booger

My Feedback: (4)

A little insight to a problem that we have at our local club. A mentally and physically handy capped man has joined our club, we were willing to help him learn how to fly but by ama guide lines and for all our safety there is no way this man will ever be able to solo. We were willing to have someone on a buddy box with this man so he cold come and enjoy flying. However the man has made claimes with American Disability Act that we treat him like he is retarded and that he can already fly better than 90 percent of the other club members, we wont let him solo or start his own plane. AMA has told us this is our problem they wont be involved in local disputes between club members. I can almost see what there getting at until I look at the point thet they set the safety rules and they wont even back us up on there rules. So enforce AMA rules with out AMA representation? I hope no other clubs get sued for not letting a beginner solo before they are safe!!! AMA wont help you either.

augiep38

My Feedback: (3)

AMA has no time to help with real problems. DB and crew are feverishly trying to protect the hobby from those Freghtening Giant Scale planes, Supersonic 200+ MPH Jets, and people doing rudder touches.

/sarcasm

Todd

booger

My Feedback: (4)

were going to get sued by someone that we tried to help in this sport of ours, because we enforce AMA rules and should just take it acording to AMA. Maybe we should let him fly, he stated that he can fly better than most, then when he damages something or injures someone the AMA can deal with it....

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

i believe that the governing statement here is:

no good deed ever goes unpunished.

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Well, you could take the easy way out. Your excuse is the simple threat of litigation he implies with the ADA comments. It can defend you as well as damn you. The trick is to get it to help you rather than hammer you.

Here is how I would approach the problem. He wants to do everything himself because he is so very competent, so let him. That means he unpacks, sets up, starts and flys his own stuff without aid. It will be hard, but it is the ONLY way you can win. If he gets as far as a crash treat him exactly as another modeler, do not help him other than retrieving the debris. That should solve most of your problems.

FHHuber

What disability is involved that makes you think he can't solo?

Maybe you just need to have someone standing beside him ready to grab the box... instead of having him constantly on the buddy cord.

What effect does his disability have on safely starting and flying the model? Ask him how those safety issues can be covered and still allow him to do it with no assistance. Instead of concentrating on "this is why not." ask "How can it be done?"

The ADA says... reasonable accomodation. If you can't safely accomodate his desire... then there is no case.

Roby

If I was alone at the field with this individual, I would offer to help out
if he needed me. Otherwise I would would stand back and just be ready
to be available.

You and he will never know what he "can" do without trying. There is some risk,
but then again,there is risk associated with everything.

I'm sure I don't have all the facts from your thread, but that is the way I'd do it.

Roby

vpresley

My Feedback: (162)

[&:]About to step in it, but here goes. This is not an AMA problem, as seems to be thought by a few. There is no way in gods green that you can drag the AMA in to this local matter, thats so obviously a special situation. The rules are there in black and white for all, be you challenged medically or mentally, in anyway at all. The key word is SAFETY. The ADA doesn't say the a disabled person can do anything they want, it just says you can't discriminate, in a nut shell. If the the AMA got involved, the Newspaper Headline would read "National Organization Discriminates against the Handicapped" or something like that. The ACLU would get involved and it would be a circus from then on. As usual, you do a good deed and this is what happens. Even the challenged can be ungratefull and make outrageous claims, and sue, hey thats America these days. This might cost the club some lawyer fee's. But I think any litigation, if it went that far, would be in the club's favor. A simple medical and mental examination should be enough to decide the truth of the situation. Would be obvious to the Judge. If he's gonna sue, he will probably lose anyway, but the mere threat of a suit shouldn't intimidate you. You also shouldn't babysit the guy, then you could be held responsible if an accident did happen. Mongo your post #4 covers it. Sorry state of affairs.

Vince

Hossfly

Do you have a prescribed and in-force Check-out for solo on record within your club?
Do you have a list of designated Instructors qualified to administer that check-out?
If not, you should, but that is too late for this situation.

In any case have at least 3 Instructors do a pre-solo flight with the person on individual flights.

Have each Instructor document why the person is considered unsafe.

If he persists, then follow Jim Branum's suggestion (post 5) and invite some of his friends/family members to observe plus other Club members that have not instructed the individual.

My Club worked with an individual for a number of years. We *soloed* him for gliders only, and we don't really do gliders. You know that guy got pretty darn good with those sling-around hand-launched gliders. He finally moved on to a local soaring club, drops by to visit every so often and seems very content with what he is doing.

As others spoke of, it isn't AMA's job, and let's all be glad that AMA does keep their nose out of as much as they will.

F106A

My Feedback: (2)

Booger,
You got in trouble as soon as you said "there's no way he can solo". How do you know that? If the Feds get involved, one of the 1st questions they're going to ask you is what are your professional qualifications that lead you to that determination?
What must a student do to pass the solo flight? There must be some guide lines, people are passing the test. Give him the same test, if he fails, let him do whatever is done to other students who fail and then re-test, if he fails again, you're covered.
ADA does not guarantee the handicapped that they can live the same as a non handicapped person, it just requires you give them the same chance. Reasonable accommodation is a buzz word in the ADA that is very vague in it's meaning. It does not mean that you have to do EVERYTHING POSSIBLE for the handicapped person, only what YOU deem as reasonable. A reasonable accommodation that Microsoft could provide would be entirely different than what Joe's software company could provide for the same handicap. As head of HR for a large manufacturing company I have been a party to several ADA suits and what the Feds are looking for is that you gave a good faith effort to the handicapped person to allow him to succeed.
The down side to all of the above is even if you've done all the above and he files a complaint, and even if you win, it's still going to cost you time and money.
If you need more info on the ADA, PM me.
BRG,
Jon

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

If the AMA can require clubs to do certain things to maintain insurance,
they can and should set the ground rules on HOW TO RUN a club ......

In order to be a taco bell frachise , you have to follow their "Taco Bell" standards
the SAME should be required of AMA chartered clubs, they should follow the AMA standards.

And if a Board or group of members are violating those "AMA" standards, (promoting the hobby)etc

THE AMA should step in and police the situation instead of just collecting our money and washing their hands of it. Who else do we have to turn to other than the "AMA" to
police their own " AMA CHARTERED CLUBS". All that money buys alot of legal muscle to make an organization comform.

vpresley

My Feedback: (162)

John

The AMA is not going to dictate who can and cannot fly, not their job. They set the frame work for membership. The individual Club sets the rules, using the AMA guidelines. Remeber safty comes first, not political correctness. You want to start an uproar, try dictating who can and cannot fly at your club, based on your opinion. See where that goes. Not realistic to ask the AMA to try to administer a you can fly / you can't fly list. There are probably challenged poeple that can fly safely. The question is can this guy ??

Vince

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

"IF You want to start an uproar, try dictating who can and cannot fly at your club, based on your opinion."

Well that seems to be what this subject is about, qualifing people to fly is a very subjective personal interpretation. Just because a person can take off and land does not mean he is safe.
People still get mixed up inbound to a flying site for landing and stuff it thru the pits.

There are people in my club that think they are WARBIRD pilots because they stuff a ys 91 on an 7 lb ARF raceplane, then whine when they beat by real warbird pilots racing 13 lb aircraft that are fully detailed.

"The AMA is not going to dictate who can and cannot fly, not their job. "

I agree its not, but they should step in when an AMA members rights are violated by board officers or other club members, handling it "inhouse" is better than handling it "incourt".

"Not realistic to ask the AMA to try to administer a you can fly / you can't fly list."
Please SEE : Jet wavier list.... the AMA is already doing exactly that.

FHHuber

There is a bit of difference between an established certification program (the Turbine waiver requirements) and a non-exixting basic pilot certification program.

If your club has its solo certificate program established in writing, you have a definitive way to measure if the guy can solo.

If you didn't bother to put it in writing, you have to muddle through with the guy and try to get him soloed... You use some discrecion as to how unsafe his flight gets before the backup takes over. (just like with any solo... if you don't have an instructor backing them up ready to grab and prevent injury accidents... not bright.)

Maybe he'll suprise you and do OK.

booger

My Feedback: (4)

we have three designated traners in our club, they were set with the ama, a person that is in training must pass specific guide line, we even have a check list. litigation with the gov. is next week, we are sticking to our guns that the man hasn't finished the traning check list and hasn't been able to solo. he didn't try to solve this matter through the club by law procedures and is still a safety hazard. The man cant make it one lap around the pattern without loosing control of his plane. Safety is the key in our defense, and we never told him that he wasnt allowed to come out and be involved, most would have helped him as much as they could have but not now. ask the instructor that was helping him if he'll help anyone again.

Taildrager-inactive

My Feedback: (11)

Seems very simple to me, let the guy fly his plane, if it crashes, let him pick up the pieces and go home. Have everyone stand down when he is ready to fly so he has no excuse for crashin, and if he can indeed fly great.

Hossfly

>>>>>>>>> John Casey

If the AMA can require clubs to do certain things to maintain insurance,
they can and should set the ground rules on HOW TO RUN a club ......
<<<<<<<<<<<<<


They do; There are guidelines for corporations, Bylaws and a Safety Code. These are the ground rules

>>>>>>>>>>
In order to be a taco bell frachise , you have to follow their "Taco Bell" standards
the SAME should be required of AMA chartered clubs, they should follow the AMA standards.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

An AMA Charter Club doesn't HAVE to be chartered. There are many options, same as for selling Tacos, especially good ones.
AMA cannot FORCE its way.

>>>>>>>>>>>
And if a Board or group of members are violating those "AMA" standards, (promoting the hobby)etc

THE AMA should step in and police the situation instead of just collecting our money and washing their hands of it. Who else do we have to turn to other than the "AMA" to police their own " AMA CHARTERED CLUBS". All that money buys alot of legal muscle to make an organization comform.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"...make an organization conform." Well, JC, you are a man after DB's heart. He will definitely love you.[>:]

Sieg Hiel, Sieg Hiel!

The AMA is a rather private organization composed of a group of people supposedly with a common interest. AMA is not a legislative body that can dictate absolute compliance with its designated methods. The members CAN quit or work for betterment.
The lesser of AMA into my private club, the better I like it. However I can see that so many do love direct supervision of their personal affairs. So Sad!!![:-]

Kevin Greene

My Feedback: (85)

I agree Taildrager. If this guy is not ready to fly then it won't take too long for this guy to become plane-less. If he is not capable of even starting his plane---Well then you have no worries at all!!!!

To be ADA compliant all the club has to do is to make reasonable accommodations. The club may have to build a table at the correct height so that he can start/service his plane. All the club is responsible for is to enable the handicapped modeler to become SELF SUPPORTING!!! Once this has been accomplished, turn him loose. It is not your responsibility to baby sit him in any way. If the guy makes a flight attempt and crashes---Problem solved. If he does well---Again, problem solved. Have any of the club's officers invited an ADA representative out to the field to witness the handicapped modelers actions??? If the handicapped modeler is truly not ready to fly when flying with a buddy box, then maybe the ADA will side with the club. After all, this would prove to the ADA that the handicaped modeler was lying about his abilities....The ADA needs to be made aware that in the wrong hands these models cause serious injury, property damage, or even death....

Kevin

booger

My Feedback: (4)

isn't there a liability isue, if we did let him fly and he drills his plane into someone or something dont you think that the person affected by this action could sue the club or its officers for letting him fly. do you think the ama would pay out for any of the club members, but i forget they might pay the person affected but wont pay for lawyer fees to back the members. man I need a big umbrella policy. how much would that cost and then why would I need the ama!!!
sorry i dont type very well.[:@]

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

I don't think this is a "special situation" or a "local problem." If a lawsuit involving the ADA does infact happen, it will;

1. Bring more bad press to the hobby,
2. Set LEGAL precedent, which may or may not be beneficial to the hobby.

RichLockyer

That is a problem that we run into when we end up actually assuming liability through our actions, rather than inaction.
At least two of our local clubs have pilots available who are more than happy to assist in flight training.

There are NO checklists that are mandatory prior to solo, for either member or guest pilots.
One club flies at a public facility, and has NO ability to initiate general restrictions until AFTER a pilot has proven to be unsafe.

In these cases, nobody from the clubs has provided express permission to fly in the form of an approval of their ability to fly.

As soon as someone says "Ya, you're good to go", but that person lacks the certification (and insurance coverage) of a formal training organization, then THAT PERSON is personally on the hook for anything that may occur as a result of any lack of skill of the "student".

I'm certainly NOT advocating the elimination of flight training programs, but we should likewise not get into the business of informally licensing RC pilots, because there are no national standards for such. If there were, the hobby would be much smaller than it is today.
The new pilot should stay with his instructor as long as HE feels the need to. The instructor could offer advice ("I can land it, or you can take it home in a bag"), but if the new pilot feels that they are ready to solo, they get one chance to prove that they can handle it. If they fly safely, great. If they are a hazard, ground them or require them to stick with a trainer, but NEVER say "Okay, you're good to go". Let that be the student's call, then it's his problem (and self-assumed liability). All advice from the instructor should err on the side of continued training.


If Booger's guy gets it into court, it could turn into a real mess since the training program the club is using means nothing to the club down the street.
If the guy is going to cop an attitude like that and threaten litigation, I say let the fokker fly and if he stuffs it, it's his problem. ADA requires reasonable accomodation... you've gone beyond that. There is certainly no discrimination.

vpresley

My Feedback: (162)

P51

Seems like you can be completely minding your own business, and something happens that sucks you in these days. The AMA is not, should not be the deciding factor here. They have already made the rules, regs and guidelines for the clubs to follow. The clubs make the rest of the decisions, based on that. The AMA could help with advice or a legal opinion, but that would be it. Well maybe a little money to help the club too. Seems like bad press is a normal thing, is there any other kind these days ? Once it hits the Courts everything goes to hell, just look at Massachussettes. And the worst part, everyone has to live with the mess afterwards. Another sad fact of life now a days. JMHO.

Vince

rw Guinn

As I understan ADA--and I have some experience with it as an engineer--you have to make Reasonable physical accomodation. The club would have to remove barriers to his access to the facility--but, as one arrogant type found out, you don't have to pave the wilderness for him (We had a guy try to sue a rendezvous group for holding their 1830 primitive camp in the forest with no wheelchair ramps, for crying out loud)

As some have found out, you have to be able to actually do the job as described before you are discriminated against.No law in the US requires that you give a rocket-scienc job to a IQ 60 individual, regardless of physical handicap. A Roofing job would require more than reasonable accomodation for a wheel chair bound individual to accomplish it. The list could go on forever--and probably does.
As far as being liable for someone else's actions because you said "you're good to go", that defies all reasonable bounds.
You can cringe in fear, succumb to blackmail (sorry-"threat of Leagal Action"), or you can do what is reasonable, and rear up on your hind legs and say "Enough!" when someone gets offended...
you go my 2 bits worth...
RW

edited to put "AS" as first word...

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Yeah, I don't really want to get involved in this thread, but thought it may be worth spouting in about the legal stuff (...he says as someone with zero legal knowledge). I agree that the AMA SHOULD provide legal council to the club.

bentgear

With all the hell that was raised the last time the dues were increased, what do you think would happen if the AMA got directly involved everytime something like this came up. Some will say that this does not happen often, but if you start, it will just cause more and more involvement. Its close enuff to the government now, we don't need to give them a reason to start writing 100's of new regulations per month because we need to be lead around on a leash.

Ed M.