lsnover

My Feedback: (19)

Guys:

Not sure if this is the right place to post, but I figure I would start here. Our club has been around for more than 15 years. We are in the middle of a corn field, and quite away from any homes. At least a good field length.

Anyway, we now have a neighbor within "earshot", who has decided he does not like the noise. Note that our club has been out to his home and metered, and the sound level is VERY subdued. I thinkNone the less, he has decided to make trouble with the township.

My question is, what is our defense? What is reasonable? Any ideas on how to deal with him (morally and legally please, no wise cracks). It will be a real shame if we loose the right to fly our planes or gas engines due to this single jerk.

Thanks for any and all advice.

Regards,
Lee Snover

Live Wire

Some of these guy's just don't have any thing to do . Invite him over and put him on the buddy box!!

iflyj3

My Feedback: (7)

Go to your township and find what the zoning rules are first. Know where you stand legally. In our county, in an ag zone, one can have friends over to fly but not an organized club. Even if there are zoning rules against it, you may be grandfathered due to the length of time you have been there. In Kentucky, a forbidded practice that has been practiced for 10 years without a formal complaint, achieves grandfatherhood.

Communication with the complaintant is the most important thing you can do. Ask him what his objection is and try to address it. It may be as simple as doesn't like early Sunday morning flights.

If the above fails, measure the sounds and compare them to tractors, lawn mowers etc.

If everything fails just have the owner talk about installing a feed lot for pigs (since you are in the middle of a corn field) with the barns real close to his house and the waste spread on the land close to him. I guarantee he will reconsider. Until the economy got bad I had two pig farms one mile from my house and when the wind was from the north it would curl the hairs in your nose.

Good luck.

lsnover

My Feedback: (19)

Well, it's an idea.

Thanks,
Lee Snover

lsnover

My Feedback: (19)

Pig farming, interesting....

Thanks for the input.

Lee Snover

Taildrager-inactive

My Feedback: (11)

Make sure your legal as to the sound comming from the field, then tell the guy to suck rope.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

Sounds like he is the new guy, right?

I could send one of the guys at my field with his big gassers up to your club to let your new neighbor know what some RC planes sound like.....

Kentucky? Maybe some of the flying gang from Ft. Campbell would like to do field training exercises for a while in your field. Nothing like thumping rotor blades over his house for a dose of reality....

Has he got a kid? Bribe the rugrat over and get him hooked on RC.....

abel_pranger

Lee-
Dan (iflyj3) is leading you straight. Besides zoning, see if you can dig up a noise ordinance. Many communities have adopted ordinances that filter down from International Standards Organization (ISO) recommendations re generally acceptable noise levels to the fed (ANSI recommendations), to state, and so on down to the local level. Typically, if you at or below 55 dBA averaged over an hour (averaging period also typical, but does vary and zoning is often a factor) at the receptor location during daylight hours, you're going to be OK with the law. So, put a number on 'very subdued' and judge how it compares to worldwide norms of 'acceptable to a person of normal sensitivity to environmental noise.' If your locality doesn't have objective levels specified in a noise abatement ordinance, your defense will probably best be to convince the magistrate what level has has been demonstrated to be tolerable to most reasonable people most of time, and that your operations do not produce sound emanations above those levels (which hopefully they don't). Compare where you stand to the nominal 55 dBA limit or whatever a local ordinance specifies (prolly within 5 dB of that level, if any is specified), and then come back here - these things can be worked.
I'm not aware of any body of knowledge that has been compiled regarding the sensitivity of people to pig farms in close proximity to their domiciles, however, I expect that prospect might well give your complainant pause to consider what would be the lesser of evils............

Abel

Roby

I don't want to sound negative on this but ,been there,done that !

Take a good look at all the responses and choose what seems to be the
correct path for you. Always keep in mind that for the most part, we in this
hobby are nothing more than land beggars looking for a place to play.

At the same time start looking for a new place to fly. Just because you have
been at a particular place for a number of years doesn't mean all that much
in most areas.

There was a flying field in my local area that had been in place for over 30 years.
One house went up and within a year the field was closed. Sometimes thats the way it is.

Fight it if you will but start looking around anyway.

Good luck
Roby

8178

My Feedback: (17)

We went though this with a guy near our field back in the 60s and 70s. It was an absolute horrible experience. One or more of our members crashed in the guy’s field and he confiscated the aircraft. We had to send a Sheriff to get the plane back. Because of the laws in our area he could not shut us down, but it got very nasty.

The sound of the R/C aircraft seemed to irritate him to an unbelievable level of extreme agitation. He would storm over to our field all red faced and totally ticked off and confront us. We never knew for sure when he would go into a rage.

Suggest you do some DB test with different size engines and find the quiet ones and just fly those aircraft for awhile. Start flying later in the AM and stop earlier in the PM. We found that the small sport engines made less noise, 40 size or below. Not sure how the test would come out now-a-days with the improved mufflers. We were never able to appease they guy and the problem did not go away until he died of a heart attack.

smokingcrater

if someone is having problems with the noise, they would probably complain about an unpowered glider! it isn't the noise, just a power struggle of someone doing something they don't like, so they want it shut down.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

rkramer,

Sad, but you are dead on about some people.



The absolute best thing you can do is document, document, document. Have someone at the club write about everything you do, such as the president asking members to be sensitive of the neighbor, good mufflers, maybe considering voluntary pattern modifications, etc. Document the owners attitude and comments along with yours when trying to mollify him. Things like that make an impressive case when you bring them all out at a city hearing, or to the sheriff. Keep it all in a file folder along with the club bylaws and land use agreements. Too many times has a weak case won due to good documentation, and yours isn't weak. Mostly, it appears that you will be documenting your good intentions and his irrational actions.

BillHarris

It's the haves _vs_ the have-nots.

As noted, check the zoning and regs, maesuer the sound level. If all is OK, reason with him. Of he can't be reasoned with, do the pig farm and/or arrange a visit from KneeCap Charlie.

My old R/C club in B'ham bought 33 acres in the middle of a a square mile of unreclaimed strip mine and flew happily til some trailer trash moved in on borrowed land next door and te griping and complaining started. We go the land zone "recreational" just for protection, but we/they still have to be careful. Lost a LOT of revenue because they couldn't hold fly-ins and contests any more.

--Bill

J_R

Isnover

Abel Pranger is THE expert on sound with reference to models and clubs. The only thing I can add to his comments is, after getting the information together, contact the AMA for Flying Site Assistance for their input. That is exactly what they get paid for.

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

We sure are rightous about protecting our flying sites as if this was some inalienable right. What do we have invested in our hobby compared to what that guy has invested in his new home? As much as loosing a field would suck imagine having some low level droning sounds while you are trying to relax in your new home out in the country on a Saturday afternoon. There was a kids party at one of my neighbors yesterday and they were playing loudly with one little girl shreiking for about two hours and it started to get to me. The sound surely was not going to effect my hearing but it was pretty annoying after awhile. Now if I new that was going to happen on a regular basis I would surely try and do something about it. I'd start looking for a new field because when it comes to homowners versus flying fields the homeowners usually win. I would also try and work with the homeowner but chances are that ship has sailed. If you are the club member to deal with him I'd also change your attitude since right after your admonishment to us not to crack wise you called the guy a "jerk".

iflyj3

My Feedback: (7)

Boy, are you off your meds? You sound like a friend of his flying field neighbor!

J_R

It seems to me BB has a point. BB may be willing to throw in the towel a little to0 soon, but, if you do not try to understand the position of the homeowner, your going to lose the battle. What if the sound is at 80 db at his property line, instead of 55 db? There may be adjustments that have to be made to bring the noise level to an accptable level, e.g. not flying as near, or enforcing some db limit on the aircraft being flown.

If you don't understand both sides of any argument you are in, you are destined to fail.

8178

My Feedback: (17)

I think the lower DB of the smaller engines would help but I do not think it is the DB level alone that causes the problem. The agitation seems come from the relentless type of buzzing sound made by the R/C engines that sets these people on fire. Because of this the DB level at the guy’s house must be far lower than say the sound of a loud car driving by the house.

I’d try working with the guy and tell them that you have done DB test and you are going to start only flying R/C aircraft that fit a certain low DB level and see what happens. It’s worth flying smaller stuff for awhile if it saves the site. I’m assuming that the smaller engines will be quieter from the test we did many years ago but your results may vary. I’m sure most everyone in your club has a least one 40 size (or smaller) aircraft laying around that they could fly.

The big question is, has anyone ever cashed close to his house????

rw Guinn

To make your case, I would obtain a recording sound meter. Plant it near his house, and record a typical day-when you DO NOT FLY. It might take several days.
Then, record a day when you DO FLY.
I'd lay odds there is little to no change in sound levels.
We had one complaint at our field in Roswell. Somebody going to Church saw us flying. She got hacked off because we were NOT in church, and complained that the noise bothered her. The Minister didn't hear a thing, nor did anyone else. Case dismissed.
Lawn mowers, leaf blowers, and the other tools people use are considerably louder than model aircraft engines, but don't bring out the animosity. Some folks just can't stand to see people have fun.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

I kinda look at it from the point of who was there first. The club was there and it is a bit selfish to move into a place and want to rob an entire club of their enjoyment. We had that happen to a real military airfield. A famous outdoorsman magazine writer moved in and wanted the field shut down for his happiness. It isn't like the jerk didn't know we were there when he bought the house. No surprises about that. He annoyed us with angry letters, etc until we did close down the side nearest him. It made the busy little field more dangerous for us. He thought he had won. When they started using the field for night ops he would somehow get buzzed around midnight, low level at times, maybe ruffling a few shingles. We were blacked out and couldn't be identified. He paid a little for his victory as we didn't forget, and gave him little reminders like that from time to time. I guess he gave up his letter writing campaign in the end. I had no pity for the arrogant b@star#.

abel_pranger

Roger-
You made several excellent points, and I'd like to expand on them a little:

1) Recording sound meter - absolutely, it's a must if you are going to obtain sound level measurements averaged over an hour (or some other specified period) as objective levels are usually specified in ordinances. Instantaneous level measurements don't really relect how much the sound bugs people. The annoyance caused has been shown to be an integral product of level and persistance, and the ordinances based on recommendations by the standards organizations reflect that. They are expensive instruments, but can be rented by the day/week for a reasonable cost.

2) Ambient Levels - Yes, this is important. If your activity doesn't significantly raise the noise level above ambient, that's certainly favorable to your case. Again, well drafted noise ordinances recognize this. Allowable levels may be as high as 65-70 dBA average at the receptor location in a commercial/industrial zone, while they tend to be lowest (near the 55 dBA benchmark I cited) in areas where quiet is considered an important element of environmental quality (rural residential areas, for example).

3) Noise level isn't the real issue - Sure, it happens. In the instance Roger cited the woman had no means to get control over the heathens that were flying on the Sabbath by enforcement of her moral standards, so she made it an issue for secular authorities to deal with. I think it is very common for such situations to occur. How much anyone will tolerate re some infringement on his enjoyment of his home environment by a neighbor is very much dependent on what he thinks of the neighbor in general. If he a good guy, you'll likely keep your annoyance to yourself while he cuts firewood with his dilapidated chainsaw sans muffler. If he's a bummer, call the cops. I know of a club that operates in the next county north that is solidly amidst houses on all sides in a semi-rural neighborhood that line the runway as they often line golf course fairways. I was amazed to see guys flying quarter scale gassers there, up to and including G62 powered AT-6 racers. It turns out that the owner of the property where the model field is located regularly grades all the dirt streets and driveways as a community service to his neighbors. Nobody is moved to complain about what he and his buddies do in their leisure time.

Abel

lsnover

My Feedback: (19)

First off, this particular fellow is at least two fields away from where we fly. The decibels are very low. We have not taken "recording" meseurements as of yet, but may down the road.

We've done some more research and found out the guy has been making trouble for his neighbors as well. This guy should definately have known this field was there when he purchased the house. The other neighbors have been there for years, and we've never had one complaint. This fellow is just a trouble maker, pure and simple.

We are taking some measures to avoid flying in that part of the field for now and collecting info. in hopes the problem will go away. I doubt it, but hope springs eternal.

Regards,
Lee

rw Guinn

Even with a "Troublemaker", you need to be prepared. Do your homework, get the evidence on your side, make sure you have the truth with you.
If he complains too loudly, you will lose, regardless. The county/city/state government involved, or the landowner will cave in.
Most settlements in lawsuits are made because it is cheaper to pay off than win. Lawyers at $100/hour and up (50 hour minimum, paid in advance, thank you) make defending in court a very expensive proposition. Environmentalists and other groups know this, as does every local, regional, and even Federal agency. It's called Legal Blackmail.

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

I'm glad to know an opposing view point means I must have a mental problem requiring medication.

With the information from the original post I think my comments are well founded. Now the story is changing a bit and the homeowner is much worse than originally depicted.

sideshow

My Feedback: (11)

We did a little noise testing at our club because a coupla members got turbines. The noise level at the closest houses (1/2 mile) were not measurable on a sound meter. It wasn't a scientific caliber meter but it was a few hundred bucks. Interestingly, the smaller the engine and higher pitched the sound, the more obtrusive it was. The turbine sound, which is very loud standing next to it on the ground, all but disappeared in a "whooshing" sound while airborne.

I get the whole "we were here first" argument....but it doesn't work. As an example.....we had a new housing development go up in a neighboring town. The development was about a mile from the local Sheriff's firearm's range, which has been there for 40 years. It was open 24 hours a day. A resident from the new development spearheaded a movement to get the range shut down because of the noise. She was quoted in the paper as saying "What do I tell my daughter is going on over there. I don't want to scare her by telling her that guns are being used there." The Sheriff's department agreed to limit the range's hours to weekdays from 9 to 5...which I think is a huge concession. Not good enough for her.....she continues her fight. Keep in mind that when she moved in she had to sign a disclosure form saying that she knew the range was there and that it operated 24 hours a day. She was still able to make a case about the Sheriff's range.

I'm not saying that you're sunk....but I would take any complaint from a local resident seriously....because

Facts don't matter....only perception.

I hope that's clear enough. Do everything you can to placate him. Hopefully you can co-exist peacefully.