Go Back  RCU Forums > RC Airplanes > AMA Discussions
Reload this Page >

Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

AMA Discussions Discuss AMA policies, decisions & any other AMA related topics here.

Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

Reply

Old 11-05-2004, 04:41 PM
  #1  
atmycabin
Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (10)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Los Alamos, NM
Posts: 84
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

Our club lost our flying site last year. Most of the members paid the annual dues and supported the club in the search of a new site. Some members however refused to pay the dues "because the club can not provide a flying site". Now that we have managed to establish a new site (i.e. all the heavy lifting is over) these former members are requesting to re-join. Most of the current club members who have contributed a substantial amount of sweat equity would like to see the club by-laws revised to provide the option to prevent "fair weather" members from rejoining and allow ejecting members that consistently violate club rules.

Can this be done without creating a legal "discrimination" issue?

I would appreciate any guidance you may have. Thanks for your time in advance.
atmycabin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 04:50 PM
  #2  
Crashem
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Jewett, NY,
Posts: 2,218
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

Let me get this straight you're mad because some members stopped paying dues when your FLYING club lost its FLYING site????

How dare they refuse to pay dues to a flying club without a flying site.

atmycabin you need to step back and take a couple of deep breaths.

Simple thing to due if you really are as small and petty as you sound is to charge new members an one time sign up fee that way you and the others won't feel slighted by these others who are benefiting from all your heavy lifting
Crashem is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 04:50 PM
  #3  
stuk_at_work
My Feedback: (111)
 
stuk_at_work's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manalapan, NJ
Posts: 1,486
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

At our club we have an annual fee that must be paid as well as a "field fund" fee that has to be paid when you first join the club or if you let your membership lapse. Perhaps it is time for your club to enact a field fee. Of course, only currently active members of the club can vote to establish a field fund fee (or not)!

FYI, our field fund fee is $50.
stuk_at_work is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 05:06 PM
  #4  
atmycabin
Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (10)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Los Alamos, NM
Posts: 84
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

Crashem, I was hoping that my request for information would not become personal or interpreted as such. If I were that petty I would not publically ask for help trying to mediate this political hot potatoe. I'm trying to find someone who can suggest a win-win path forward to keep everybody happy without alienating anybody. My primary concern is to prevent club members (on either side of this issue) from spinning this into something childish. I also do not want to establish an additional charge for new members. Most of our newbies are beginners who just sunk a grand into this hobby. I would like to avoid impacting them because of a fewd going on between two camps in our club.
atmycabin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 05:15 PM
  #5  
Crashem
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Jewett, NY,
Posts: 2,218
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

Then why not drop the nonsense of attempting to restrict certain potential members or x-members?

Did it every occur to you that every club has founding members that did all the work to establish the club, and that any non founding member essentially fits into your category.

Also maybe you could define "fair weather" members for me. I simply don't see how one can be called fair weather for not paying club dues when the field is essentially the club. Without it all you have is a bunch of guys sitting around talking airplanes

And no I was not making this personal. I'm just expressing a view point and mentality that is drastically different form your own.
My feeling is so what if they want to join now that the club has something to off namely a field
Crashem is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 05:23 PM
  #6  
atmycabin
Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (10)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Los Alamos, NM
Posts: 84
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

Crashem, we are in violent agreement. "Nonsense" is probably the most appropriate way to categorize this issue.
Now. if only I could convince the rest of the members to move on and have fun

Any suggestions of how to remove members who are a safety liability?
atmycabin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 05:30 PM
  #7  
Crashem
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Jewett, NY,
Posts: 2,218
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

Now. if only I could convince the rest of the members to move on and have fun
Point them to this web site and thread for starters. Nonesense is debated here on a daily basis thats what makes this place so damn entertaining

As far as your second question. You need to have formal safety rules established by the club outlining acceptable and unacceptable behavior. You also need to have a system in place to enforce these rules and you need to spell out in advance how the club will react if these rules are broken.

For instance: You could issue a written warning followed by a suspension (if the person doesn't cleanup their act) Followed by a Formal written cancelation of membership. In order to do this it needs to be spelled out in the clubs by-laws

You could also ask your fellow club members to please grow up that life isn't allways "fair" and there will allways be some people that do the majority of work and a group that simply tags along for the ride.
Crashem is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 05:40 PM
  #8  
MHawker
Senior Member
My Feedback: (16)
 
MHawker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,586
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

Do members have to be voted in? If so, perhaps those members could be voted "out".
MHawker is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 05:50 PM
  #9  
Crashem
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Jewett, NY,
Posts: 2,218
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

One more thing Atmycabin. If that is the feeling of most of the club members I feel sorry for you. Any chance of findind and or starting another club that has a core rule of accepting only sane members.

We had a similar situation a while back with one member who felt "under appreciated" because he was the only one mowing the strip.
It came to a head at one meeting and to make a long story short. This guy was retired lived less then a half mile from the club and mowed the field on thursday or friday mornings. After talking it through he realized that the majority of his "fellow" members were A. Not retired and B. The next closest lived 10 miles away. He found out that another member had attempted several times to mow the field but it was allways done by the time he got off work. Funny thing is no one asked this guy to take on the mowing and everyone else assumed that he did it to keep busy
Crashem is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 05:51 PM
  #10  
atmycabin
Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (10)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Los Alamos, NM
Posts: 84
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

I like the formality of revising the club by-laws. That way everybody knows what to expect going in. Issuing a written warning followed by a suspension followed by a written cancelation of membership would give folks the oportunity to modify their behavior.

Too bad we need to down this path. It would seem that etiquette and pier pressure would be sufficient to keep grown-ups from acting like kids.
atmycabin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 06:01 PM
  #11  
atmycabin
Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (10)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Los Alamos, NM
Posts: 84
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

I actually tried issuing "certificates of appreciation" to members who did contribute disproportionally more in the hope of avoiding any "underappreciated" tantrums. Personally I look at it from the following standpoint: Whatever I do, be it as an officer, be it as a facilitator, be it working at getting a flying site or maintaining a flying site, it ultimately makes it possible for me to fly in a safe and controlled environment. I would have to do all those things (well maybe not the baby-sitting) even if I were not in a club.

Thanks for everyone's input and have a great weekend.
atmycabin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 06:08 PM
  #12  
michpittsman
Senior Member
My Feedback: (11)
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Location: Muskegon, MI
Posts: 598
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

You can TRY to persuade members two different ways: punishment (never popular for some reason) or reward. Perhaps rewarding the members that stuck by the club with a dues discount for next year or some other perk. JIM
michpittsman is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 06:12 PM
  #13  
Geistware
Senior Member
My Feedback: (16)
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Locust Grove, GA
Posts: 12,942
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

To answer your question, your club members can vote in any changes they would like so long as it doesn't break state or federal laws. If you want, you can limit the club size to the members that are on role for this year. No one else can join unless someone else leaves. This is legal and is easy to do.

The real issue is why would you want to do this. If it is a concern, give the members who stayed a discount to next years dues. This will allow all to share the financial burden.
Geistware is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 06:23 PM
  #14  
atmycabin
Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (10)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Los Alamos, NM
Posts: 84
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

I really like the idea of rewarding members who hung in there even when we had no field. This will avoid alienating or punishing new/former members and it will provide the opportunity to honor those members who provided the financial support to establish a new field. Had all members left when we lost the field we would have lost any oppofrtunity of finding a local flying site.

Thanks again[sm=thumbup.gif]
atmycabin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 10:36 PM
  #15  
Jim Branaum
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Posts: 2,615
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

Here are three slightly different points for you to consider.

AMA now REQUIRES your club to have by-laws that INCLUDE a proper way to remove miscreants that provides for due process. If you don't have that, get it A.S.A.P.

My club charges an initiation fee that covers the prior purchases made to support our field(s). When we got a second very nice field, we raised that fee (from $15 to $50) to help recover the funds we invested in the pavilion, parking lot, and entry road.

In the spring it became evident that my club was going to lose lost BOTH flying fields in short order. Since no flying field means no rent and we have been saving up to build another field, money in the bank was not a problem. So just before dues time (30 June) we decided to go the 2005 colander year with no dues. The clear purpose to that was to keep the club together when there was no field. This is probably close to what someone else suggested, just from a different perspective.

In August the landlord of our big new field gave us until 1 Jan to clear the field of whatever we could carry. Two weeks ago I got certified mail from our original landlord telling us to vacate that field by 30 November. Those actions were not unexpected, just unpleasant. However, between the dues paying time and last month we secured another field. The final result is that we still have a flying field and a club to use it.

Good luck in resolving your problems. Remember many plans are better than no plan and the time to start planning is t
Jim Branaum is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 11:07 PM
  #16  
SSRCCPREZ
Senior Member
 
SSRCCPREZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: MAnsfield, MA
Posts: 462
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

Hello,

We,at our club, have the ability to call into question members and their standing. As a private club we can choose if we want to who can fly or be a member at our field. I am also a member of a private golf course and there if any one member votes against a new member than that person is not allowed to join.
However, preventing certain people from rejoining because they did not help with your efforts may be a stretch. MAy I suggest that all new members be required to "donate" 8 hours of volunteer time to your new site as a act of respect to those who stuck it out and acquired a new field. This way it becomes a tradition that money alone is not enough to be a member but real sweat and effort.\

that's my 2 cents hope they help
SSRCCPREZ is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2004, 11:32 PM
  #17  
Hossfly
 
Hossfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: New Caney, TX
Posts: 6,130
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

ORIGINAL: atmycabin

I really like the idea of rewarding members who hung in there even when we had no field. This will avoid alienating or punishing new/former members and it will provide the opportunity to honor those members who provided the financial support to establish a new field. Had all members left when we lost the field we would have lost any oppofrtunity of finding a local flying site.

Thanks again[sm=thumbup.gif]
Atmycabin (AMC), actually I agree with you most all the way. I am surprised that your club's bylaws aren't a bit more detailed in the Club's operation. Those that did not pay dues should not be considered and should have to anti-up for whatever dues, etc that you set.
At my club, loss of AMA is immediate drop from the club, no discussion needed and no refund of any dues paid. Club Dues are annual with a 31 day grace period Jan/ 01 -31. Any previous member not paid up by Jan. 31 reverts to new member status and is responsible for the $50 initiation fee if he should decide to rejoin. No exceptions. In addition a previous member may not vote during the Grace period, but is afforded all other privileges of the Club.
Another individual loss if not paid by 01/31 is the loss of membership months, a kind of stock plan that allows continuous membership to accrue financial interest in the club which owns its facility. Things run pretty straight. So, detailed Bylaws are a necessity for Clubs in this day and time.
Those that shouldered the load during the hard times deserve whatever support you can provide for them. Those that expect other dues-paying members to "provide a flying site" for those that withhold their support do not deserve any consideration other than if they want back in, then anti-up big time. [>:]
May I suggest you visit www.jetero.com and check out those bylaws.

Edited for misspelled word
Hossfly is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2004, 09:06 AM
  #18  
BillyGoat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: -, MT
Posts: 680
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

I agree with rewarding those that stuck with the club. I suggest an elevated status in the club such as being a full voting member. A change in club by-laws can make it so anybody that joins or re-joins the club will have flying privileges but not voting rights, until an established criteria is met. IE: time and/or service to the club.

With a monetary reward the compensation will have to be equal to or better than the amount of the skipped dues. If not there will still be plenty of animosity towards those that “bailed”.
BillyGoat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2004, 02:49 PM
  #19  
Crashem
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Jewett, NY,
Posts: 2,218
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

I agree with rewarding those that stuck with the club. I suggest an elevated status in the club such as being a full voting member. A change in club by-laws can make it so anybody that joins or re-joins the club will have flying privileges but not voting rights, until an established criteria is met. IE: time and/or service to the club.

With a monetary reward the compensation will have to be equal to or better than the amount of the skipped dues. If not there will still be plenty of animosity towards those that “bailed”.
I really don't get it. If the club loses its field how is it still a flying club?

Jim solution was the best problem is that this situation seems to be after the fact.

Hossfly it sounds like you have a great club with a lot of rules and assets so I can understand why you require a larger finanical commitment of your members.

Reading the orignal post leads me to believe that the club was the field. Without it or without some type of plan to replace it I simply don't see how you can fault existing members from paying dues for essentially nothing.

If the club feels that they need to defray the initial costs by charging new members an initiation fee thats fine but to attempt to impose this on only those members who didn't pay dues left the club and now want to rejoin is in my opinion small, petty and vindictive.

AtMyCabin your statement pretty much sums it up

Personally I look at it from the following standpoint: Whatever I do, be it as an officer, be it as a facilitator, be it working at getting a flying site or maintaining a flying site, it ultimately makes it possible for me to fly in a safe and controlled environment. I would have to do all those things (well maybe not the baby-sitting ) even if I were not in a club.
Crashem is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2004, 05:12 PM
  #20  
abel_pranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: St Augustine, FL,
Posts: 2,644
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

ORIGINAL: Crashem


I really don't get it. If the club loses its field how is it still a flying club?
Crashem-
Seems simple enough to me. A flying club that loses it's field is a flying club working to acquire another field, for those that stick with it and are willing to do the work to make it happen.
Hoss mentioned an initiation fee, and provision for such a fee in the by-laws would have provided a simple answer to the thread topic. I belong to a club that had a very similar situation. We lost the use of the field (a closed landfill) for a couple of years when fissures occured in the cap, allowing leakage of methane gas at levels unacceptable to county health and safety monitors (hence, lawyers for the site owner agency), and we were out until funding was made available to fix it. In the interim, club dues were reduced to a minimum (no field maintenence, porta potty service, etc.), and most members stayed in for the long haul. Those that did not and wanted back in when use of the site was restored to us came as new members, on a space-available basis as there is a quota, and paid the initiation fee.

Abel
abel_pranger is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2004, 05:58 PM
  #21  
Live Wire
Senior Member
 
Live Wire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sterling , CO
Posts: 6,059
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

You no you better be tachfull or you could have bigger problems than you started out with. Make sure this is backed by club members. A lot of time people do thing with out taking into consideration what problems this could cause to the club or to individuals. You could loose members you do not want to and possibly you field again. Rule and bylaws are a must for all clubs but they are for all not just a few, most clubs have them and they read where clubs have the right to accept or revoke a membership. It even states that if you quite the club it has to be in writing.
Our club is in this type of situition and it gets where a lot of people don't care and things start getting personal and a club does not need a cloud hanging over it all the time! If you work to gether on this problem things will probably work them selve out!
Live Wire is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 08:41 AM
  #22  
Roby
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: AMESBURY, MA,
Posts: 1,128
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

It would seem to me that Abel_ Pranger has the only reasonable answer to the original question.

If you let your dues lapse, your out ....same as any other organization.

If you want in again you must start at the beginning just like a "brand new member."

How difficult is that ? Seems rather simple and well defined to me. I do however
expect that some can't understand this and will make this more complicated than it really needs to be.


Regards
Roby
Roby is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 08:56 AM
  #23  
CRFlyer
Senior Member
 
CRFlyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Posts: 314
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

I have to agree with Crashem. A flying club revolves around the flying field. As was stated earlier, I agree with the idea of no dues when there is no field. This has happened to one of my clubs as well, and we simply did not charge dues during the time period that we were without a field.
CRFlyer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 09:32 AM
  #24  
Crashem
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Jewett, NY,
Posts: 2,218
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

Abel,

You might want to reread the original post a bit more carefully also look at mine again. The issue that I was commenting on wasn't about new members be charged an iniation fee or requiring members that let there membership lapse also pay the iniation fee it was about singling out those members who left the club rather then pay dues while the club had no field.

I agree. If you let your membership lapse and want to rejoin you are treated as new member just like the guy who shows up for the first time wanting to join. But that was not the question posed by Atmycabin. look at this quote this is what I was refering to

Some members however refused to pay the dues "because the club can not provide a flying site". Now that we have managed to establish a new site (i.e. all the heavy lifting is over) these former members are requesting to re-join. Most of the current club members who have contributed a substantial amount of sweat equity would like to see the club by-laws revised to provide the option to prevent "fair weather" members from rejoining and allow ejecting members that consistently violate club rules.

See the bolded comments. Thyats what I was calling small, petty and vindictive.

CrFlyer,

Thanks for the vote of support I was begining to think that I was the only one who realized that without a field a flying club is just a bunch of guys who like planes. The Idea of no field no dues is a great one too bad they didn't think of it before hand.
Crashem is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 12:35 PM
  #25  
Mike in DC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 993
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Appropriate way to keep member from joining.

At this point, I think it's too late. You have learned a valuable lesson on the purpose of initiation fees. Establish one now for the next time you lose a field. The heavy lifters will just have to be happy nursing their sanctimoneous grudges, which is what would have happened anyway, had all the club members paid their dues but not done the "heavy lifting".
Mike in DC is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service