Yet another person not doing their job (sales) but still being paid with our membership dollars.
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Old 12-06-2018, 05:20 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
"...That only took five weeks to fix the mistake..." - Someone not doing their job (membership processing) but still being paid with our membership dollars.

"...Website still doesn't work..." - Someone not doing their job (web coding) but still being paid with our membership dollars.

Magazine ... and declining advertising ... - Yet another person not doing their job (sales) but still being paid with our membership dollars.
Substandard performance that is accepted and often excused by the membership.

It has been my experience as a manager that those who defend substandard performance are themselves often substandard in their own performance.

The Peter Principle appears busy in Muncie.
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Old 12-06-2018, 05:20 AM
  #40  
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I know that it won't happen, since many members won't be able to fly due to the weather, suppose the entire membership or maybe just most didn't renew their membership for a month or two.

This protest may (I doubt it) get AMA's attention. Who knows?

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Old 12-06-2018, 05:28 AM
  #41  
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I believe such a move was attempted many, many years ago. I think RC Modeler mag was behind it but maybe not. Failed miserably.
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Old 12-06-2018, 09:03 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Appowner View Post
Substandard performance that is accepted and often excused by the membership.

It has been my experience as a manager that those who defend substandard performance are themselves often substandard in their own performance.

The Peter Principle appears busy in Muncie.
I read this and get “ agree with me or be branded a slacker”. Is that really really your point?
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:55 PM
  #43  
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Is it your point that being a slacker is acceptable behavior and performance? That so called slackers can and should keep jobs and even get promotions?

Or are you simply seeking some reason to complain about my post?
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:40 PM
  #44  
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My point is that my personal ethics do not allow me to rate somone else’s performance without all the facts. Since none of us have spent any real time in Muncie then none of us have all the facts.

Secondly since I have been tagged as “ pro AMA “ your comments would imply you to be calling my professionalism less then acceptable. You however did not outright answer my question did you?

I however will show you the courtesy of answering your question. No I do not believe substandard performance should be rewarded. I would also not want anyone losing their job based on an opinion expressed on an internet site. Keep in mind that between here and RCG there are only about a dozen guys on their AMA soapbox. Hardly a majority.
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Old 12-06-2018, 08:25 PM
  #45  
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I think I can answer this one for you Speed:
1) NO, he isn't calling you a slacker since you don't actually work in the AMA offices
2) Yes, I would say you are very much an AMA supporter, no issue on that as I have things and causes I support, at times probably too much so
3) It's not a matter of ethics or seeing what's going on at the AMA offices. It comes down to the facts we do have. I'll use an AMA member, ScottRC, with his website issues and membership time errors. The fact it took 5 weeks to fix his membership renewal, something that should have been able to be fixed in a day or, in a well run business, minutes, shows a major issue. I can understand typos, but 5 WEEKS??????? That is inexcusable. The fact that the office has heard, from multiple sources and for several months, that the website has issues that still haven't been fixed is also inexcusable. In my job, if I have an issue to take care of and don't do so or have someone file a complaint with HR over something I ALLEGEDLY DID, I'm out the door and have no chance of getting my job back. What makes my job any different than those at the AMA's offices. That comes down to one word:
ACCOUNTABILITY!!!
The difference is that I'm held accountable for what I do and how I do it. If it's perceived that I broke the rules or didn't follow procedures, I'm gone. The AMA should be looking at things the same way. The question is why don't they?
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Old 12-07-2018, 05:04 AM
  #46  
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First off Dave I want to thank you for the way your response was presented. It makes a huge difference when we talk to one another as opposed to at one another, so thank you. I agree that Scott's issue should not have taken 5 weeks to correct. That being said, we don't know the circumstances behind it. We do know the web site has been having issues, membership renewal is web based. I'm not an IT guy but could it have been possible that other things could have been fixed with the site before the membership issue could be found? Could Scott have made the mistake himself and then not provided a transaction number to help them find the issue? I'm not making excuses for them, simply demonstrating that immediately accusing somone of incompetence at step one may not be the correct answer without all the facts surrounding this particular incident. Trust me when I say that I am well aware of following process. I build space propulsion systems for a living and when an error is found it is serious business, however we look at all aspects that led to the error. Was tranining adequate, are the process instructions written correctly, were tools in proper working order etc. once these questions have been satisfied then we start looking at the operator specific questions.

The other issue we have in this forum is human behavior. You took Scott's story at face value without any verification or pertinent details simply because you WANT to beleive him. I have my doubts about the story ( no I am not calling him a liar ) and would like to have more details about his incident because I DO NOT want to beleive his story. As with all situations like this the truth of what actually happened is somewhere in between what you and I imagine.
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Old 12-07-2018, 06:05 AM
  #47  
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If the web site issues were the only thing, that would be a no brainer. But the web site is one of many events that are the symptoms of a poorly run organization. Even Hansons little declaration in the Feb 2, 2018 issue of "The Hill" is an example. Accusing non-AMA of being rouges and suggesting they be prosecuted? Trust me, he damaged his own and AMAs reputation with Congress and the business world far more than he harmed any so called rouge. And I have no doubt someone here is asking themselves if not out loud, "The Hill"? What declaration? Demonstrating how quickly the membership is to forgive and forget and remain in many cases, out of touch.

But have you seen any other such declarations from Hanson? I know for a fact that some members cited it as the reason for not renewing their AMA this year. Others have written strong letters condemning his comments. I think he got the message.

The vast majority of AMA members don't care how the organization is managed. They want to fly with the local club and according to the club, they need AMA to do so. So they join! AMA counts on this submissive attitude to get away with their antics. You find the same thing in many social organizations. But that doesn't make it right. Most people are quick to let someone else take on the responsibilities they themselves should act on and question.

The fact, yes it is a fact, that the AMA has demonstrated so many "lapses" in good management tells anyone who knows anything about it that the problem starts at the top and works it's way down from there.

How about basic safety rule violations? I'm not talking about to occasional 'Oops" everyone gets from time to time. But ongoing accepted practices. Doesn't take much searching to find examples. And then you find people declaring on forums that in spite of the new FAA regulations, they will fly when, where and what they want. And their AMA number proudly displayed in their profile. But the funny thing? No, it's not really funny. But the fact is the AMA, Muncie likes to declare such issues are a club problem and not an AMA issue. Ducking responsibility like so many members do. But when such rules are also ignored, waived at the NATS, it shows the problem is one of culture that starts at Muncie.

And in the meantime, people will take a single example and dismiss it like it's the only time anything has happened. "We need more data on this!" Bull! What we need is responsibility at the highest levels of the organization. What we have is a bunch of 'Good ol' boys!' thinking they're a whole lot smarter than they really are.

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Old 12-07-2018, 08:26 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
The other issue we have in this forum is human behavior. You took Scott's story at face value without any verification or pertinent details simply because you WANT to beleive him. I have my doubts about the story ( no I am not calling him a liar ) and would like to have more details about his incident because I DO NOT want to beleive his story. As with all situations like this the truth of what actually happened is somewhere in between what you and I imagine.
In my case, it's not whether I want to believe or not, it's a number of things that are adding up to have me leaning very heavily into believing.
First off, why would Scott fabricate something like that, being someone that's already a member? The last thing I would personally do is defame an organization I'm a member of without having a verifiable reason. I know you're not a "Franklin fan" but, in all honesty, you do have to admit he does his research before posting and many of his posts do show a serious lack of professionalism, at best, by the AMA's office staff. Since his sources have been government required documents that are available to the public, it's not like he went out of his way to create them. He's just given us the information to make our own opinion. Being someone that's handled pay accounts and been in management positions, I read these forms from a position of someone that's worked with many of them. They tell me a story of an organization that hasn't yet learned how to manage to make the choices needed when the income doesn't keep up with expenses.
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Old 12-07-2018, 10:04 AM
  #49  
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It tickles me the way some people will condemn you for pointing out potential problems with the way a favored organization is run. Obviously the AMA must be perfect. Simply because so many seem to think so and defend it as if it were.

So let me ask all the believers out there. If the AMA is perfect, how is it we find ourselves in the situation we are in with regard to the FAA?

And if it's not perfect, why do you insist on killing the messengers?
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Old 12-07-2018, 04:30 PM
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speedracerntrixie
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Alright, now that I am home from work I can address some of what has been said today. I don't have the luxury of being retired. First off let me openly state that I was not happy with Hansen's comments about rouge flyers nor his comments on either being an AMA member or needing to be part 107. IMO those were a poor attempt at getting the FAA to make a more clear definition between traditional LOS models and drones. Bottom line is that he will not be getting my vote next election. That brings me to one of Appowner's comments, please quote me where I said the AMA is perfect. I beleive you will find that statement of mine right next to where I claim to have a pet Unicorn.

Safety rules violations, I think you grossly over estimate how often violations take place. Sure we can find many videos online that show such violations however can you quote an accurate percentage of flights that contain violations as opposed to those that do not? It's my understanding that you two gentlemen do not fly at an AMA site so how are you obtaining the knowledge of these alleged rules violations. Clearly you are not witnessing them. Same with the claim that rules are being waived at the Nats. Please provide details of all these rules violations. I'm not saying they don't happen, just asking for accurate numbers/data. When they do happen, it is the club's that take action. I have seen this first hand and have myself been cautioned when I have flirted with a club rule. Should AMA get involved? Yes, if the club is not correctly dealing with offenders. I have yet to see the need for AMA to step in on rules violations.

Scott's renewal mishap. I never claimed he had fabricated the story. I simply would like more details and I observed how easily his story was accepted without such details. IMO it was accepted so quickly because this forum is about bashing the AMA and its staff and his claim supports the forum agenda.

The best for last. Franklin: keep in mind I did not bring him into the conversation this time around but I do feel compelled to express my opinion since his name has been mentioned. Yes he does bring some correct facts with him. Mainly that AMA membership is down, AMA revenue is down, Hansen has said some stupid things, AMA Muncie could be run more effectively. All those things I agree with. My issue with him and why I am not a " Franklin fan " is because he frequently misrepresents other points. Claims such as having to wait for a 40% airplane hovering over the runway as if that was a common event that took place every time he drove to the feild. Airplanes flying at 200 mph, airplanes that weigh in excess of 55 lbs. He presented these three things as an everyday occurrence at any AMA flying site. The truth is that these are all very rare occurrences. I attend many events each year and visit many flying sites and I have yet in 40 years seen an airplane that weighed more then 55 lbs and required a waiver. I have only seen a 200 mph airplane at a jet rally. Bottom line is that if Franklin would just drop his BS embellishment act I would probably listen more to the facts. The next rub is his motives. Why is he so aggressive towards the AMA? I know that Appowner has a negative experience behind his motives but what about Franklin? In one post he states that the EC in Muncie is grossly overpaid but then in another post states that the AMA could not afford to hire him. Clearly he has placed a high value on his time yet spends a great deal of it finding things to dwell on. Example, the EC minutes being late. What could Franklin possibly need that information for? I asked him once and his answer was simply " I'm a member and I am entitled to it." Ask yourself what does Franklin have to gain from all this, clearly there has to be something in it for him, he clearly is not here for the benifit of the hobby. If anyone is able to explain to me how his actions will benifit the hobby I will be happy to listen.
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