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Growth: Whose responsiblity is it?

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Old 03-22-2019, 05:29 PM
  #101  
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I feel confident in what the AMA has emailed me when I have asked. I feel confident flying among a bunch of club members who regularly exceed 400 ft. I think APPY spends to much time at his keyboard hijacking others threads to throw rocks at the AMA like a spiteful child.



I apologize to the op for lowering myself to his level and contributing to the hijacking of this thread. I honestly don’t know who has the responsibility to grow the hobby and I can’t say for sure if there is a responsibility to grow the hobby. For me I am originally self taught but enjoy sharing what I know with anyone else. I also like to learn from others hobby wise. At present my club has tasked me to come up with some sort of mentoring program. I think I have to get my head around what is a mentor before I can come up with anything. Heck I have seen beginners helping other beginners starting and tuning their engines, charging batteries, getting out and putting together each others airplanes. Isn’t this too a type of mentoring? Where does it start?

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Old 03-22-2019, 05:40 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post


I suppose it could be possible for the FAA to come to that conclusion although I think it would be a mis informed decision.


That is kind of what I have been trying to say all along. I think all of us here (well, the vast majority of us anyway!) agree that we feel it is mis-informed of the FAA to NOT have already granted exemptions to the AMA and its members. To me, it is a no-brainer and THAT is why I am generally disappointed in the AMA leadership. I do not think it should be too difficult for them to carve out an agreement and exemptions for us from the FAA, yet they HAVEN'T.
Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
There once was a time when some ( very few ) competitive pilots would draw a paycheck. At this point in history virtually nobody gets equipment for free. Yes they get discounts but as part of the deal to be a team member that are required to be flying the latest and greatest. This means that they have to buy equipment more frequently. Yes they are able to sell the old stuff off but in the long run it costs more to be a team pilot. They are also required to attend certain events in their region and receive no compensation/reimbursement for this. Simply put, guys do it simply because they want to and it feeds their ego.
Trust me, I get it. Nobody is getting rich in this hobby, it just doesn't mean that the powers that be will see it differently.....

Regards,

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Old 03-22-2019, 05:42 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
I know it's a stretch , but , could the difference be that the average sport pilot wouldn't be frequently pushing the equipment to the ends of it's safe operating limits like a competition pilot might ? Like I said , I know it's a stretch but I really can't think of any other reason other than the increased danger of any machine being operated in an attempt to best the operation of similar machinery in competition .

I know at times it may seem that I am disagreeing with somone just for the sake of disagreeing. Trust me that is not the case. I would argue here that competitive pilots are much safer then sport pilots. For one, their equipment is maintained much better. The equipment selection is better thought out. A sport pilot may make a servo choice based on saving 100.00 for the set. The airplanes are usually better set up, and of course there is the difference in skill set. Yes there are some very talented sport pilots out there however a competitive pilot spends a great deal of time practicing the same things over and over.

All that being said, the FAA only has two categories, recreational and commercial. Without taxable income from being a competition pilot he is automatically placed into the recreational category.
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Old 03-22-2019, 05:43 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
I feel confident in what the AMA has emailed me when I have asked. I feel confident flying among a bunch of club members who regularly exceed 400 ft.
What does this mean? You feel confident? Confident that what?
You type a lot of words sometimes, but say nothing...

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Old 03-23-2019, 03:53 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post



I know at times it may seem that I am disagreeing with somone just for the sake of disagreeing. Trust me that is not the case. I would argue here that competitive pilots are much safer then sport pilots.
Speedy the Minions have now piled on, the thread has been hijacked so far off the ops original topic its never coming back. They can't seem to do anything but turn every thread they participate into another AMA bashing thread by the Minions. Someone have a banana to distract them LOL
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Old 03-23-2019, 03:56 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
While on my 600 mile drive today I came to a few conclusions. First is that virtually all the AMA sanctioned sites I have flown from have been located relatively close to some sort of metropolis area. Could this mean that they would also be in controlled airspace? I did punch up Before you fly as I passed within a mile of the club field I plan to join coming into Portland and it is in controlled airspace so I think I am all good there. I will make some calls tomorrow to verify. Being that most sanctioned sites may be inside controlled airspace this exemption situation just may be playing out on its own to a certain degree.

Secondly is that I couldn't think of anything that would differentiate a sport pilot from a competition pilot in the eyes of the FAA. Anyone have any insights on that one?
In the past the FAA has differentiated between commercial and recreation by whether or not any compensation was received. i.e., were you paid in any way? Going on this I would say a competitor competing for the fun of it would be considered recreational. While someone with a sponsor is being compensated and thereby, commercial. That IMO is playing it safe. But I would check with the FAA to be sure.
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Old 03-23-2019, 03:59 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
................................

I apologize to the op for lowering myself to his level and contributing to the hijacking of this thread............................................ ........................

Dennis
And yet you continue to charge right in and do it!

But even drifting off topic helps one understand WHY responsibility for the growth of the hobby is so mis-understood and ignored.
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Old 03-23-2019, 04:06 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
Speedy the Minions have now piled on, the thread has been hijacked so far off the ops original topic its never coming back. They can't seem to do anything but turn every thread they participate into another AMA bashing thread by the Minions. Someone have a banana to distract them LOL
Classy AND on topic! LOL

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Old 03-23-2019, 04:08 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
I feel confident in what the AMA has emailed me when I have asked. I feel confident flying among a bunch of club members who regularly exceed 400 ft. I think APPY spends to much time at his keyboard hijacking others threads to throw rocks at the AMA like a spiteful child.
.................................................. .................................................. .
Dennis
The thing you fail to understand is the AMA is NOT the definitive authority. The FAA is. And things change, sometimes quite fast, and it is not uncommon to find the AMA preaching outdated rules. Or, so called educated members passing on last years news like you do.

And the bottom line is, it is YOUR responsibility to actually KNOW where and how you're flying. Not the AMA, not the FAA, not some club you're visiting. If you can't check the class of the airspace you're flying in, you should stay on the ground. Because it's pretty obvious you are part of the problem, not the solution. As I've said before, the responsibility for the growth of this hobby is NOT the AMA. It's the local modelers and clubs. Easy to see what you've contributed.

And BTW, flying sites are not sanctioned. Flying sites are nothing but, flying sites. Contests/events are sanctioned. Clubs are chartered. You don't even understand the very basics of AMA membership, how can you be expected to know anything else?

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Old 03-23-2019, 04:26 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
Classy AND on topic! LOL

Astro
You mean the way he resorts to name calling when he can't put up a reasoned argument? And actually, he demonstrates exactly what is wrong with the growth of the hobby. He no doubt has chased away more than his share of new participants just with the outdated information he spews around.
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Old 03-23-2019, 04:47 AM
  #111  
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nvm....

Last edited by init4fun; 03-23-2019 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 03-23-2019, 05:24 AM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
..............
All that being said, the FAA only has two categories, recreational and commercial. Without taxable income from being a competition pilot he is automatically placed into the recreational category.

Where did you get the taxable income thing from? The FAA simply states, "Compensation".
From the FAA FAQs: What is the definition of recreational or hobby use of a UAS or drone?
Recreational or hobby UAS or drone use is flying for enjoyment and not for work, business purposes, or for compensation or hire.

In theory, your local hobby shop gives you an engine in return for you displaying their name on your plane. You have been "Compensated" by any definition in the tax code and business law. In theory you take a picture with your drone and give it to your neighbor and they give you a beer for your effort, YOU have been Compensated.

Now, imagine you use an OS engine you paid for. And you stick one of their OS stickers on your plane next to the engine. FAA pays a visit to a contest and asks for your 107 cert. You don't have one. But he says, you have a sponsor. That OS sticker proves it. But 'NO' you say. They didn't pay you anything. "Prove it!"

It is, as the Brits might say, a Sticky Wicket. So let me ask this, has anyone here asked the FAA about this situation? Anyone? Beuller? Beuller?



BTW, I asked but haven't got a response yet.

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Old 03-23-2019, 05:25 AM
  #113  
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nvm....

Last edited by init4fun; 03-23-2019 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 03-23-2019, 06:02 AM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by Appowner View Post
You mean the way he resorts to name calling when he can't put up a reasoned argument?
Yes, but I'm pretty much used to it here, unfortunately...

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Old 03-23-2019, 07:09 AM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by Appowner View Post
Where did you get the taxable income thing from? The FAA simply states, "Compensation".
From the FAA FAQs: What is the definition of recreational or hobby use of a UAS or drone?
Recreational or hobby UAS or drone use is flying for enjoyment and not for work, business purposes, or for compensation or hire.

In theory, your local hobby shop gives you an engine in return for you displaying their name on your plane. You have been "Compensated" by any definition in the tax code and business law. In theory you take a picture with your drone and give it to your neighbor and they give you a beer for your effort, YOU have been Compensated.

Now, imagine you use an OS engine you paid for. And you stick one of their OS stickers on your plane next to the engine. FAA pays a visit to a contest and asks for your 107 cert. You don't have one. But he says, you have a sponsor. That OS sticker proves it. But 'NO' you say. They didn't pay you anything. "Prove it!"

It is, as the Brits might say, a Sticky Wicket. So let me ask this, has anyone here asked the FAA about this situation? Anyone? Beuller? Beuller?



BTW, I asked but haven't got a response yet.
I agree that there is a fine line there but honestly there are the " what ifs" and then there is reality. If one is to be charged with any crime in this country they must be proven guilty. The FAA is not going to be prosecuting anyone. If it goes beyond issuing a fine, They are going to submit charges to the District Attorney of the county in which the alleged violation took place. The District Attorney in cooperation with an FAA counsel will determine whether or not to follow through on prosecution or not. They will pre determine if they have enough evidence to win the case or not. They have to prove that the pilot was given the equipment as compensation. If money changed hands, they would have to prove it was for compensation and not reimbursement for the pilots expenses.

The other reality is that virtually nobody gets anything for free. As I have stated, sponsored pilots still pay a discounted price for their equipment. As I have said before, there is just not enough money in this hobby to give guys free rides and pay them to fly your products.
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Old 03-23-2019, 07:12 AM
  #116  
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As far as behavior in these forums are concerned, we ALL are guilty of crossing that line. If all of us spoke to one another in the same manner as we would in person we may actually get something accomplished.
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:33 AM
  #117  
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I have no doubt some of these bickerings make their way to the flying field as well. Where the guests and prospective new participants can witness them. Even if it's nothing more than someone telling stories of what has gone on on some forum. I have no doubt such goes on simply because it's human nature.

I wonder how many prospective new members have been chased away by this? So whose responsibility is it really for the growth of the hobby?
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Old 03-24-2019, 06:11 AM
  #118  
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fliers1, I agree with the answer that Mr. Brown gave to his question "Growth, Who`s responsibility is it?", is that it is a responsibility shared by all of us. As a member of a club, I would be doing the hobby a great disservice by making a newcomer feel the least bit unwelcome by demonstrating the often mentioned "cliquish" behavior. As a consumer of R/C goods, I feel like I would be doing the hobby a disservice by not buying from my local hobby shop in order to save a buck or two. Sadly for more and more of us this is no longer a choice. Also, I`ve witnessed first hand on this forum less than friendly behavior towards newbies that join this forum that may have just gone away scratching their heads. Please don`t ask me to quote when and where but we all have seen it at one time or another.
By the way, I commend you on your unfailing effort of goodwill ambassadorship with your mentoring and standing offer of teaching anyone to fly. If I am ever in the area I`d love to look you up and maybe swap some stories and do some flying.
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Old 03-24-2019, 06:58 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by Stickslammer View Post
fliers1, I agree with the answer that Mr. Brown gave to his question "Growth, Who`s responsibility is it?", is that it is a responsibility shared by all of us. As a member of a club, I would be doing the hobby a great disservice by making a newcomer feel the least bit unwelcome by demonstrating the often mentioned "cliquish" behavior. As a consumer of R/C goods, I feel like I would be doing the hobby a disservice by not buying from my local hobby shop in order to save a buck or two. Sadly for more and more of us this is no longer a choice. Also, I`ve witnessed first hand on this forum less than friendly behavior towards newbies that join this forum that may have just gone away scratching their heads. Please don`t ask me to quote when and where but we all have seen it at one time or another.
By the way, I commend you on your unfailing effort of goodwill ambassadorship with your mentoring and standing offer of teaching anyone to fly. If I am ever in the area I`d love to look you up and maybe swap some stories and do some flying.
Sticklammer,

Thanks for the kudos,
I've been fighting this battle for over 40 years. I've belonged to 5 different clubs and all have given me a hard time for my promotion efforts. When I would go to the field, the other instructors would be flying or sitting shooting the breeze, that is until I pulled in the drive way. When they saw me coming, they would jump up and finally give the waiting beginners some attention. Why? I can only guess.

I was assured that the public wasn't interested in our hobby, so just to do a little research and really with no intention of doing so, I placed an ad in Model Aviation and RCM for a flight school. Back in 1996 Dave Brown assured me that was no "absolutely the best teaching method" . I went to Muncie twice to help teach during their open house they called the Grand Event to demonstrate my teaching method. I gave a non flier a lesson in 20 mph winds and had him land
on his first lesson, with a little assistance from me. A past official was a witness. He told me that AMA wasn't interested in what he saw. lol

Immediately, I received many replies. Big mistake. So I made arrangements for my new customers to come to my flying field to take lessons from me. Since the club I belonged to declared that I couldn't run a commercial flight school on a county owned field, I told my first student that I was teaching for free. After a couple of hours of flying, my student couldn't contain himself was jumping up and down like a kid. He was so happy that he said he couldn't take advantage of my generosity, so he said that he would make a donation so that it wasn't technically a charge.

After that, I continued to receive emails and calls from people desperate to learn how to fly. To make a long story short, I probably trained well over 300 people within 20 years. The club tried to kick me off the field, but like I said, it was a county owned field and that was something they couldn't do. Funny thing, I offered let the club's other instructors teach some of my students, but they turned my offer down again and again. BTW, I contacted AMA and they said they were following this and other threads.

When at meetings at most of the clubs I belonged to, I laid down Sign 3 and Fly Free applications, after they complained of dues increases. The other members looked at me like I was handing them dog doo. lol
That's all I got to say about that. lol (Forrest Gump)

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Old 03-24-2019, 09:17 AM
  #120  
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Well, there you have it. No one can argue with a guy that walks the walk as successfully as you have over the years. I`m gonna get off my soapbox now and get out to the field, because it`s 70+ degrees here in SE Tennessee and very little wind.
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Old 03-24-2019, 09:34 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Stickslammer View Post
Well, there you have it. No one can argue with a guy that walks the walk as successfully as you have over the years. I`m gonna get off my soapbox now and get out to the field, because it`s 70+ degrees here in SE Tennessee and very little wind.
Must be nice. Have a great day flying. Won't be flying weather here for a while.
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Old 03-24-2019, 11:24 AM
  #122  
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Most of this crap ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Most of these posts^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is why the hobby isn't growing. Tell me what person wants to go listen to a bunch of people ***** and moan and look down on them, especially young people.
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:01 PM
  #123  
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Ah Yup! Welcome to the world of the keyboard commando. The age of modern social media! Where 2nd grade commentary rules. Where rules are enforced ad hoc! And where your rights may or may not be supported while the most cowardly come on like John Wayne (but they're still cowards).

Plus 1 to you fliers1. I too have seen clubs like you have. Belonged to at least 6 if memory serves. Funny, the best club was in Germany. Had more fun there than a Canuck in the states.

And I agree, the responsibility belongs to all of us. A shame most don't see it that way.
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:40 PM
  #124  
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Question: How many Canucks does it take to change a light bulb?
Answer: Two, one to make the Martinis and one to call the electrician.
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:49 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by Stickslammer View Post
Question: How many Canucks does it take to change a light bulb?
Answer: Two, one to make the Martinis and one to call the electrician.
As long as they spend their vacation/tourist money in the U.S., boosting our economy and increasing my portfolio, I don't care what they drink or how they change a light bulb. They can screw it in and out of each others butt for all I care. But it would be nice if they simply sent their money down here and then stayed up north.

But when did they ever advance to Martinis? I thought beer was the national sedative.

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