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Growth: Whose responsiblity is it?

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Old 03-13-2019, 09:23 AM
  #26  
speedracerntrixie
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Ira, I don't think it was the AMA that is enforcing membership to club members. Property owners require some sort of liability insurance in order for the club to use the land. AMA has always been the most cost effective option to provide the insurance that the property owners require. Most of the flying sites in my state are located on county property and AMA is an easily recognizable organization within the county operators. I do agree that if somone is not interested in the club atmosphere then the AMA has little value to them. As I have stated before, this hobby is just as much of a social activity to me as it is flying.


I would really hate to see this thread go down the path of blaming the AMA for the current status of our hobby. There is plenty of blame to go around IMO. I think we have hit on the current technology taking the place of face to face interaction, I feel the the current business direction of our retailers is doing its fair share of damage as well. IMO we really do need to bring back the mom and pop hobby shops. Not because that is the easiest, least expensive way to get our supplies, but it would be the best way to reach the general public. Many many times when working the counter somone would walk into the shop that just happen to be there by chance or on vacation and " wanted to check it out ". More times then not that person became a customer.

I also feel that when we have the chance to mentor and pass our knowledge we should do so. We can all take on the role as ambassadors of the hobby. Enthusiasm breeds enthusiasm but it works the same way with negativity as well.
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Ira, I don't think it was the AMA that is enforcing membership to club members. Property owners require some sort of liability insurance in order for the club to use the land. AMA has always been the most cost effective option to provide the insurance that the property owners require. Most of the flying sites in my state are located on county property and AMA is an easily recognizable organization within the county operators. I do agree that if somone is not interested in the club atmosphere then the AMA has little value to them. As I have stated before, this hobby is just as much of a social activity to me as it is flying.


I would really hate to see this thread go down the path of blaming the AMA for the current status of our hobby. There is plenty of blame to go around IMO. I think we have hit on the current technology taking the place of face to face interaction, I feel the the current business direction of our retailers is doing its fair share of damage as well. IMO we really do need to bring back the mom and pop hobby shops. Not because that is the easiest, least expensive way to get our supplies, but it would be the best way to reach the general public. Many many times when working the counter somone would walk into the shop that just happen to be there by chance or on vacation and " wanted to check it out ". More times then not that person became a customer.

I also feel that when we have the chance to mentor and pass our knowledge we should do so. We can all take on the role as ambassadors of the hobby. Enthusiasm breeds enthusiasm but it works the same way with negativity as well.
I agree. One thing every member should do is simply bring up the subject of RC flying to just about everyone you run into in everyday conversation..
You would be surprised of just how many people may be interested but they have never heard much if anything about the hobby. If the person you're talking to shows a bit of interest, keep the subject going. He or she will exhibit whether they are interested in the subject, or if not, they will show that too. Then simply change the subject. When I ran a hobby shop, I would ask everyone who came in the store if they were interested in learning to fly RC airplanes. Most claimed they had no interest, so I suggested that they come out to the flying field simply to watch. Once I got the plane in the air
I would hand them the transmitter and suddenly the previously uninterested customer became suddenly interested. My wife would bring up that her husband is into the hobby to most anyone and more times than not, they would say that someone they knew was a aeromodeler, be it a relative, friend or someone they knew once visited a flying field and saw people flying R/C airplanes. You don't know who is or might be interested unless you ask. Keep it to yourself thinking that no one else is interested is a self for filling prophecy. At minimum, the seed will be planted.
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:10 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Ira, I don't think it was the AMA that is enforcing membership to club members. Property owners require some sort of liability insurance in order for the club to use the land. AMA has always been the most cost effective option to provide the insurance that the property owners require. Most of the flying sites in my state are located on county property and AMA is an easily recognizable organization within the county operators. I do agree that if somone is not interested in the club atmosphere then the AMA has little value to them. As I have stated before, this hobby is just as much of a social activity to me as it is flying.


I would really hate to see this thread go down the path of blaming the AMA for the current status of our hobby. There is plenty of blame to go around IMO. I think we have hit on the current technology taking the place of face to face interaction, I feel the the current business direction of our retailers is doing its fair share of damage as well. IMO we really do need to bring back the mom and pop hobby shops. Not because that is the easiest, least expensive way to get our supplies, but it would be the best way to reach the general public. Many many times when working the counter somone would walk into the shop that just happen to be there by chance or on vacation and " wanted to check it out ". More times then not that person became a customer.

I also feel that when we have the chance to mentor and pass our knowledge we should do so. We can all take on the role as ambassadors of the hobby. Enthusiasm breeds enthusiasm but it works the same way with negativity as well.
I have to disagree with you about the AMA, I know for a fact that the AMA tells clubs not to let non members fly. As for insurance the clubs have their on insurance that is independent of the flyers that covers the land owner.
Also there are other types of insurance that a individual may have.

I find it strange that RC flying is the only sport activity that I know of that requires all participants to belong to a specific org in order to use club facilities, there may be others but you don't hear much about them. But in
any case my point was that if RC clubs did not enforce AMA membership there would be a lot less AMA members.
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:25 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by ira d View Post
But in any case my point was that if RC clubs did not enforce AMA membership there would be a lot less AMA members.
And I just so happen to have a handy poll to back you up on this .

Out of 114 respondents , by a 64% margin , our fellow AMA members have voted they belong "because they have to" in my poll thread "Are you an AMA member because you want to be , or because you have to be ?" .
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:43 PM
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I think this thread topic is a good one as I think we do need to promote the hobby and gain participation. Frankly I donít feel the need to keep beating the dead horse on AMA shortcomings. I personally feel that everyone has had their say on that subject. Of course everyone is free to share their opinion, I myself am done with the disagreements that always follow comments about the AMA.
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:57 PM
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In response to Ira, there are more organizations that require membership to participate than just the AMA. To race R/C boats in the US, you have to be a member of the APBA, IMPBA or NAMBA. To race top fuel or funny car, you have to be a member of the NHRA. These are just a few examples of organizations you must join to participate so it's not just the AMA and flying clubs that make membership a requirement.
Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
I think this thread topic is a good one as I think we do need to promote the hobby and gain participation. Frankly I donít feel the need to keep beating the dead horse on AMA shortcomings. I personally feel that everyone has had their say on that subject. Of course everyone is free to share their opinion, I myself am done with the disagreements that always follow comments about the AMA.
Speed, we may have a problem here. Twice in a thread we agree on something
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Old 03-13-2019, 04:37 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Ira, I don't think it was the AMA that is enforcing membership to club members. Property owners require some sort of liability insurance in order for the club to use the land. AMA has always been the most cost effective option to provide the insurance that the property owners require. Most of the flying sites in my state are located on county property and AMA is an easily recognizable organization within the county operators. I do agree that if somone is not interested in the club atmosphere then the AMA has little value to them. As I have stated before, this hobby is just as much of a social activity to me as it is flying.


I would really hate to see this thread go down the path of blaming the AMA for the current status of our hobby. There is plenty of blame to go around IMO. I think we have hit on the current technology taking the place of face to face interaction, I feel the the current business direction of our retailers is doing its fair share of damage as well. IMO we really do need to bring back the mom and pop hobby shops. Not because that is the easiest, least expensive way to get our supplies, but it would be the best way to reach the general public. Many many times when working the counter somone would walk into the shop that just happen to be there by chance or on vacation and " wanted to check it out ". More times then not that person became a customer.

I also feel that when we have the chance to mentor and pass our knowledge we should do so. We can all take on the role as ambassadors of the hobby. Enthusiasm breeds enthusiasm but it works the same way with negativity as well.
I think we should all keep in mind that being ambassadors of the hobby is about more than just attracting new enthusiasts, though that is a huge part of it. I think it is important to be ambassadors to the public in general regarding the way we conduct ourselves while enjoying this wonderful hobby of ours. Just a thought.
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Old 03-13-2019, 05:05 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
In response to Ira, there are more organizations that require membership to participate than just the AMA. To race R/C boats in the US, you have to be a member of the APBA, IMPBA or NAMBA. To race top fuel or funny car, you have to be a member of the NHRA. These are just a few examples of organizations you must join to participate so it's not just the AMA and flying clubs that make membership a requirement.

Speed, we may have a problem here. Twice in a thread we agree on something
Yes I can understand when participating in competitions having to join a org but when it comes pure recreation activities I don't see that as being the case.
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Old 03-13-2019, 06:14 PM
  #34  
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Work it from the other direction. Where would you be if there was no AMA. What rules and regulations does that leave you to fly with. I guess everyone would at least be equal.

Along comes an organization that petitions on behalf of its members for a exemption to the rules why would they not insist you be a member to enjoy the fruits of the effort that has been put forward????????
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Old 03-14-2019, 12:57 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
Work it from the other direction. Where would you be if there was no AMA. What rules and regulations does that leave you to fly with. I guess everyone would at least be equal.

Along comes an organization that petitions on behalf of its members for a exemption to the rules why would they not insist you be a member to enjoy the fruits of the effort that has been put forward????????
Tell us! Where would we be? I haven't a good laugh over a fortune teller for a long time now.

But don't be stupid! Fact is, the AMA is here and we simply have to deal with the facts. And another fact is that without the AMA, I suspect something similar would have come along. But to speculate about it is about as beneficial to this conversation as the number of Angels one can stack on a pin head.

But the bottom line is, the responsibility for the growth of the hobby falls on each and every participant at the grass roots level. AMA member or not. And the AMA through policy and actions can do no more than guide and encourage ALL modelers to spread the word.

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Old 03-14-2019, 01:00 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
In response to Ira, there are more organizations that require membership to participate than just the AMA. To race R/C boats in the US, you have to be a member of the APBA, IMPBA or NAMBA. ................
Hey! Don't forget the AMYA. Raise your sails and get blown!
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Old 03-14-2019, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Appowner View Post
Hey! Don't forget the AMYA. Raise your sails and get blown!
Now you didn't expect me to list all of the sanctioning groups, did you? I was just pointing out a few that cover a majority of boat racing. The AMYA doesn't apply to anything but sailboats so most have never heard of it, kind of like newcomers to aviation knowing about the AMA
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Old 03-14-2019, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
Work it from the other direction. Where would you be if there was no AMA. What rules and regulations does that leave you to fly with. I guess everyone would at least be equal.

Along comes an organization that petitions on behalf of its members for a exemption to the rules why would they not insist you be a member to enjoy the fruits of the effort that has been put forward????????

Almost impossible to know where we would be from an organizational standpoint. We could take a look at some countries that have no aero modeling CBO for some perspective. IMO we would certainly have fewer developed sites to fly from. The competition side would look very different as some events are AMA specific. Q500 racing, Q40 racing, F1 pylon may never have existed, Quarter midget racing may never have existed, AMA pattern and some of R/C soaring. These events as currently flown are/were US specific and sanctioned by the AMA. Without the AMA we would have most likely adopted the more widely accepted FAI events. Not saying that would have been a bad thing just different.
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Old 03-14-2019, 09:50 AM
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All I'm saying if there was no CBO be it AMA or otherwise you would most likely be flying under the limits set down by the FAA. Everyone equal. No one to petition on anyone's behalf.

Be it the AMA or any organization that petitioned for greater latitude and were granted exceptions for its members then by the same token you would be required to be a member to benifit.

I have belonged to many different organizations in my lifetime and every one required membership to participate.

Dennis
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Old 03-14-2019, 10:13 AM
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Dennis, I agree with both points. The reason why I advocate joining the AMA . The more members we have the louder the voice. Realistically though I seriously doubt that any lobby group with only 200,000 members is going to have any real pull with the US congress. That being said, its the FAA that are coming up with the regulations, Congress will most likely sign off on whatever regulations the FAA deems fit along with any exemptions. IMO the FAA recognizes the value of the AMA and its members.
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:04 AM
  #41  
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Old 03-15-2019, 04:01 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
IMO the FAA recognizes the value of the AMA and its members.
You are always welcome to your opinion. However, I would hope that your opinion is based on some kind of facts, first-hand experience, insider information...
Do you have any facts to support your opinion?
Based on what I have seen so far, my opinion is that the FAA is not all that impressed with the AMA.

Regards,

Astro
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Old 03-15-2019, 04:54 AM
  #43  
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If the FAA is so impressed with the AMA, then why hasn't the FAA formally recognized the AMA as an sUAS CBO?

And what does this have to do with who is responsible for the growth of the hobby?
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:14 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
You are always welcome to your opinion. However, I would hope that your opinion is based on some kind of facts, first-hand experience, insider information...
Do you have any facts to support your opinion?
Based on what I have seen so far, my opinion is that the FAA is not all that impressed with the AMA.

Regards,

Astro
Im happy to share how I am able to come to that conclusion. First off the FAA has pretty much always worked with the AMA and modelers in general. Currently they are attempting to come up with regulations that will not handicap us too badly. If they weren't concerned with AMA and its members we would most likely have seen more harsh restrictions. We also have some support from AOPA. Modelers are good for the aerospace industry as a whole. Many like myself evolved our hobby into our vocation. I know a few R/C pilots that went on to be airline or corporate pilots. Lots of innovation began with models. Burt Rutan for example started with models. There are positive indicators there if you choose to see them.

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Old 03-19-2019, 05:00 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
There are positive indicators there if you choose to see them.
Whether I choose to see them or not is NOT relevant. I asked for facts. "Positive indicators" (whatever that means) do NOT constitute facts...

If you choose to form your opinion and draw conclusions based on what you mentioned, that is certainly your prerogative, just be aware that it will always be only just that.....your opinion.

Regards,

Astro
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Old 03-19-2019, 06:37 PM
  #46  
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Well then how about some facts that support your opinion?
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Old 03-19-2019, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Well then how about some facts that support your opinion?
Well, here's a couple for starters...

FACT: after 80 years of being the premier organization for model aviation, The AMA SHOULD be a shoe-in for CBO status, yet they are not.
FACT: AMA members do not enjoy a single benefit or exemption from the FAA rules than non-members.

Astro
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Old 03-20-2019, 04:42 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
Well, here's a couple for starters...

FACT: after 80 years of being the premier organization for model aviation, The AMA SHOULD be a shoe-in for CBO status, yet they are not.
FACT: AMA members do not enjoy a single benefit or exemption from the FAA rules than non-members.

Astro
I would ask WHAT has the AMA done for it's members to deserve some kind of special treatment? And should the AMA continue to push this concept where the AMA appears "Special" while the vast majority (80%) of sUAS recreational operators are now shunned in some way? Is this the impression the AMA wants to portray? But I agree with you for the most part.

Been trying to find it but can't but there's a "Partner" list the FAA maintains for all the partners it has in this drone thing. Last I saw it the AMA was no where to be seen............................. Now I see where Hanson is a member of DAC.

Never got the impression in dealing with my Senators and Congressman that they or their staffers were very impressed with the AMA. And some of this interaction was face to face in their offices.

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Old 03-20-2019, 05:37 AM
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I remember when the AMA was able to work with the Government and the FCC to protect the radio frequencies that we all used at the time. It seemed that there was a general understanding of who and what the AMA was and what it represented and was recognized and respected for its relevance by the government and the general public. The AMA was granted "special" treatment by being granted a range of frequencies to be used for model aviation.

Now, it is clear that the Government and general public do not view "us" with the same respect and relevance.

Many, many things have changed since then that I believe have contributed in a large part to where we are today. I will not focus on how the world around us, or how society itself has changed, but rather where I believe the AMA let us down and what they could have done to help "our" cause and keep model aviation relevant and have a chance at carving out exemptions and protecting model aviation.

First off, I believe the AMA IS, "us" and, "we" ARE the AMA. The messages and vibe I get from Muncie is more of a top-down style of managing and directing, creating an "US vs. THEM" atmosphere that has seemed to become the accepted norm by the majority of AMA members. Many discussions at club meetings are the club officers communicating the directions of AMA management to the membership. In my opinion, club meetings are the place where the local membership is able to bring their wants, needs, concerns and opinions to the local club leadership for them to convey to our area AMA representatives. In turn, our area AMA reps are responsible to take our collective voice to the AMA leadership for discussion and consideration, providing them the direction the collective membership wishes the organization to pursue. I also believe that ALL blame should not be directed at AMA leadership, because I have also witnessed general malaise and lack of participation by the vast majority of AMA members when it comes to being engaged in any AMA affairs, other than those that directly affect their their ability to bring a plane to the field and be able to fly when and how they want.

Second, I believe the AMA lost focus on the vast majority of its' membership and our roots in model aviation, by simply focusing largely on growth; growth ="good", growth = $$.. The AMA had blinders on when the technology for affordable, autonomous, GPS capable, FPV flight hit the consumer market. I believe they saw this simply as an opportunity to bloat the membership and grow the bank account instead of focusing on representing its members' needs. It is very clear to me that the vast majority of the "drone" demographic, do NOT fit the same mold, nor do they have the same wants, needs and expectations of the AMA as do the members that had "built" the AMA to that point. I believe the AMA errantly romanced the drones in order to "grow", believing that would, in some way, keep them "relevant" in the FAA's eyes, all the time ca$hing in on a new source of income. The AMA did not need to "SHUN" the droners, they simply had to clearly differentiate between the hobby of "model aviation" and the hobby of "droning" i.e. autonomous flight, GPS guided, BLOS, FPV assisted-flight as well as aerial photography aerial cinema buffs. While SOME of these activities can be considered somewhat related to "traditional" activities of building and flying models for the sheer joy of building and flying models, it has become clear to me that they are distinctly different hobbies, drawing a different demographic and CLEARLY needing a distinctly different set of rules in order to fly safely within our NAS. It is also clear to me that by inviting these distinctly different demographics into the AMA fold, it has created a "divided" membership, that has less of a chance of putting together a unified front to fight for any kind of "special" status with the FAA.

That is just a PART of my $.02!!

Regards,

Astro
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Old 03-20-2019, 09:43 AM
  #50  
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On further thought, I take back my question. It shouldn't be "WHAT has the AMA done for it's members to deserve some kind of special treatment?"

But rather "What have the members and clubs done to deserve some kind of special treatment?" After all, these are the parts the public sees most. These are the ones (good or bad) who are in the news, or not!

The members and clubs should be reporting to Muncie the good things they do for their communities. The outreach if you will. Then Muncie can report these things to the government for points and maybe some special consideration. Instead the system seems to be broken down at the individual and club level. And I'm not talking about contests, new members, etc. I'm talking events involving the community. Malls shows, scout troops, schools, etc. Clubs and individuals MUST get out there and spread the word.

But from where I sit, not enough of this is being done.
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