JUGFLIER

linkadrip,

Hang in there buddy, it gets better. What i would do is go to the nearest hobbyshop and try to find out the names of all the people like you in your area. There has to be some who are flying like you without a club. It is likely if you look hard enough that one of them may have a opretty decent spot to fly. Get these guys together and organize your own club. If no=one has a good spot, then at least if you get ten people together you guys have collectively look and aquire a flying site. If the clubs in your area are as snobish as you say, there must certainly be some others like you around, there usually is.

KidEpoxy

Aint there a quarter bazillion acres of BLM land along the 58?
Just bring the 22's & a Shotgun so if anybody gets nosey about the planes you can tell them your just out shooting cans & brought the planes along too.

Hossfly

When you get the renewal application for 2008, sometime from late Sep to early Nov. I predict your 2008 bill will reflect a credit for those months in 2008. From then on you will be under the normal calendar year.

This brings all AMA Renewals within the same time period where employee time can be directed to that mass effort, and the best deal is that those Volunteer Charter Club Officers don't have to fumble all year to keep track of who is and who is NOT a current AMA member.

For those that say such is not needed in this computer age, I challenge you to go be a Secretary or Treasuer for a club of over just 30 members (Let alone those 100+ member clubs) for 2 years and then come back and discuss the work involved. Remember those hours are that modeler's hobby time that he is using for YOUR benefit. BTDT

When you're up to your butt in alligators, it's difficult to remember that your objective was to drain the swamp.

linkadrip

Well i certainly hope so. I will feel alot better when they send me a form and it reflects the months for 2008 really my only main concern was that i wasnt going to get a whole year of mebership, but if they make good on it then everything will be great.

Yes there are other modelers in my town don't know them personaly or anything. the local hobby shop is closing it self down on selling any form of aircraft supplies and the such. Witch really is disapointing, I thought i might be able to meet some of the other modelers through them. After talking to one of the owners of the LHS She stated the reason there closing sales of aircraft products is people come in and buy a heli or plane and then take it home then put it together and bring it back after they have crashed it and expect the hobby store to send it back to the manufacture. Apparently they dont know how to run a LHS there mainly into trains and plan to sell nothing but that and the accessories that go along with it.

Tehachpi has never been a good place for Hobby Shops for some reason. There is a guy that lives down the street from me building a piper cub in his garage i seen the frame work of it when i drive buy, but it doesnt look like he's been to involved in it the fuse has been sitting on a bench most the summer and doesnt look like any progress has been made.
But i'm certain there are more people here in town the LHS Lady told me there is a guy who comes in there and buys fuel for his heli and i'm sure he is flying in one of these empty lots somewere around here but she doesnt seem to know any of the hobbiest on a name basis just now and then one of us will pop up and get some fule or a prop ect.

I purchased the AMA Mebership for the insurance since i'm flying near a Glider Airport in which i have contacted the airport operator about my flying There a private airport and they dont seem to mind that i fly near there airport. There Crop dusters that take off from there pulling GLiders. I dont fly high enough to casue any interference with them, But still the AMA insurance is good to have just in case a crop duster gets to close and i plow into one[:@]

Sorry to get off the subject there i know its why the AMA is not growing, as long as they make good on there memberships. I think that they will grow, you have to have the mebership to go and fly at any reputable flight field and i can understand why mainly for the insurance, but its a choice. You don't have to have the membership and can go fly like my son and i have for the past year, no one seemed to mind that we were out flying in a field and several people have seen us flying out in the field we goto. But the hobby is secretive in alot of ways, very seldom do you see anyone out flying anywere.

The Club i refered to is in a closed community that is difficult to get into unless you know someone who lives in that comunity it is nearly impossable to get into the valley unless you have a good 4X4 and know a way to sneak in and then if you get caught driving around in the valley without a Pass i'm almost certain your looking at being arrested. that makes it difficult to have any part of there activities unless you a resident there.

the other club bear mountain flyers is in Arvin havent been to it yet, looked at there web site and there closed to intro pilots and fly mostly from what i can see large gas planes there. But its worth a look to see what there all about.

So with all the little things added up alot of people won't bother Sighning up for the AMA Mebership and i can see were it would start to decline in numbers. But those that are devoted to the hobby will most likely get the AMA Mebership especially if you have thousands of dollars invested in your hobby as i have. whats a few more bucks I just bought servos for one of my helis and spent 87 bucks way more then a mebership. But you cant say its not growing they just got me so there one number stronger

Glacier Girl

My Feedback: (4)

Well maybe it's not that the AMA isn't growing, it's not growing fast enough. AMA vs non AMA fliers.

Looking at it, the AMA is the only game in town, be it what ever the reason. Being the only one of something can be good or bad. Having a monopoly on something can be down right ugly in some cases.

From my limited time as a member, I've done a lot of reading about the AMA, and not just here, and talked to fellow AMA members and officers. What I see is a giant that maybe has gotten too far out of touch with the newest trends so to speak. Times do change, and things evolve. What I seem to hear and read a lot, is that the AMA honchos sit in the golden palace in Muncie, and rule the universe from there, never stepping down from their thrones to meet their members.

And so my story.

To me it sounds like they(AMA honchos/ giants) are going about their normal business, and have lost touch with the members and should be members. The explosion of electric flight seems to have been given a shrug from the giant. Kinda like swatting at a pesky mosquito.

The Giant and the Mosquitos

Members concerns over airspace and frequency violations, and the wave of new non member fliers, should have been a jolt to the giant that something needs to be done. But for the most part the giant just went about his business. Figuring that the pesky electric fliers would go away and so too the concerns of the giant's group.

But what happened? The mosquito grew and grew. They did not go away. The giant's members complained more loudly. The giant just kept ignoring both.

And now finally the giant realizes what he's been missing, that pesky mosquito has become a swarm that darkens the skies of his kingdom.

So what does he do? What does he do? Instead of meeting with the mosquito horde and trying to get them to join his group, he goes out and makes up a plan for getting them in his group. Without any input from the mosquitos or his group's members. Instead of trying to make peace, he instead fires the next volley of the war that he's created. His proposed plan would make the mosquitos nothing more then a slave class, who would pay their taxes to him but not be able to join in any of the celebrations. And they would have to find their own playgrounds as they would not be allowed on the giant's playground.

All this did was make the giant's members angry, they did not want "special" members on their lands. And the mosquitos were even more so angered. Why should they join the giant's group to be outcasts, who had to pay to play under the giant's rules, yet not be able to play on the giant's fields, or take part in any of the giant's festivities.

And so the giant went about his day to day routine. Figuring that if he ignored the mosquitos and his members, the problem would just go away.

But it did not go away. In fact it got worse. Some of the giant's members decided they too would act like the giant, and swat at the pesky mosquito's, driving some away. This only made the mosquitos more angry.

But the mosquito horde kept growing, it found it didn't need or want to be any part of the giant's kingdom. The giant's treasury was taking a beating. Money was going out to fight the war and little was coming back in. And the mosquitos kept showing up.

What to do, what to do? Well the giant just kept doing what he always did. But the mosquitos, sneaky devils that they were, decided on a new tactic for the war on the giant.

They started to infiltrate the giant's domain. They weaseled their way into the giant's clubs, they spewed their venom on the giant's members, converting many, some partially, some fully over to the mosquito's side. The giant's members were weakening, the mosquitos were starting to turn the tide of war.

And what did the giant do to save his members? Same old/ same old. Came up with more under thought plans to merge the hordes into his kingdom. And yes by this time it was hordes of mosquitos, not just one horde.

And little of it worked. Yes he had some successes, but small in comparison, to the hordes successes of converting the giant's members to their ways.

And the giant wrung his hands at the loss of members and monies, but again did little to try and get the hordes to join his group, let alone as equals, to the other members.

And so it went, the giant not really trying to convince the hordes that his way was the best way, just trying to get them to join his kingdom so he could suck the monies from them, so he could build bigger and better palaces.

And so it came to be, the giant's time of rule was nearing it's end, as in this kingdom, the group's members had the power to decide who would be the next giant to rule over the kingdom of Muncie.

Would the members elect another giant just like the previous one? One who did little to gain both members and dollars to run the kingdom? Or would there be a new giant, one of the people, who did not sit on a throne all day, one who took the time to understand his group's members and understand the mosquitos. One who would get rid of the bureaucracy the kingdom had become, filled with more chiefs then Indians. Someone who would take the kingdom to the next step, not ignores the future and hopes it goes away?

Well the time is coming, and the giant looking for a re-election is starting to try and butter up the hordes and the members at the same time. Lot's of talk, but so far the normal, very little action to merge the two into a cohesive group that would benefit all.

And so the kingdom of Muncie is on the brink, the members now need to speak up with their vote. If they want the same old/ same old giant, or if they want the kingdom to move forward, to peace and prosperity, with a new type of giant or maybe giant is the wrong word to use. Maybe one of the people, is a better term to use for a new leadership.

Time will soon tell the end of the story, for the near future, in the land of Muncie.

linkadrip

Very intresting story Well hopefully the giant will get new leadership and the mosquito's will have there place in the kingdom as well. I dont see why they shouldn't. i guess i could say i'm in all classes i fly EP Aircraft and Nitro And Gas. So i would think that the Mosquito's are the EP class aircraft cause they buzz through the air like a Mosquito and are small. some of them like Mosquito's (AKA Park flyers). Or maybe i'm just confused buy the story Good story just the same.

Glacier Girl

My Feedback: (4)

LOL, I hadn't even thought of that when I wrote about the mosquitos. But yeah, you get the point of the story. Ignoring the problem didn't fix it, nor did coming up with a plan that pizzzed off both sides. How does the AMA expect growth when they treat both members and non members with this type of attitude.

fliers1

Growth starts at the club level not at AMA headquarters.

CCR

abel_pranger

Well that settles it. AMA's problem isn't the giant's problem.

Abel

Hossfly

Flier1, you and I have been "pen-pals" for a long time, and I seldom ever disagree with you, however in this case while maybe not a disagreement per se, there are some realities that need to be faced.

EXAMPLE: back in the late '60s - early '70s, AMA -- with a membership consisting of mainly competition oriented CL, FF, and RC fliers -- was going out of business. Finally one AMA Pres. Johnny Clemens (sp?) came up with the plan for Charter Clubs to be able to provide PRIMARY insurance for land/site owners. That item happened in AMA Headquarters. It greatly assisted Charter Clubs in negotiations for either civil.private and/or community owned flying facilities.

Then those Charter Clubs, now composed of sport-hobby oriented RC modelers, spread out, obtained more members and thus AMA enjoyed a great spurt of growth. That growth started at the club level, however the club level growth came from an action initiated by AMA headquarters.

Now for 40 years, AMA Leaders (?) have sat on their lard-bottoms and allowed the Charter Clubs to do their recruitment. While AMA has applied some band-aids, AMA has not accomplished anything new to repair the broken artery. Look at the technological changes in model aviation over the time period. What has AMA done to change things for the everyday modeler? Almost nothing, ZILCH! Of course there are new comfort zones which I fully support, such as Muncie itself, however what does that mean to the sport-hobby modeler who does either or both, building and/or flying, as a hobby and recreational activity? It means nothing. Just look at this recent TAG program. While a few clubs have done yeoman service and are using the program as intended, I am well aware of those that simply have absorbed some free models and simulators and doing nothing of significance. AMA programs have to be more than a weekend long. AMA cannot any longer depend on the average working hobbyist to do its legwork.

All these members recruited by Charter Clubs have no real information about what AMA is or could be. They simply want a place to fly. Just pay the dues, get the magazine, and that is simply a fact of life. Nothing more to it. They neither know or have any concern about AMA. Why should they? Like the average citizen, the current AMAer may know what the latest cell-phone can do, but have no clue about WWII, Vietnam, etc. and those that secured their right to own that cell-phone.

So AMA has become that very lazy Giant, expecting the serfs to do all the work. Now the sport/hobby is well being favored by unlimited small airplane interest which can be compared to the great interest in 1/2A -- .19 size CL in the late '40s-early '50s (when GLOW power replaced spark-ignition) where they were flying on almost every schoolyard. No need for this AMA thing back then. Now the "Park-Fliers" have no perceived need or even knowledge of this AMA creature. Many have no knowledge of a model airplane club. That can be evidenced by a significant number of beginners posting in these forums.

The immense population growth and our changes in culture have vastly overshadowed the close-by flying facility. Those that are there are, in many cases, so overpopulated that the new power flier cannot find time to learn to fly. So, naturally get a small electric and fly in a small space and do it for personal pleasure, whereas the established clubs, to a large number of members, are also a social thing.

Therefore, I am firmly of the opinion that AMA Leaders must get off their dead rumps and initiate some significant changes in the way they do business. I proposed 4 real programs. Unfortunately the EC is a self sustaining bureaucracy and outsiders are NOT welcome. Unfortunately the average member has no clue about what AMA is or needs. Unfortunately the average club has adequate problems of its own to take care of and not AMA's problems. Unfortunately the current population growth and expansion leaves little room for toy airplanes because they envision even a glider as a NOISY kid's play-thing. Unfortunately the AMA membership is NOT going to change the EC, so WHY should the self-sustaining Giants pursue anything that might make their labor more than putting on their clean white shirts with their position so well defined, and going out to take bows from the serfs?
Only time will tell,however the clock is quickly running out of sand.

IFlyHawks

I have not read through all 20 pages of this thread but I do have some comments. I have been flying for 16 years and am 33 years old and I still find myself among the "youngsters" at most fields I go to. I have been in the military for 13 years and currently I am a Blackhawk pilot so I move around alot. Without fail every field I go to I receive a chilly reception from some of the regulars that fly there. I understand that a new face is a new face but if I were showing up to the field for the very first time with my first plane it would be a real turn off. I have seldom had anyone be very forthcoming on my first visit and offer any assistance or ask if I wanted to fly and generally when I ask about the club and field rules I am told "get your AMA card, pay your club dues and then you can fly here". I've had my AMA card off and on since I started flying but as was mentioned earlier I have always viewed it as a requirement to fly and not a benefit. The real sticking point for me has been the club dues that some clubs require. At one field I went to the club required $225 for the membership fee and a yearly fee on top of that. Try telling a young kid and his or her parents that if they want to fly at the field they have to shell out more than all of their flying equipment cost. I have done my fair share of flying at rogue fields but I enjoy flying at an established field with other people who have a common interest. I also feel more comfortable when there are safety rules in place. To be fair I have met some very good people at flying fields but they are not the majority. I have just grown a little weary of the "This is our field, what do you want?" attitude that seems a little more pervasive than it seems reasonable to expect.

Rv7garage

My Feedback: (10)

Hawks- all the usual suspects will deny that the behavior you have seen even exists, but you have summed up my reasons for never joining a club. The county I live in has designated spots for R/C flying (and each spot is home to a club, though they don't mow the grass or anything- they just squat on public land [:'(]). The only requirement for use of these fields is an AMA card, ie insurance- and being able to put up with the unfriendly attitude of some of the old farts.[sm=lol.gif]

linkadrip

Well i'm glad i'm not the only one that has noticed the flight field attitudes. I have my own flight field now and have been approved buy the gider airport that i can fly anytime i like witch is great till progress moves towards that direction. But its nice in the sence i dont have to put up with anyones BS and just have fun flying my planes which is great. But i'm going to continue my search of a flight field but probably wont join cause of the cost of membership at most of them. I would much rather spend 2 or 3 hundred bucks on fuel and supplies for my planes or helis and go fly.

Dought my field will be built on any time soon Due to it being BLM land. So i will probably have a spot to fly for a long time.

Glacier Girl

My Feedback: (4)

Leaders are supposed to set an example, if leaders do not, how do you expect the followers to do so?

If leaders are not doing the job, the followers need to replace them with what "THEY" want
Isn't that kinda how our country was founded. Granted it doesn't seem to work in politics right now, but that's another story in itself.


But on the same vein, if the clubs have a poor attitiude towards new fliers, maybe "THEIR" people are in office. Just a thought.

Glacier Girl

My Feedback: (4)

Maybe how the " Giant/Mosquito Story" could unfold.


PART 2

The Giant, seeing he is loosing his grip on his kingdom, decides to make sure that his replacement, from one of the several candidates he and his minions have groomed, wins the election. This will make sure things go on as before, and all his supporters keep their cushy jobs. Names will change, but it will still be the same old game in town.

But the Mosquitos, seeing what is happening decide now is the time to attack. They unleash the "Dark Knight" and his "Plague".[X(]

If you remember in the last episode, the Mosquitos had started infiltrating the Giant's clubs and group. Little by little they worked their way into all the facets of the Giant's realm.

By doing it slowly, the Giant and his minions never really noticed them being there.
But the spies did their job, and slowly advanced their own candidate for the Giant's position.

The Giant and his minions laughed at the "Dark Knight" and his chances at becomming the new Giant. They mocked him and made fun of him and his toys, at every chance they had.

As the election eve grew close, the "Dark Knight" released his Plague.[X(]

Millions and millions of Mosquitos immediatly joined the Giant's group, out numbering the Giant's members by more then 10 to one.
Out of nowhere, at least in the Giant's view, came the hordes of Mosquitos, now voting members of the Giant's own world.

The elections came, and the "Dark Knight" won by an amount never even considered by the Giant and his advisors. Total domination of the Giant's kingdom was now in control of the Mosquitos.

The past Giant, and his minions, and followers quaked in fear. "What is to become of us? "
"Will the "Dark Knight" change all to the Mosquitos way?" "What will we do, how can they make us change?" " We are now the outcasts in the kingdom."

"They will throw us from our lands, treat us with distain, point and laugh at us!"


But no, the "Dark Knight" showed compassion. "We all may be different but we all want the same thing." And so it came to pass Mosquito and Giant became one. And the kingdom of Muncie became even bigger and better, and the rulers who followed were from the people and for the people.

The throne was torn down, the "Dark Knight" said "No ruler shall follow who thinks he is above his people." "He must be a person of the people, with compassion and understanding of ALL his people" "When he is this type, his people will be this type"

And the kingdom lived on forever.

THE END?

Hossfly

GG you are a great story-teller. Great fable, but just that a great fable. My post above illustrates the use of the mushroom plan which is about the best Mosquito control there is.
In today's society, there are far too many that are polluted with the "Me Too" and "What's in it for ME" syndromes to make your fable a true story. I do wish it was different.

KidEpoxy

Nice Story.

I've said stuff along that line for a while
The AMA wants the 2million ParkFliers to join, but then they would be outnumbers 3:1 by the stepchildren they dont really want in. Keep in mnd that when 2million E-Flyers join, something as inconcievable as a Total Ban of Glow Planes could get voted in overnight, next elections would be 10 new E-DVPs, all kinds of crazy stuff could be passed without breaking a sweat by 2 million PFs with voting rights. Not just at Muncie, but local clubs could get insane E-Only / FoamyOnly weekends voted in to cut back on glow planes tieing up the runways.

AMA is not really growing because deep down they dont want the massive pool of non-club flyers to really be in the clubs. It is a pool of millions of PFs and a few thousand glow fliers

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

This would be scary if 2 million park flyers you speak of had the collective attention span long enough to do this. I don't think you will find many AMA glo/gas/glider/electric/heli/foamie/ flyers losing a great deal of sleep over it.

KidEpoxy

Thanx for the example Red.

How many of the 2milion PFs out there does the AMA want as members?
Seems it aint 100% by Red's post, the real AMA members wont lose sleep over getting too many Joiners.
And there is the core problem:
The real members dont want everyone to join, just enough to be a dues paying minority to be kept in check.

But here is another Nightmare Scenario:
What if only 50,000 of the 2mil join with the expressed intent to vote the AMA into their shape?
What was the Voter Turnout for the DVPs last year? When only 5000 real members vote per district, how many PF Vote Invaders does it take to sweep the polls?

This might cause some to worry:
What if they form a low overhead competing club, APFA, and get 50k folks at $59 a pop. The next year the APFA could send a $58 AMA membership to each of its memebers with a list of folks to write in vote for in the AMA. The AMA is structured that you get as many votes as you want to pay for, so APFA could truely buy 50000 votes for its members.

Sure, it is not a bulletproof strategy, but the flaws could be worked out by increasing the hypothetical APFA memberhip number, and making the AMA membership givaway an award to 50000 'select dedicated APFA members' (keeping glow/gas flyers out of the Buy Votes plan)

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

Only if you are good at herding cats you might pull it off - otherwise dream on. It takes a great deal of organization, something that freedom loving park flyers abhor in the first place. Otherwise they would work within the sytem to get things changed.

APFA = SFA = UMA = failure

KidEpoxy

It would be easier to buy controlling votes for $3000k than to change the good ol boy system by using the good ol boy system against the good ol boys. Hoss is not getting very far by using the system, so it is time to think outside the box & just buy control of the AMA.

If that is ones goal.

But this is about getting members to join,
but not wanting them to vote.


<edit, bad math, $58 x 50k>

Glacier Girl

My Feedback: (4)

Only if you are good at herding cats you might pull it off - otherwise dream on. It takes a great deal of organization, something that freedom loving park flyers abhor in the first place. Otherwise they would work within the sytem to get things changed.

APFA = SFA = UMA = failure
[/quote]


Red, How do you know it's not already happening???????[X(]
Where do you think I came from?????? BZZZZzzzzzzz How bout my flying buds, more Bzzzzzz's We all joined the AMA to help the other Mosquitos make a change.

A story/ fable usually has some bit of fact to it. Maybe I'm just one of those little un-noticed spies. And maybe Dave M is the "Dark Knight"
Whoa! wouldn't that shake the AMA tree.

Glacier Girl

My Feedback: (4)

Whoa, now don't go taking my fable as pure fact, as some seem to be. It's nothing more then a story. A "What if ?" if you will. Just something that could happen.

And even though it won't happen over night, I think you will see a change. If more of one certain group of fliers become members, it would be conceiveable that they could easily force their will on the AMA. As the AMA is nothing more then it's members.

And as I said before, everything evolves. Time will play a part too. When the old masters are gone, and take with them their ways, who will be left? Just an overwhelming bunch of mosquitos, taking the AMA to the next step. And who's to say there won't be a change after that? I'm still waiting on the anti-gravitational airplanes to be developed. Crashing will be gone forever.

As I stated earlier, I am a mosquito, and quite a few of my flying buds are too. And we all are voting members of the AMA.

One vote can make a difference. And we have time on our side too.

Bzzzzzzz!!![X(]

fliers1

All of this conversation is very interesting but could anyone state what immediate proactive action AMA could take to increase our numbers? Now what could any or all clubs do to accomplish the same thing? That leaves the RC aeromodeling industry to do their part.

At least until 2004, for those who still think AMA is growing:

ACADEMY OF MODEL AERONAUTICS
MEMBERSHIP COUNTS


Year End Total

1987 122,880
1988 136,044
1989 153,103
1990 165,359
1991 168,190
1992 165,350
1993 168,074
1994 158,927
1995 154,322
1996 153,675
1997 149,700
1998 152,565
1999 157,331
2000 165,365
2001 170,754
2002 173,420
2003 168,075
2004 163,709

Hossfly

But who are you going to have to vote for that will not simply maintain the status quo?

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...75#post8036312