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Saftey rule

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Old 12-08-2004, 12:13 PM
  #1  
xplayer930
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Default Saftey rule

i think the AMA should add another rule to the book. Too many accidents are happenign at the filed with ney guys seriously injuring there hands in the prop arc. I think as part of your first solo flight you should have to demonstraight a complete starting ruteen that will be pracitced every time an aircraft is fired up. Over the years i have seen some really dumb accedents due to lack of a ruteen. Being the way i am iv had a ruteen for the past 11 years and within that time frame, have never had a serious injury, just a couple of kick backs, and even then it left no markings on me, because of a chicken stick.
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Old 12-08-2004, 12:29 PM
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SSRCCPREZ
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Default RE: Saftey rule

Hmmm....... I think this is an attempt to legislate common sense.

We have had practically zero accidents at our field in fifty years.

If a pilot is that dumb as to put his hand in the arc of a prop......then maybe he should A.)use a starter
B.) stick to electrics

Sorry but come on.........do you really think a rule will help the stupid people? The way I see it they can only do it ten times then no longer an issue.
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Old 12-08-2004, 12:50 PM
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Default RE: Saftey rule

Somewhere on RCU there's a post quoting an old Enya engine manual, which (as I recall) stated "It is to be understood that a little skin may be lost in adjusting the needle".

I have seen several people stick fingers in the prop arc, at the two fields where I fly. One of them had to be taken to the hospital by other members. I didn't witness that one, but I did see an old-time flyer reach over the prop and stick his thumb in it, one spring - and then again the following spring! The second time, we made him go get stitches.

Other than that, I have seen very few incidents in the last 5 years. I hope to not see them. I would not expect an AMA rule to prevent these momentary lapses in attention.

Just my opinion,
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Old 12-08-2004, 12:52 PM
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John Murdoch
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Default RE: Saftey rule

ORIGINAL: SSRCCPREZ

Sorry but come on.........do you really think a rule will help the stupid people? The way I see it they can only do it ten times then no longer an issue.
Let's just make a new rule... "NO STUPID PEOPLE" There are accidents but from what I've seen, there are just as many "stupid people".
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Old 12-08-2004, 01:01 PM
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Default RE: Saftey rule

At first I thought this was a Troll....but then I noticed where the poster is from. No surprise the first thing thought to do is to enact another rule. Good thing about this hobby, it has kind of a built in dumbass rejector. Just don't be around when they get their notice of rejection.

It is not your responsibility to baby sit the stupid. Nature will take care of them, not rules.
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Old 12-08-2004, 01:34 PM
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Jim Thomerson
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Default RE: Saftey rule

The poster has a valid point. If you have a well considered ritual and stick to it you will probably not bleed much. It is when you have a break or change in the ritual that it gets really dangerous. This is particularly the case if you have not flown for a while.

The last time I was in the emergency room, it was because I reached out with my left hand and stuck it, for no reason, into a spinning APC. Stupidity is really dangerous!

Jim
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Old 12-08-2004, 01:38 PM
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Default RE: Saftey rule

here is my opinion for not having the rule. (darwin is great!) let the stupid ones remove a couple fingers, it becomes pretty hard to fly a plane after you have lost a couple digits, so they drop out of the hobby... problem solved!

besides, that is way outside what the ama regulates, that would be a club rule, not ama. ama has no requirement for training or solo flights to start with, so pretty hard to implement this rule without that anyway...
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Old 12-08-2004, 01:39 PM
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Default RE: Saftey rule

ORIGINAL: xplayer930

i think the AMA should add another rule to the book. Too many accidents are happenign at the filed with ney guys seriously injuring there hands in the prop arc. I think as part of your first solo flight you should have to demonstraight a complete starting ruteen that will be pracitced every time an aircraft is fired up. Over the years i have seen some really dumb accedents due to lack of a ruteen. Being the way i am iv had a ruteen for the past 11 years and within that time frame, have never had a serious injury, just a couple of kick backs, and even then it left no markings on me, because of a chicken stick.
If you think a rule is needed, then propose it to your club and see if you can get it enacted there, where you can attempt to enforce it. AMA has no means of enforcing such a rule, so if it were made at that level it wouldn't prevent accidents, it would just leave anyone injured by a prop without AMA insurance compensation for medical treatment. Be aware that if your club does make such a rule it will be automatically included in the AMA Safety Code as far as your club is concerned. That means you would be voiding your club members' coverage of prop injuries just as though it were an AMA-dictated rule. It would be unfair to them to propose such a rule without advising them of that negative effect it would have.

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Old 12-08-2004, 01:43 PM
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Default RE: Saftey rule

Prop strikes are the number one cause of injuries to AMA members, and certainly a routine should help avoid such incidents.

On the other hand, if a rule will help, why not make a simple rule and add it to the safety code?

Rule 1
I will not stick my body parts in a spinning prop.

Now, do you really think it would help to have such a rule?
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Old 12-08-2004, 01:46 PM
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Jim Branaum
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Default RE: Saftey rule

Jim and Xplayer930,
I agree with you, SAFE PROCEDURES are among the most important thing we can teach. However, I don't feel that common sense can be legislated. What is it 'they' say about common sense? Oh yea, it isn't!

I used to have (last year) a student who had a serious problem with getting various body parts (hands and legs) in the prop arc. After the 2nd or 3rd incident, we told him that he was NOT to start his own engines as the flying field was not supposed to be a place of blood sports. He stopped being my student the day he stuck his hand in the prop again AFTER that rule from the club members that frequent the flying field.

That 'rule' was a choice made by the folks at the field, not a written rule. Just because a rule about something has written does not make things safe. Go survey the turbine folks or the profile guys to get another look at that if you question it.
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Old 12-08-2004, 01:47 PM
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Propwash in Pa
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Default RE: Saftey rule

I believe that your intent in noble, however I do not support a formal AMA “rule”. For those who believe that the feeble minded will go by the way-side through natural selection are generally in the “seatbelts are for sissies” category. I am the safety officer and instruct at a club where many members have not had the benefit of known expectations regarding safety. We are currently establishing written protocols, not to just have a whole bunch of rules, but to (1) enable everyone to have the same safety understanding and expectations, (2) mold or change the behavior of newer (younger) members, and (3) not jeopardize our flying site.
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Old 12-08-2004, 07:22 PM
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Default RE: Saftey rule

Part of our club's training program includes proper field procedure for starting including securing the plane before starting and being aware of the prop. Turns out that the various classes on personal and industrial safety are right. There are almost no accidents, there are only careless and stupid people. People will observe the regulations until they get their A level, then the brain is put into cold storage.
I've only been getting onto these various MA websites since about August, and what I've read combined with what I see at the fields where I fly just leads me to believe that of the three groups of model airplane flyers, RCers may not have more injuries and more "accidents" than the other two groups only because there are more of them, but because they have a higher incidence of injury and property damage because of a greater disregard for safety and safe operation.
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Old 12-08-2004, 07:54 PM
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Default RE: Saftey rule

ORIGINAL: xplayer930

i think the AMA should add another rule to the book. Too many accidents are happenign at the filed with ney guys seriously injuring there hands in the prop arc. I think as part of your first solo flight you should have to demonstraight a complete starting ruteen that will be pracitced every time an aircraft is fired up. Over the years i have seen some really dumb accedents due to lack of a ruteen. Being the way i am iv had a ruteen for the past 11 years and within that time frame, have never had a serious injury, just a couple of kick backs, and even then it left no markings on me, because of a chicken stick.
The AMA already has to many rules and no way to inforce them for one also it would
just give them an excuse not to pay a claim.
what th AMA could and should do is start a saffety education program by providing
videos and other info to clubs dealing with problem areas.
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Old 12-08-2004, 09:03 PM
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xplayer930
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Default RE: Saftey rule

WOOO I really got torn apart on this thread!! Ill know nto to post hear again.[:@]
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Old 12-08-2004, 09:35 PM
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Default RE: Saftey rule

ORIGINAL: J_R

Prop strikes are the number one cause of injuries to AMA members, and certainly a routine should help avoid such incidents.

On the other hand, if a rule will help, why not make a simple rule and add it to the safety code?

Rule 1
I will not stick my body parts in a spinning prop.

Now, do you really think it would help to have such a rule?
Sorry guys--I just had a vision....
I used to fly with the Mesilla Valley Madel Aircraft Club in Las Cruces, NM. Old CL guys were the big-wigs--Bill Melton (of Roadrunner Stunt and Guardian Carrier fame) Jim Young, and the Alberson brothers.
I remember Roy telling the story about a combat match (I think) in Albuturkey where Bill and Roy A were pitting/flying. Bill got distracted and got a hand/finger in the prop, and Roy was hollering at him to "quit bleeding down the venturi!"

Things happen. We lived through them then, and got away with stuff. No "Rule" will prevent it from happening, now, then, or ever.

Roger
Edited to correctly spell Bill Melton
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Old 12-08-2004, 11:14 PM
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Default RE: Saftey rule

ORIGINAL: xplayer930

WOOO I really got torn apart on this thread!! Ill know nto to post hear again.[:@]
Nobody is tearing you apart. Your concern is valid, and it's certainly worth paying attention to. Only a minor detail, i.e., making another AMA rule, didn't seem like the right approach to mitigating the problem. Don't give up on posting here, just stay aware that when you do so, others may have their own opinions about how to deal with the issue you bring up - that's why it is a "discussion" group. For me, it beats the heck out of having an individual or small group of individuals dreaming up their own solutions to problems they perceive and then imposing their grand will and wisdom on us by fiat.

Abel
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Old 12-09-2004, 10:44 AM
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Default RE: Saftey rule

ORIGINAL: xplayer930

WOOO I really got torn apart on this thread!! Ill know nto to post hear again.[:@]

If you had spent some time on this forum, you might have learned that most of the regulars here, while having many different views on most topics, are generally together when it comes to the AMA ramming another senseless rule down the membership's throats.
Even down at the club level, it is very difficult to get members to follow the basic rules of common courtesy, much less those rules that they consider common sense. I, too, have my "start-up procedures" from near 60 years of model flying from CL, FF, and for the last 34 years RC. I don't want or -- IMO -- need anyone telling me how to do differently, yet I break a lot of the
sanctimonious ideas that get ranted here and at the field.

While AMA now mandates a club safety officer, I don't really see the need for that either. _ell, every 100 member club has 25 fliers and 75 SAFETY EXPERTS.

Now may I ask you if you would pay much attention to a safety ruling about word usage and spelling? Probably not, as we can all shorthand in our own way and get the message across. So why do you think anyone is going to pay much attention to AMA's barrel full of safety rules?

When you post something different, just remember there's heat in the kitchen, and that is where things get cooked.
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Old 12-09-2004, 12:51 PM
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Default RE: Saftey rule

There is no sure way, other than completly outlawing prop planes, that we will keep people from getting prop strikes. Rules are just in place to allow politcians and lawyers to exists. The general population will not pay any attention to them until they are caught. And even then, it boils down to lawyers and politicians argueing over the definition of the rule.

In my experience, it has been the flyers with many hours of experience who end up sticking their hands in a running prop because they have become complacient. So why limit a rule to beginers?

Teaching good engine management skills IS vital for any instructor to give, and I for one don't see too many teaching on how to conduct safe prop and motor running skills.

Anyway, no more rules. This post is valid in that it keeps awareness up, that we do work around dangerous equipement, like a buzzsaw without a guard. What I like to see AMA do is provide more literature to hand out, like the condom people do, so that I, Mr. Safety officer can hand Jo Propmonkey a brochure full of bloody, graphic pictures of limbs whenever I see him using unsafe practices around his prop.

Even that doesn't work, the anti smoking people can prove that, but at least it is something that our safety officers can use. I hate this position because all you have is a stupid book full of rules. No pictures, no cartoons, maybe a video, but nothing else.
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Old 12-09-2004, 03:49 PM
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Default RE: Saftey rule

I am not at all advocating the need for another rule. I am strongly endorsing having unwavering safety expectations within your club and build the environment that supports or devolops the correct behaviors. For most "accidents", complacentcy is at the core. Modifying behaviors and establishing new norms is teh proven way to address this situation.
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Old 12-09-2004, 10:12 PM
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Default RE: Saftey rule

There are many rules in effect that are not effective..
Guns are outlawed.. So how many robbers now use guns, none, right..
Hi jacking an airliner is illegal.. Always has been.. So I suppose 911
was someone out for a joyride..
Speed limits are set,, now I know full well everyone of you observe
speed limits.. Correct..
Need I go on.. Didn't think so...

Ejamukaton is da answer.. Tat way I kan leern to speel, leern NOT
tew put mi fangrs into a propallor when speenin' ..


Hence, the new AMA ruling of every club is required to have a
safety officer..
But it comes down to us, each and every hobbist, to make sure
we are safe with what we do and to introduce others into being safer..

Robby

------------------
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Old 12-10-2004, 08:13 AM
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Default RE: Saftey rule

ORIGINAL: J_R

Prop strikes are the number one cause of injuries to AMA members, and certainly a routine should help avoid such incidents.

On the other hand, if a rule will help, why not make a simple rule and add it to the safety code?

Rule 1
I will not stick my body parts in a spinning prop.

Now, do you really think it would help to have such a rule?

Wouldn't reduce the accidents one bit. But...if it was in the safety code and someone did have an accident...that would be a violation of the safety code, and therefore AMA insurance would not cover...so our costs would drop...
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Old 12-10-2004, 04:38 PM
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Jim Branaum
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Default RE: Saftey rule

ORIGINAL: P-51B

ORIGINAL: J_R

Prop strikes are the number one cause of injuries to AMA members, and certainly a routine should help avoid such incidents.

On the other hand, if a rule will help, why not make a simple rule and add it to the safety code?

Rule 1
I will not stick my body parts in a spinning prop.

Now, do you really think it would help to have such a rule?

Wouldn't reduce the accidents one bit. But...if it was in the safety code and someone did have an accident...that would be a violation of the safety code, and therefore AMA insurance would not cover...so our costs would drop...

Last *I* heard, there has never been a claim to AMA that penetrated homeowners insurance denied. There HAVE been lots that were directed to the HO coverage most carry, and in some cases that has irked some. There also have been some where the HO excluded modeling activities where AMA covered the loss. Putting more things in the SC just makes club officers more work and raises THEIR liability because THEY have their collective rear ends on the line whenever a club member fly's at a club field. More SC rules will not increase safety, just financial exposure to more people.
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Old 12-10-2004, 05:41 PM
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Default RE: Saftey rule

ORIGINAL: Jim Branaum

Last *I* heard, there has never been a claim to AMA that penetrated homeowners insurance denied. There HAVE been lots that were directed to the HO coverage most carry, and in some cases that has irked some. There also have been some where the HO excluded modeling activities where AMA covered the loss. Putting more things in the SC just makes club officers more work and raises THEIR liability because THEY have their collective rear ends on the line whenever a club member fly's at a club field. More SC rules will not increase safety, just financial exposure to more people.
Hey Jim-

You musta nodded off.....sticking yer mitt into a rotating prop ain't a liability thing. HO is OT.

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Old 12-11-2004, 01:42 AM
  #24  
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Default RE: Saftey rule

Nah, I did not nod off but you didn't notice that someone suggested more stupid SC rules so the AMA coverage would be null and void and our cost would drop. THAT was what I was responding to.

Please read what I replied to and what I said very carefully and you will see the direct linkages.
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Old 12-12-2004, 05:13 PM
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Default RE: Saftey rule

ORIGINAL: JMurdoch


Let's just make a new rule... "NO STUPID PEOPLE" There are accidents but from what I've seen, there are just as many "stupid people".
How 'bout outlawing the engines and propellers instead? Gliding is much safer
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