Hossfly

This character is not going away. It is here to stay for at least a while . In my opinion with some 50+ years in AMA and active, off and on, in the politics for at least 40 of those years I predict that if no correction takes place within the very near future a number of Charter Clubs will soon simply be Clubs. The loss of collective club power will not help any of us when AMA has to speak with government for our benefit.
Therefore I sent this letter to various EC persons both by email and snail mail and several more will receive the snail mail.

>>>>>>>

TO: Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA)
5161 East Memorial Dr.
Muncie, IN 47302

FROM: Horrace Cain, AMA 539, Leader
31619 Bohlssen Rd.
New Caney, TX 77357

DATE: September 22, 2004

SUBJECT: Request for Reconsideration of mandated Safety Officer and AMA Document 537 at Oct./ 04
EC meeting

ATTENTION: AMA Executive Director and Executive Council.

To All Concerned:

As you are well aware, the mandated Safety Officer for AMA Charter Clubs, along with the infamous Document 537, has created considerable concern among clubs and club members, especially for those that keep informed concerning the business of the AMA. The major concern gathers around the strict requirements of Document 537 with its mysterious origin and undetermined reasoning for being retained.

To investigate please follow this review of the associated portions of the subject items.

1.The Motion (EC Minutes 02/7-8/04): MOTION VI: “It was moved and seconded that effective with the 2005 Charter
Club Renewals, all clubs are required to name a Safety Officer. This officer must have access to email.�

2. Explanation as posted on the AMA Web site:
"Safety Officer/Coordinator
(Added 9/10/04)

We have been receiving a lot of information regarding a document listed on the web site, PDF Document
#537. Please understand that this document was created in 2001; it only suggested guidelines or
responsibilities that a safety officer could use. The Executive Council did not make a motion to approve
this document; it only stated that each club for 2005 will be required to have a safety officer/coordinator.
If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Joyce Hager, Executive Director"

3. In the October, 2004 issue of Model Aviation, page 192, the Executive Director states:
“Attention Chartered Clubs: In 2005 chartered clubs will be required to designate someone in the club to take the
position of safety coordinator. //SNIP//
If you check out the AMA web site //snip// document 537 provides a guideline for the duties of a club safety officer
and …..//snip//�

4.Earlier in the year Document 537 was dated 03/31/04 krh. D-537 was prefaced with:
“This should be an appointed position, within a club. The appointment should be made by the club’s elected officers.
The person chosen needs to be mature, knowledgeable, and able to express himself/herself
before an audience as well as on a one-to-one basis.
Duties Include: ……….�

Notice that there is no mention of “guidelines� in this document and the date is much later than the original date as stated by the Executive Director. In addition the 03/31/04 document 537 never used any term such as coordinator (1 : to put in the same order or rank 2 : to bring into a common action, movement, or condition ) The motion and the document only stated Officer: (one who holds an office of trust, authority, or command)




Page 2 of 2

Document 537 as now contained in the AMA files has been revised – dated 040913 ism – and does contain the term “coordinator�. However the revision states that the EC motion contained a requirement for a Safety Officer/ Coordinator when in fact the motion only stated OFFICER.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This document includes recommendations that a Safety Office/Coordinator may be involved in.
Each club will be responsible for the actually job description for their own club. This document
was not passed by the Executive Council, therefore it can not be rescinded at this time. The
only motion from the Executive Council is the fact that a Safety Office/Coordinator is necessary
to charter your club in 2005.
Club Safety Officer
This should be an appointed position, within a club. The appointment should be made by the
club’s elected officers. The person chosen needs to be mature, knowledgeable, and able to
express himself/herself before an audience as well as on a one-to-one basis.
Duties include: //SNIP//
<<<<<<<<<<<<

Further examination of the REVISION evidences suspect reasoning with such statement:
“This document was not passed by the Executive Council, therefore it can not be rescinded at this time.�

The problems so readily apparent here are:
1.The Executive Director uses terms of significantly different meanings in describing the position required by Executive Council Vote.
2.The document 537 was removed and quickly revised when questions arose from the membership.
3.If the EC never approved this document, and the document can be removed, revised, and reinstated upon short notice, then the document should be able to be rescinded without any significant effort.
4.The document 537 now existing within the AMA could cause extreme hardship liabilities to be levied on both the Safety officer and the Chartered Club, which would also be levied on AMA assets, even if Class Action should become a resort.

In discussions with a number of club members I feel that this requirement for a Club Safety Officer, especially when connected to the infamous and unworkable Document 537, will create extreme anxieties within the club’s membership which will result in loss of both Charter status of clubs and a number of AMA members which result from their clubs maintaining the Charters.

Therefore I request the Executive Council please reconsider the Safety Officer requirement or at least remove Document 537 from the files. In addition, I strongly suggest that all terms used to describe the position be used exactly as the terms used within the EC motion.

Thank You for your consideration.
Sincerely,



Horrace D. Cain
AMA Leader #539
<<<<<<<<

So far I have received one response which, while containing a fair amount of the usual soft-shoe dance-around routine also stated:
>>>>>>>
"BOTH the form 537, and, the motion need some work, and I would expect that to happen as a result of the next EC meeting. If I was to bet on a result, I'd say it's likely that the "official" term for the person required will be changed to "Coordinator", and the 537 will be "Softened" a bunch, to make it more descriptive of a facilitator/communicator, rather than an enforcer. I would, also, bet that it becomes "guidelines" rather than "rules", and, MAY, become a document that requires EC approval, rather than one which can be changed at the whim of an employee."
<<<<<<<<<<
Now for all you troops out there in La-La land, may I suggest that you really bear down on your DVP and let them know that real changes would be the elimination of Document 537, as in liability suites, "guidelines' can easily be twisted into rules where failure to heed the guidelines can also be easily construed to be failure to properly take preventive action.

Please at least send a short note that you desire a change.

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

A. It's not an official document: This document was not passed by the Executive Council, therefore it can not be rescinded at this time. You can't recind that which has not been "cinded" in the first place.
B. It's not required, it's SUGGESTED. Note obvious and strategic use of the word "should." If it were "must," I'd tend to agree with your assessment.

The document has all the teeth of a Ziploc bag of pudding.

rw Guinn

A. It's in the AMA Documents section of the Official AMA Website. It has an Official AMA Document Number. If it has feathers, prefers water to land, waddles and quacks, I say the likelyhood is it's a duck.
B. " If you check out the AMA web site //snip// document 537 provides a guideline for the duties of a club safety officer" which "effective with the 2005 Charter
Club Renewals, all clubs are required to name a Safety Officer". From the AMA Officials of various stripe.
Quack, quack.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Guys

I think much ado and contention is due to the interpretation of the word 'guideline'. It seems some believe that its meaning is synonymous to mandatory and others realize it is merely a recommendation or strong suggestion. I subscribe to the latter interpretation and therefore the pudding in the bag thingy fits just right. Well…. Anyway that is the intent of the meaning of ‘guidelines’ in my neck of the woods.

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

I tend to agree with you.

However I also hire barracuda - I mean lawyers who would take the same tack Horrible took. Guidelines are almost always twisted into rules, especially when something goes wrong and you were not following them. Look at the recent requirements in lawn mowers. Rather than the old placard telling you not to put hands and feet under the running mower, they now have a safety mechanism that will shut the engine off if both hands leave the handles. That was because the guidelines established by the placard were not strong enough and did not provide adequate preventative action, as was established in court.

This 537 thing quacks and AMA Chartered Club officers need some effective relief.

rw Guinn

I replied thusly to Dr. Frank on the Dist-8 mail list--both to him and to the list:

The confusion arises from the AMA Website and ED, along with Document 537, which is not official, appears on the Official Documents list, and which cannot be rescinded or removed from the website because the EC must do so, although it (the EC) has never approved said document...
and you wonder at our silliness?

Roger
He wrote the following: any bets the dist-vIII mode return my response with a nasty remark about personal attacks?

Hossfly

Yep, Zeb, reckon yer may be on ta somethin' thar. Why Shucks, man can never design a flyin' machine, the Titanic is unsinkable, It's a good thing tham army fellows court-martialed that Billy Mitchell guy 'cuz he must a' been crazy to demonstrate that a bomber can sink a battleship, then in 1924 he even predicted that the US would have a war with Japan starting with a carrier based attack on Pearl Harbor. Shucks whoever heard of such a crazy thing!![:@] Heck, them computer things, why "...40MB should be enough for anybody."

Oh well, we could fill this site's computers with bad calls from individuals an/or groups with NO FORESIGHT and even those that do have some vision.
Thanks for evidencing that there are still some in this RC/AMA society that are woefully short of understanding this country's tort system.
Definitely I would love to be wrong, yet I foresee a strong chance of -- if not stopped/corrected -- AMA's placing Clubs in a serious position that will breed in-fighting and sour feelings among individuals within clubs. Model Aviation Clubs exist because of a common bond and generally the need for obtaining/maintaining flying sites, promoting the sport/hobby/recreation of the modeling activities. Running a club is a big chore. AMA needs to assist with that chore, not levy more and more bureaucratic bungling on the clubs.
To sit on my butt and scoff off something potentially very detrimental to an activity, that I have been strongly involved in for some 60+ of my 68 years, just isn't gonna' happen.

Of course your own care for the activity is yours. Everyone is different and has his/her own concerns. At least our lines are drawn in the sand.

rw Guinn

well, I got my reply:
I worte in response:

excuse me. I was polite in my response. I do not deserve that diatribe, especially since what i wrote are directly from members of the Executive Committee and the Executive director.
I deserve an apology from you, Dr. Frank.
In fact, I demand one!

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Roger,
I thought it was interesting that he took that rant public on the District VIII list, and that the moderators allowed him to take actions denied the hoi poli (sp?). Please don't go on a diet waiting for the apology as Dr. H. Sanford Frank is not well known for backing down, even when he is wrong.

I am beginning to wonder if someone, who shall remain nameless - you are smart enough to guess, put that document up and then pulled it down when one of the new candidates made some noise about being forked by the implications of the document coupled with the EC minutes. Then it was put back in a manner that raises more questions than provides answers.

I would think, based on the tale Frank related having heard, that the EC would have been much more careful with this subject. Unless Horrible is right and there is an intent on the minds of a few to control the clubs almost directly. SF's rantings are beginning to make me wonder, again.

J_R

Hi Roger

I am also a subscriber to the D VIII list. I have to wonder if you mistook what Dr. Frank had to say in his initial post about the silliness. The following is a copy of a post he made on the D VIII list on 2/14/04. It was followed by a lengthy discussion on the D VIII list about this post, including safety inspections. Are you sure he was not pointing at his own list? I could be mistaken, of course. His was the first post on this topic that I saw anywhere on the net. Of course, the following month document 537 made it’s appearance on the AMA site, while the safety discussions were still taking place on the D VIII site, long before I saw 537 mentioned anywhere else. If he is, indeed, pointing to another internet source, it may well be a case of pointing one finger at someone, while three are pointed directly back at oneself. Since it was his members, in his district, asking him about the information, it may be the case that he was referring to the D VIII list itself.

The text of that post follows:

-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. Sandy Frank [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 7:48 AM
To: AMA D-8 Modeling List
Subject: [D8-L] Seeking input !!



The following is an EARLY DRAFT of a new AMA Safety and Accident
Prevention Program...

It is in the early planning stage...

I am seeking YOUR input and feedback about it!!!

It may well be considered at the AMA April EC meeting...

Please respond very soon concerning this new program..

Please respond directly and personally to:

[email protected]


================================================== ================
AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program

Develop and Implementation

Key Elements and Considerations

Overview
The following are suggestions for developing and implementing a
comprehensive safety and accident prevention program for AMA clubs and
individual AMA members. The concept is one of "risk management", that is
to implement strategies to reduce the risk of accidents resulting in
injury or damage. While the easiest way to avoid the risk is to cease
the activity, that alternative is obviously unacceptable, with perhaps a
few exceptions where the activity is so dangerous as to expect serious
injury. Those situations are the subject of the 2004 AMA National Model
Aircraft Safety Code, where restrictions on weight, speed and power are
limited, and extensive safety measures are mandated.

However, the safety code is an honorary system that relies on individual
members to comply, and, even though detailed, subject to broad
interpretation by members and clubs.

The suggested Safety Awareness Program suggested by Bill Oberdieck could
be considered the AMA National Safety Program previously discussed and
mandated by the EC.

To be successful, the program must be communicated to and involve clubs
and individual members throughout the organization. AMA HQ must be a
resource, providing information, training to those in the field where
actual implementation takes place.

Some suggestions:
1) AMA should consider employing a full time safety coordinator.
The coordinator will not be a "safety czar" with broad powers,
but an educator and resource for information and training.

2) The program should be based on recognition of safe practices and
corresponding results. Clubs should be given information, and criteria
set for implementation of safe practices and member training. The
program may have predetermined levels of safety implementation that will
accord the club recognition from AMA that is visible to their peers,
thus creating a sense of pride. While financial incentives may be a part
of the recognition, these incentives should not be relied on to motivate
the encouraged behavior. Peer recognition and its competitive
environment is a much more effective way to achieve acceptance and
establish an ever increasing threshold of safety performance.

3) Train the trainer. The program should include an ambitious training
program for selected individuals who then become trainers in the field.
The organization is too large to conduct safety training at each club,
but through proper training, utilizing district VPs, AVPs and perhaps
other leader members, the program can and should reach all levels of the
organization.

4) Forum. There must be an acceptable forum for the training. The idea
of a "club convention" was suggested, with AMA supplementing the cost to
bring selected club representative to Muncie, initially this could be
the AMA Clubs with leader member status. An alternative may be to hold
regional meetings for training, perhaps four or five in different areas
of the US depending on club/member geographical concentration.

5) The safety program should contain some or all of these elements:
a. Pilot training and certification. We realize AMA believes AMA
cannot possibly properly administer a pilot certification program.
b. The development of any safety program should include input from
and participation of various AMA members, including some of limited
experience who can guide us in developing training for new pilots. This
involvement should be early in the development process and continue
through implementation.
c. Safety awareness must be a consistent part of the program. That
may include a safety column in Model Aviation, posters for club houses,
videos, and consistent emphasis and discussion by the president and all
VPs and AVPs. The safety program should be a standing agenda item for
all meetings, from club level up.
d. Consider presentations that are interesting, to the point of
entertaining, that focus on safety. These might include videos and still
photo slide shows that show actual or staged safety violations to
clearly demonstrate the right and wrong way to fly. The presentation
might include demonstrations, such as using a foam "arm" encased is a
sleeve that "accidentally" comes in contact with a spinning prop, with
disastrous results. Photos of, amputated fingers, mangled hands and
other various permanent injury results (from volunteers for the photos)
would make an interesting presentation. Maybe even video testimony from
an injured member on what not to do. Premises exposures at flying sites
or events sites could be identified along with safety checklists for
site operations. Proper fire fighting techniques, including use of water
back packs and similar, may be very effective. Live demos are most
effective, but videotaped demos are nearly as good.
e. Accident investigation. Accidents should be investigated by club
safety officers to determine "root cause". The question of "why did this
accident happen" should be asked in succession until root cause is
discovered. Example: "Lost control at takeoff' Why?
Mechanical/electrical failure? (equipment check failure/training issue
or carelessness) Frequency interference? (Pin system in use? Why didn't
it work? Carelessness or intentional disregard?) Pilot inexperience?
(Training issue? Lack of instructor? Lack of supervision) Once root
cause is discovered, steps can be taken to prevent recurrence. And the
incident can be shared (anonymously) with others to help them learn.


Development and Implementation Team
AMA must designate specific individuals to the team. It should include
AMA staff (possibly a new designated National Safety Coordinator) along
with elected officers, and club officers. A team leader with overall
responsibility and accountability for the project must be part of
project start-up. We suggest the initial team be limited to six and not
more than eight members to facilitate ease in getting a quorum and limit
discussion. Then additional team members are added at various stages and
locations. Initial organizational meetlngs may be in Muncie, then at
selected locations as needed to be sure that a good cross section of the
organization is represented.

Budget
Once strategy and activity to accomplish that strategy is agreed, we can
recommend a realistic budget to develop and implement the program. This
safety program is needed both clubs and members.

Claims experience has been remarkably good the past two years (2002 and
2003 YTD policy years ). Perhaps unused dollars budgeted for claim
payments can be a source of funding, although we caution that both late
reported claims and/or a catastrophic claim(s), which we know can occur
at any time without warning, can suddenly make a favorable claim
experience turn to disastrous.

Timing
The sooner the better. It will take considerable time to organize,
develop and implement this program, probably at least a year to
completion, although some of it may be phased in over that period. We
recommend team selection and an initial organizational meeting no later
than April 1, 2004, followed by a focused effort closely coordinated by
the team leader to assure management and progress.

================================================== =======================

The newly appointed AMA District VIII
Safety Coordinator
is:

Mr.Don Nix
(ADDRESS and PHONE NUMBERS EDITED OUT BY JR)

Best regards.

Dr. Sandy Frank

[email protected]
2004-02-14

J_R

Roger

I made an assumption in the previous post that he was in his district and his members were asking. That, of course, could be in error.

rw Guinn

so was I. That post was from 6 months ago, and this stuff is recent. He is ALWAYS out showing off his shirt, somewhere in Dist. VII.
BTW--the insults are a 1 way street. HE can do it with impunity
from dist VII:

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Ok, now you have my attention and interest.

Exactly WHERE was he when this reported action happened:


Hello, d8,


This weekend I did attend several
modeling events within the district...

I was confronted by several members at different events..

with the outlandish internet tale that has been concocted and spread

that:

in 2005 the AMA will require that each and every model flown by ANY member
anywhere will have to be inspected and approved by someone ????

(the tales vary as to WHO?)

THIS sillyness is JUST NOT THE CASE....

there is NO BASIS in FACT here...

were I not being asked by reliable members...

I would have considered this as just the BS which it is....

anyone spreading such is NOT informed at all !!!

Best regards.
Sandy Frank

2004-09-25

You might notice that he carefully does not identify these "reliable members", so it is possible they could be in District VII rather than the smart ones here in District VIII. However, he also said "last week I did attend several events and all were smaller...", but again the locations were not identified.

Since he seems to have started this mess, one wonders what he expects to gain from the ruckus it is causing clubs and the EC.

rw Guinn

My error--one too few I's on VIII. So sorry for the error. I am a bad boy...As Dr. Frank and his cronies will tell you anytime you ask

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Welcome to the crowd. It never ceases to amaze me how many people I hear that or similar comments from.

Now the question has become exactly what did SF intend with 537? <VBG>

rw Guinn

Guess it gives the Elite something to prove that the "Hoi Poi" or rabble obviously don't have a clue...

JimRoss

I have been involved with this matter for a couple of months now and have written to several AMA EC members about it. Without exception, each and every one has told me that this document (#537) is merely a guideline and not meant as mandatory.
This proves beyond a doubt that we are having the wool pulled over our eyes all the while the pullers are hoping we won't notice.

Document 537 is an official AMA document solely because it is listed as such among many other documents contained in the same area, many of which have to do with safety. By association this document may well, and probably will be, construed as official AMA policy, if and when the need ever arises for a situation to go to court where the lawyers argue its' merits. Herein lies the problem, the spoken word carries NO WEIGHT in testimony, only what is written and accepted as official by the organization. Make no mistake, this is an official AMA document and can and will be used to prove a case of negligence on the part of a member or safety officer of some club.

How did this document get put into the document area if it has never been passed on by the EC? Did someone just post it there for fun or was it someones idea of how to slip in requirements without official permission. This document was quickly remover and revised and reposted for the effect of softening the meaning. By itself, that proves the document can be removed without EC action, and should be done away with as it holds no merit in the case of safety officer.

I have compiled a list of documents from my club, other clubs, and the AMA "Official" documents concerning safety to try to come up with a reasonable list of duties for the safety officer we are having forced upon us as a club. There is nothing in document 537 that is original with the exception of the inspections required. Everything written in the document is already contained in the AMA Safety Code, our club Safety Code, our Club Charter, and our Field Rules.

With this in mind why is it necessary for the AMA to come up with another document that only confuses the issue further and tries to put responsibility on the shoulders of one or two people in each club?

Fellow AMA members, be very watchful as to what happens in the near future with this document or we will have to live with it and the possibility of having to go to court one day and testify as to why we were negligent. After all, that is why all these rules are in force today, to protect the 'Organization' from litigation in case someone is injured or something is damaged.

Write to your District V.P. and tell him that we want 537 COMPLETELY REMOVED from the AMAs' arsenal. Write to the Executive Director, Ms. Joyce Hager, and tell her the same thing.


James Ross, Leader Member
AMA 778628

abel_pranger

Jim-

I agree with your observations, biased a bit by having come to respect your opinion over the course of time that you have been posting here. WRT, the inspection thing, I think that's a major bugaboo. IMAA dropped this requirement on the rational basis that it may encumber the inspector with the legal liability for the airworthiness of somebody else's model in the event of a liability situation. They considered it unreasonable, and I agree, that the guy doing the inspection should be held liable for invisible things he has no control over, i.e., did the builder use enough epoxy when joining the wing at the dihedral joint? Maybe AMA will get the message someday, after the big wheeler dealers with their entourage of lawyers are gone. IANAL, and I'm grateful that I didn't have to stoop to that, but I agree that 537 has some potential to ensnare people in legal problems nobody needs - except for hungry trial lawyers, and I'd just as soon not be one filling their slop troughs.

Abel

JimRoss

Abel,
Thanks for your support in this. If we can get enough people to get on the wagon we can get it removed completely. I ain't buying that it cannot be removed without EC action since it was NOT approved by the EC in the first place. Joyce can remove it if she decides to, after all she is the ED.

BTW, it feels nice to hear someone say that they respect your opinion. I will try to stay worthy of that in the future.



JimRoss

J_R

Jim

I don't know for a fact, and this is only my opinion. You are correct that Joyce can push the buttons to remove 537, however, that does not mean she may. SomeONE told her to leave it. I would bet on that.

JimRoss

J_R,
You are undoubtedly correct in that statement. SomeONE told her to leave it there and I'll be willing to bet that if I ask her who that someONE was/is, I won't get a straight answer. However, that will not prevent me from asking the question.

I'm getting tired of people peeing down my leg and telling me that it's raining.

jimross

J_R

Jim

Joyce tries to be apolitical. At the same time, she has 14 bosses. Take a look in the minutes of the EC, relative to the instant membership flap. You will find that she opposed the action she was directed to take. The rest of the EC did not see fit to pass a motion supporting the action she was directed to take. She did as she was directed by the president, until the that EC meeting where the topic was raised. She did have her say when it was brought before the EC.

I bet she is hiding in a bunker. I would be. You can ask, but, you might as well wait till the next EC meeting. I have a hunch the issue will be resolved there, one way or another.

JimRoss

I'm sorry for Joyce if she has to put up with that kind of situation, BUT, she has chosen her path in life. Every job has good points and bad points. I emailed her with a letter I wrote about the infamous 537 and am still waiting for a reply to see what the justification is/was for keeping the document in place.

I have a hard time understanding the position of the EC. If the document has never been passed on by the EC, what is it doing there amongst other documents that are official. Can anyone on the staff post documents there at their own whim? If this document is there then it can be construed as being official simply by existing.

The EC will not address this problem unless it is put on the agenda to be discussed. Now who can we get to put this matter on the agenda so that it can be heard?

JimRoss

J_R

Hi Jim

The .pdf documents on the AMA page are to help the membership. They are not listed anywhere as "official". Look through them. Many are to help clubs in situations where the club may have no expert. Some are regulations. Some are just informational.

I know Carl Maroney posts most of them. I do not believe there is any firm rule or policy about what is posted. The attempt has always been to be helpful to the clubs and the memberships.

This, and the requirement for by-laws are the only times I can remember seeing complaints. Complaints that are genuine concerns, mind you, but still, most of the documents are helpful.

As you know, the EC does not sit in Muncie at all times, but meets there several times a year. Calling an unscheduled EC meeting is very unusual. Last time I know of was when DB had concerns about the turbine rules and called for an emergency EC meeting in the form of a conference call. The by-laws set the way an EC meeting must be conducted. You can't just call the guys and BS... that ain't an EC meeting. As a result, there is no "EC position".

Sometimes we lose sight of the fact that this is not a club of 150 members and that the AMA is somewhat more tied to protocol.

You can ask your VP to put an item on the agenda. A right you are insured of in the by-laws... but... he does not have to honor your request. If he does not, you can then address the other members of the EC to do so. If you find a white knight, your item will be put on the agenda. If not... not.

I think if you talk to Sandy, this item has raised enough stink so no prompting is necessary.

Hossfly

Like all other Bylaws requirements that our elite EC disregards, I suppose the VP doesn't have to do so, as you, JR, so state.

Yet, the Bylaws require the DVP, when so requested by a District AMA member, to forward such request for EC action to the President and to the Executive Director who shall forward copies to all members of the Executive Council.
Then any EC member *MAY* have the item placed on the agenda.

Again the big catch is Article XIV which empowers the President the ultimate power to determine the Order of Business.
Therefore if DB doesn't want to talk about it, it ain't gonna' be talked about.

Besides being focused on things far from promoting model aviation among the populace, the EC members are basically ignorant of the big picture concerning most tasks they underwrite (to subscribe to : agree to):

In my request for EC action, as stated in the post beginning this thread, I received this admittance of ignorance:
>>>"Horrace:

I understand, and agree with, the majority of what you outline here.

Just as an FYI, the EC was not, generally, aware of the 537 document, when it passed the motion to require a "Safety
Officer", and, thus, didn't factor into it's thinking the ramifications of it's contents. ................"
<<<<

IMO it's another sad day when the EC will pass these hip-shot motions without first considering all items already concerning the motion subject. They must think they are congressmen or such! [:@] It is very difficult for me to believe that no one on that council, plus those there such as Hager and Maroney would not remember D-537 and bring up those ramifications for consideration, UNLESS THERE WAS SOME ULTERIOR PLAN already established.[]
Oh Well, at least one responder admits to P__$ Poor thinking or no thinking at all.
BTW SF has not acknowledged the email, and the snail-mail should be at his door in Weatherford. Hope he left a forwarding address to Muncie.[:-][>:]