Hossfly

AMA is sending letters to clubs referencing the Introductory Pilots for next year.

Using the old form with limit of 3 even though that was voted out by EC back last Feb.

Sent this to J Hager DB and SF;

>>>>>>>

Executive Council Meeting, Saturday, February 08, 2003:
QUOTE:
MOTION VII: Moved and seconded, to remove the limit from the number of Intro Pilots allowed in a club.

MOTION passed unanimously
UNQUOTE.

1. Why are Clubs being circulated a letter from AMA requesting 2004 Intro Pilot list using the old form limiting such to "Three (3)"?

2. Why has AMA Document 906 not been updated?

IMO -- which is not really worth much -- I find it shameful that AMA cannot find the time or proficiency to maintain the most simple records and/or abide by the rules that they make and levy on a membership which has no clue as to what AMA is SUPPOSED to be doing much less what it does.

All these Club Officers receiving these letters should not be expected to have to research through AMA EC records to find what is and what isn't. Along with the constant screw-ups concerning dues, donations, (mine each year and a significant number of other club members), and membership, it just seems that AMA cares as little for their own work-proficiency as the membership cares for AMA itself.

Perhaps that is why AMA expends so little effort in maintaining these basic administrative functions in an orderly format.


Horrace D. Cain
************************

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
<<<<<<<<<

ballgunner

My Feedback: (1)

I have to agree on this one Horace. There is always the left hand and the right hand going toward opposite places. Since the EC doesn't have regular monthly face to face meetings it is too easy for something to slip by. I don't even want to hear about conference calls. They never work. Isn't the executive director or the Pres. supposed to keep track of things and search out discrepancies ? Reading the minutes is never enough. All secretaries have their own short hand and terms and unless you are an actual participant in the meeting referred to in the minutes the chances of understanding just what took place is next to impossible. Example: Proposal by XX followed by discussion. Motion passed. How many times have you seen this in a set of minutes ? It isn't only AMA but almost every organization, it's just that this hits us closer to home and can have an effect on matters of safety and insurance. Procedures need a drastic update.

Hossfly

Read post #1 and then here is an update.

>>>>>>>>>>>
In a message dated 12/4/2003 9:33:50 AM Central Standard Time, [email protected] writes:

Since it has not implementation date, I can only assume that I would have thought that it would take place for the 2004 club renewal season, since in February we were already 1/2 though 2003. Now as to why the form has not been updated, I will correct that. On a side note there has always been in place that if a club wanted additional intro pilots for their club all they needed to do was request it and it would be reviewed.
<<<<<<<<<<


The above makes absolutely NO SENSE at all.

You sent to clubs an old form requesting information for 2004 Instructors.

The form was NOT requested, therefore the Jetero President and I ASSUMED it was the request normally sent with club charter renewal. We gave you credit for getting ahead of the current trend to last minute charter operations.

If so, your reasoning above is without logic.

If not so, Jetero's list was with the 2003 renewal and previously paid for.

Is someone trying to get an extra 15 bucks along the way? If so, they would be better advised to use much less sophisticated clubs than Jetero's administrators.

BTW why is this letter being sent out now? Is AMA short of their expenditures budgeted for postage?

Horrace D. Cain
************************
*I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts." --Will Rogers

************
Below is a summary of JH's answer to the above with my response which has not been answered.

>>>>>>>>>>>
In a message dated 12/4/2003 2:15:46 PM Central Standard Time, [email protected] writes:

JH: "This is what is recorded in the minutes:

The limit of 3 Intro Pilots (or 10% of club membership) per club was reviewed. It was determined that there is no down side to allowing more than three. The President suggested allowing the club to have "a reasonable number of intro pilots" and let that number be a matter for C. Maroney to decide based on the club.

Then the motion was stated to remove the number of Intro Pilots allowed in a club."
<<<<<<<

HC:
Negative! The motion so recorded states:
Executive Council Meeting, Saturday, February 08, 2003:
QUOTE:
MOTION VII: Moved and seconded, to remove the limit from the number of Intro Pilots allowed in a club.

MOTION passed unanimously
UNQUOTE

Remove the LIMIT spelled LIMIT.

The EC unanimously voted to REMOVE the LIMIT.

You are sending a letter that states there IS a limit, which NO LONGER exists.


JH: >>>>>>>
So I will need Dave to give me some clarification, do I just ignore the discussion as recorded or do I just do as the motions says.
<<<<<<<<<<<

HC: The motion made is the EC's decision.

JH >>>>>>>>>
As to my other comment, I didn't realize that Lois sent out a renewal notice to those clubs with Intro Pilots, so it is not double billing, this payment would be for the upcoming year since their IP status would expire on December 31
<<<<<<<<<<

HC:
Then that is a change from the previous annual operations where the Introductory Pilot tours have always paralleled the Club Charters, April through March. When did you change that?

Here in Houston there are a few top Ex-Executive Officers facing some long jail terms because they allowed staff to make operating decisions without their -- the top EOs -- knowledge, or at least any admitted knowledge. Not a good thing.

Horrace D. Cain
************************
Well done is better than well said. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
(End of this story)

IMO it is no wonder that AMA is so totally screwed up in administrative functions. The top brass cannot keep aware of and/or is unwilling to make corrective actions for staff screw-ups. There is no evidence of any command and control within the echelon.

OTOH, the Competitions department, Kaluf's group, has a Contest Listing Calendar that ranks second-to-none of any and all lists. The AMA Web Contest/Event listing is super and up-to-date, even though events after next April are not processed due to the Insurance thing which is in itself pure fallacy within the Maroney/Hager mind-sets. In any case, Kudos to Kaluf and company

One more item: I sent this: ref. Election results.
Are you not counting Write-in (again)?
Why are Branum's votes not counted?

Horrace D. Cain

>>>>>>
JH answered: "
In a message dated 11/25/2003 2:17:50 PM Central Standard Time, [email protected] writes:

all votes are counted,
Branaum was not on the ballot, so until I get the written report from the auditors, this is what I provided, Obviously if Barnum had received more votes than you or Moss, his name would have appeared
<<<<<<

As of a few minutes ago, no write-in numbers had been posted on the AMA web site under Election Results.

Why are there such changes in operations? Easy answer: Because the membership doesn't vote and those that do vote are strictly status-quo.
Oh Well, here in Houston (I am NOT a Houstonion) sent 20% to the polls to elect a new mayor, that spent 8 million $$$$ for the job. Guess all those supporters will rap-E all those that did not care and those too ignorant to understand, as they bleed the city which bleeds the tax-payers.

Wonder how that works in this little ol' AMA thing????

Horrace Cain

"Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner."
--James Bovard, Civil Libertarian

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

She needs Dave to clarify if she should follow what the motion says??!?!?! I wonder if she knows the meaning of "IS"?

Edit: oops Thanks hossfly!

Hossfly

'51'

He be SHE. Check your MA back page for the AMA Ex. Director, JH.

J_R

Horrace

The subject of the Intro Pilot program was raised on rec.models two or three years ago. As I recall, you were in on that discussion. Someone, and I do not remember who, maybe you, had written to HQ asking about the limit on intro pilots. The e-mail answer was posted. Even back at that time, any club who needed more Intro Pilots could contact the AMA and have more assigned to the club. There was nothing new in the EC meeting, except to formalize the process. I am not trying to pick a fight over this. There are few clubs that are Intro Pilot clubs and even less that need extra pilots. If you need extra pilots, call Carl. You have known that for a couple of years. I can't understand your pretending now.

In the case of the election returns, it is amazing what 25 cents spent on a phone call does. The day after the results were released, I called Joyce. She told me the same thing that she wrote you... the auditors had not sent the final report on the elections.. HOWEVER she also told me that, typically, about 50 votes are recieved for individual write ins. In other words, 50 different names for 50 different write in candidates. She was able to tell me that 3112 validated ballots were cast in D8, IIRC. It did not take a math genius to figure out that Branaum got somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 votes.

Why don't you back off the nasty-grams? Several on the EC have told me they like you as a person, but have little use for your nasty-grams. They even say you are a ***** (or was it *****cat?) in person.

At the same time, you were appointed to the committee involving instructor insurance coverage. Go back and read a thread that Mongo tried to start that got 0 responses a week or so ago. If he would learn to write what he means, it would have gotten many responses. Point is.. you could have or should have known about it's topic and let us know.

JR

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

really, all i wanted to know with that thread, was the question i asked.

abel_pranger

Don't you want to know why somebody has his knickers all knotted up over this?
People screw up. When the admin help screws up and the error is discovered, it gets fixed. No BFD. When the prexy screws the pooch, we live with it and suffer though the revisionism, denial and rationalization.
The emperor's new clothes are such a wonderous sight to behold!

Abel

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

Horace,
Why are you wasting your time, busting the chops of some poor clerical schmuck who works at the AMA? How happy were you when you figured out someone made a mistake that you could write e-mails and show them they f'd up?

Have any of you ever been at the field and had something wrong with your plane and you were about to fix it and three differant people came by and pointed it out and it just made their day to tell you what you already knew? That's what it seems like Horace is doing here.

I am thankful that I don't fly at a club field where this would even be an issue. Is there somewhere in this country that if someone would want to buddy box another person to see what it's like to fly a fricken plane without joining AMA it would be a problem? Designating instructors and intro instructors seems like a huge joke to me.

Hossfly

JR and Basin Bum:

You Reading Comprehension problems are YOUR problems.

However simply because you decide to display your problems in public and because I am such a nice sort, I will without any request for such, offer you a hint.

The rhetoric between JH and myself did not concern the NUMBER of Intro Pilots in a Club per se. It concerned the fact that AMA is sending a separate mailing to clubs -- one that is normally sent with the Charter Package -- USING AN OUTDATED LETTER and requesting the payment for those Intro Pilots which costs a club $5 each.

In addition JH admits to NOT being aware of staff actions concerning member administration. How can one run an organization when remaining unaware of the direction being taken?

Now if that is too far over your heads, then maybe you can stretch up a bit while checking the wet level of the Rope!

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

nah able, i really don't like looking at nekkid old folks.

that original instructor for pay thread was so convoluted, that all i really wanted to know was, if we can really accept pay for instructing now, and do it on chartered club fields.

really suprised at the total lack of reply to the thread though, in light of the paragraph above.

J_R

Horrace

Perhaps it is my reading comprehension skills that are lacking... perhaps not. After reading the first post, by you, in this thread, it is certainly not clear what what you stated in your most recent post is the case. Or.. did you intend that each post in this thread was to stand on it's own and all previous posts, by you, were to be ignored? You're the one that chose what parts and summaries that you would present in this thread. I submit to you that your efforts at authorship are somewhat more lacking than the reading comprehension skills of those of us that can not follow your rather disjunctive postings.

How quickly you seem to forget. Now you post what a wonderful job Steve Kaluf is doing when just a few weeks ago you were whining about not recieving waivers for your pylon sanctions. Just another case to file with your other inconsistencies.

Aren't you the one that is always crying that the AMA does not communicate well and hides things? You are on the insurance committee exploring coverage for professional instructors. You have not told us what is going on and left it to Mongo to disclose that there will be coverage starting next year. Why did you do that, Horrace?

Is it any wonder that I , and apparently others, have problems comprehending your thoughts through your posts?


JR

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

i appreciate the promotion, jr, but, unless something has happened that i am not aware of, i am not the final authority on insurance fer instructors, paid that is.
all i present is my interpetation of what i read in the 04 ins sumary, and ask am i correct?

J_R

Mongo

Horrace should(?) be the authority on that. My information is yes, unless there are changes with another insurance company in 2004, before it can even go into effect.

JR

excaliber

Hey, have you guys no shame. Picking on poor hoss(whatever) He's gotton so old and decreped he keeps falling off his horse in midstream instead of changing. Besides now that the election is over he can devote more time to looking for garbage just so he can see his name on some of these forums that only a few read anyway. Gosh almightly, I wonder just how he would have reacted had he won. Course if things didn't quite go his way, he could always resign again.
Adios

Hossfly

JR: >>>>Perhaps it is my reading comprehension skills that are lacking... perhaps not. After reading the first post, by you, in this thread, it is certainly not clear what what you stated in your most recent post is the case<<<<

Then, Son, you DO have a problem if you cannot correlate those two posts.


JR: >>>>>"How quickly you seem to forget. Now you post what a wonderful job Steve Kaluf is doing when just a few weeks ago you were whining about not recieving waivers for your pylon sanctions. Just another case to file with your other inconsistencies<<<<

Well, little fellow, You are consistent. You consistently display your lack of knowledge. Kaluf does not grant the Waiver. That is for the District VP to do. Kaluf is simply the middle man and administrator, like the middle of the food chain.

JR: >>> You are on the insurance committee exploring coverage for professional instructors. You have not told us what is going on and left it to Mongo to disclose that there will be coverage starting next year. Why did you do that, Horrace? "
<<<<<<<

Why did I do what JR? You say I did not do something and then ask why did I do that? Is that Left Coast double talk?
I hope not since my oldest son was born in Sacramento. Some years ago he was somewhat like that, but by 21 he had outgrown it. How old are you KID?

If Mongo has some insurance answers, he is well ahead of the Committee Chairman and myself. Whatever AMA publishes these days has, IMO, no relationship to reality other than by coincidence.
Was the topic on the Agenda? Yes -- for Committee REPORT?
Was there a motion concerning the topic? NO! Possibly something else used the time, however MA -- JH item -- received its **Mission Statement** BFD! BFD! Again, Membership comes way down the food chain in the AMA Bureaucracy -- like the members get eaten alive early in the game. However they must like it, they all vote for status-quo either on the ballot or by not using the ballot. Ballot -- another item that I am no longer concerned with.

JR, I updated a hanging item. If you like trying to turn things around just to fight with me, sorry, but you have just lost your sparring partner. OTOH if you really are as you display yourself, then what is that old cliche: like better to keep mouth shut and let everyone think you a fool, rather than open mouth and remove all doubt? Your Call!

J_R

Horrace

There is nothing left to say. Unfortunately, you are, rather sadly, misinformed.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

Hi Horrace,

I really have no bone to pick with you, but if you think your posts are concise and understandable, well you need a trusted friend to take a look at them for you and maybe do a sanity check on them.

I am sure in your mind you are making tight, cogent arguments........I think your friend should help you determine whether that is true to the average reader....if you do not care what your average readers think...then rave on!! To me your posts are too full of petty argumentative elements... you seem to let your desire to make a point over certain people cloud your whole position.

I know I have my opinions, and you certainly did not ask for them......but your bitterness towards what appears to be everyone, anything and everything on this forum puts off some........maybe you don't give a **** about that, but as I see you are one of the maybe 5 people on this whole forum that seem to care about anything with the AMA, I value your input.

Crashem

mr_matt ,

If hossfly's posts start to actually make sense their will be no reason to read this forum anymore.

Hossfly keep on keepen on man- I check this forum out to specifically see what outragous tid bit you've chosen to harp on each day and if you were to stop i'm not sure how I'd fill the viod

Askalon

My Feedback: (1)

What's a viod, where do i get one and why is it empty?

Just kidding!

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

Askalon,
It was a typo, he ment to say Vigod, I think.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Nit pickin', It's all nit pickin'.