RCJake-rcu

My Feedback: (7)

Suppose a member of an AMA Charter continually breaks club safety rules while other members of the club , BODs and officers know this and nothing is done to stop his actions. What if he has an accident which injures another person? (God forbid!) Could the club members, BODs and officers be held liable? Just wondering...

Hal deBolt

Hi Rcjake,
You have an excellent question for Mr. Brown, he apparently likes those types.
Offhand? As far as it appears there is no regulations or such which makes any AMA member or
official responsible for any other members actions.
However we have organized clubs with by laws. With most I would believe there is a regulation
saying if the majority members find a member out of line in some manner he can lose his
membership.
Would believe it is the responsability of club offcials to bring problems before the membership.
Bottom line> officials are not cops with their responsabiliy but they are responsible for the
well being of the club and its members.
OK?

Hal deBolt

excaliber

Well said Hal. RCJake, is the club incorporated if not it should be. that being said a slick attorney would probably go after the club and its officers for neglignece. I'm no attorney,
Here is what was done at one of the clubs I belong to that had a similiar situation. In our case the individual was contacted by an officer, one on one and suggested he try to refrain from flying over the pits. He continued, the individual was again contacted and was now told that if the practice continued that he could be grounded for 30 days or worse. Didn't matter, it continued. Finally at a general club meeting with a full quorum. The question was raised what to do regarding this particular member (he was present). After much discussion and a study of the bylaws. A motion was made, supported and voted on to suspend his membership and return his initiation fee and dues and ask him to seek out another club. His suspension was based on complete disregard for the field rules and AMA safety code and reckless endangerment. He threatened to sue. And 5 years later it hasn't happened.

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Hal,
After having served as a club officer for almost 10 years, I have a slight quibble with your comment about club officer’s responsibilities.

You are correct, the club did NOT appoint or elect me policeman and I REFUSE to be one. This is a hobby, and I participate. That being said, I throw back all complaints about the flying habits of mrX to the complainant and suggest he and I go talk to mrX since many complaints are based on poor education. If the complainer is unwilling to go with me to speak to the member, there is NO official or formal complaint.

Club safety is not the sole responsibility of the officers, but is the task of each and every single flyer in the club. He who ignores the unsafe acts of others will be offended when we call him on his own dangerous activities. That rapidly becomes a club I would rather not be a member of, much less an officer in.

If the complainer goes with me, I insure the explicit rule is explained and suggestions of ways to avoid breaking it are presented. We have a flying site where there are some definite limits on overfly and it does take some special knowledge to avoid them.

I have an individual that I HEARD was a hard case about breaking the over fly rule and was always doing it even after several claim to have spoken to him. However, one day at the field a complaint was lodged but the complainer refused to go with me to discuss the subject since *I* did not see the 'infraction'. Since I understand that where there is smoke there is probably fire, I visited with the actor and spoke of the many complaints I had herd and then spent some time educating him as I mentioned earlier. He has not broken that rule since.

There are procedures in place to place recalcitrant flyers on notice that official departure from the club membership rolls may be taken if multiple complaints are lodged and followed up with 'correctional' visits.

However, it should NOT take a club officer to tell mrX he is flying in an unsafe manner. Three club members should be able to do it just as well in large clubs.

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

Jim,
You have an excellent grasp of real world human behavior and how to avoid putting yourself in a no win situation with this subject. I have seen the exact situation many times at our public field where people are very quick to talk behind someones back and hesitant to just go ask whats going on and see if education will correct an unwanted behavior.

I think a lawyer (slick or otherwise) could easily argue that a club officer and therefore the club was neglegent in not speaking up when an injury may have been avoided by enforcing stated rules of the club. With witnesses saying they were aware of a situation and that they notified the club officers it becomes their responsibilty to do something (in the connext of a legal arguement). I'm not saying the lawsuit could be won or not or that even a lawyer would take the case on a contingency bases but that anyone can be sued for anything and given enough resources a disgruntled member could bring action against a club or an injured person or their family could do the same. In the end the laywer will go after the money and in the case of an actual injury that will be the insurance, AMA or otherwise.

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

BB,
You are almost right, and that is dangerous. Mike in DC clearly indicated that ANY lawyer can sue anyone and win. That means all one has to do is get up in the morning and be at risk of a lawsuit. If we all follow that approach to things, everyone I know is going to need a very large jar of Vaseline.

Your comments need to be cast in the light of the AMA REQUIREMENTS for a set of club by-laws and the reasoning behind that, which happens to be due process. If a club officer always goes over to talk to any flyer about breaking the rules whenever any person makes an unsubstantiated report, the defined action would be outside the due process chain of events.

It is a standard of American law that the culprit knows who the accuser is. To ignore this long standing approach to activities leads to people being guilty until proven innocent. That simply ain't going to work.

To illustrate the seriousness of the point even more completely, I will share an incident that happened in my club in the late spring. We had a pilot (no name is officially known) who offended a neighbor with his clearly unsafe conduct and bad attitude. The neighbor complained to our land lord. We have lost that field, but probably not because of the complaint.

However the incident drove the creation of a new rule handling complaints in a more serious fashion that just three members grounding the culprit that day and talking about it at the club meeting. That new rule was discussed but not adopted (as per out by laws) until the second meeting. At the EC meeting prior to the second meeting a complaint was filed, as per the proposed rule. The complaint was rejected because the rule was NOT in effect. Later investigation revealed that the person who related the actions to the guy who filed the complaint (and was not at the field when the alleged incident happened) did not even KNOW the individual he complained about. Worse, the individual complained about was not even at the field that day. I suggest that YOUR approach (talking to all about all complaints) could have led to a lawsuit with no effective defense because hearsay drove the actions.

BB, there really are some very serious dragons out there and I think you need to carefully review your position on this subject. Taking the reasonable and prudent approach is defensible and REQUIRED in some cases.

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

Jim,
I guess I wasn't clear enough. I agree with you and was saying that it could be argued in court one way or another. Either the board member says something to soon or not at all, in either case it could be trouble.

As for your discussion of due process, it is my understanding that this would all be a civil matter and all the importance of due process would apply more to a criminal action. Maybe one of the lawyers here could (and will) correct me if I am wrong.

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

While due process IS normally used in criminal cases, it STILL figures in civil cases. Failure to use due process by some AMA Chartered Club Executive Committe has figured in at least one multi hundred thousand dollar loss. That is why the AMA now requires all clubs to have a set of by laws that include that.

J_R

Jim

Don't bother. BB has shown a recent distaste for rules, regulations and laws. He probably does not care about his, or our right to the Constitutional guarantee of due process in the 5th and 14th Amendments.

abel_pranger

Man, that's a broad brush you're painting with. I have a distaste for rules, regulations, and laws, and I think that anyone that believes in individual rights and freedoms should be adamant that they be enacted reluctantly and only as a last resort, when it is clear that reliance on individual responsibility and exercise of judgment has failed to such an extent that there is no other possible recourse. There would far less concern for guarantees of due process under the Constitution if the more fundamental parts of it were given the respect they are due. Okay I admit I'm biased, I'm not a law 'n order type of person, but rather place far greater value on freedom and justice. The law as it has evolved in our society no longer has much to do with justice, and order is the antithesis of freedom. Laws, rules, regulations are made necessary by those that cannot or will not think for themselves. Order is a state that makes it possible for governing powers to control people.
You've just pissed off a libertarian, bud - I hope you're not running for elected office[>:][>:]

Abel

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Probably the truest dissertation I have ever read on RCU. More power to ya Abel. BTW If you run for any office I’d sure vote for you.

J_R

ROFLMAO

Able, you, like me, understand that if you are going to play the game to win, you had best understand the rules. It's not necessary to like the rules, but it is necessary to understand them. Hmm. Isn't pissing off a libertarian an oxymoron? Hmmm. In thinking about it, perhaps being pissed off is the defintion of a libertarian.

I guess, on the other hand, if you were to tell me that you do not understand the concept of due process, I would have to re-evaluate my thinking.

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

Where did this come from? I'm not big on lots of rules at the field or over regulation and I suppose some laws are needed but where did I demonstrate a "distaste"? I'm just glad you didn't quote the amendments in your post.

J_R

BB

Most people are not going to look up rules, etc for themselves. Sometimes links, such as those to government sites to not allow for direct access. Rather than sit and debate what a rule, etc. says, I post them and will continue to do so. It's probably not much more annoying than your habit of providing a quote with most of your posts. If you don't want to read the rule, etc. don't.

As far as due process being only related to criminal matters, that is far from the case. If it were not for due process, for instance, a lender or landlord could take your property if the post office delayed payment and received it a day late. You are entitled to a process that gives you recourse. Without the requirement for due process, someone could claim you are a nut case, haul you off, and keep you in an institution against your will for the rest of your life. It is one of the most basic rights that we have, considerably older that the constitution and based in common law.

In the case we are talking about here, if you are a member of a club, your membership can not be infringed on without due process. To do so opens the club up to a civil suit by the individual whose rights were infringed. To meet the requirements of due process, each member of a club has to be made aware of his responsibilities in a formal document (the club by-laws), acknowledge his receipt of the information, and agree to the terms of it, along with the penalties for violation of the terms of the agreement contained in the document. Arbitrary action by the club is a violation of due process and is actionable.

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

OK JR, I stand corrected.

abel_pranger

JR-

True enough - you have to understand the rules to work around them.
Libertarians get pissed off, but it's transient. We get over that state of mind by passing it back to those that aroused it. Quotes bugging you, Bunky?

"Good men must not obey the laws to well" - Emerson

Abel