Lorduss

Interesting how long this discussion has gone on, some questions can be answered but never finshed, lol
If i may add my semi-worthless 2 cents to all of this,
Im now 27 years old, quite young and allways was prettymuch the youngest at any field ive ever gone to on non event days, been serious into RC cars 15+ years now, RC airplanes serious 7+ years, i have a remote control version of allmost everything, sub, motorcycle, snowmobile, snowcat, airboat, you name it i have it, or have plans to build it. i have worked full time since i was 16 and sometimes 2 full time jobs, Ive also invested over 4K into a smithy mill/lathe machine and tooling, that virtually everything i make ends up on one of my RC's, Virtually everything i own is my own investment from working, in other words this is a serious hobby for me.
I am also serious into hobbies such as motocross, go-kart racing (on road) Snowboarding, snowmobiling, surfing and a few others i dont care to rember at 2am, this being said as a later reference... im also big on history and extremly frustrated with my generation...

The AMA in my opinion is failing for 2 major reasions, And neather has to do with the AMA or its decisions it self, along with some minor reasions that dont mean as much obviously.
The first has to do with Clubs, i wont touch into this to deeply as it has been resaid to death in this discussion, the typicall atittude at MOST clubs just downright sucks, I lived in orange county California for the last 7 years, sepulveda basin and whittier narrows where my local airfields. Sepulveda basin was just a werid place, to many people, rules and crazy stuff going on to make me interested in flying there, but i LOVED the place during events and swapmeats, The thing that attracts me about clubs is the mass gathering it self, i love RC airplanes and seeing up close peoples wonderfull models, small and large, custom and simple, there all great and those where allways fun, on the otherhand whittier narrows was the only club i realy flew at, what was different about that club was it was on land owned and ran by the city as part of a large park, no members had to put in effort to keep the club and flying site up like many others, but this brought on another interesting set of features, ironicly the landing strip is 50 feet infront of a wall, otherside of that wall is a shooting range, funny i know, so your landings allways started with a big U, and NO flying over that wall at all, park staff would come up and bother anyone without a club made channel tag showing your AMA number, and the one i delt with my first time flying was not polite (i had AMA at the time) finaly i stoped flying there because the attitude was a tad clickish and at times from members rude, when most weekdays i would show up to fly all day, 2 of the 3 people there wouldnt even look at me or talk to me (didnt from the start) it doesnt keep me interested in coming. we all have our storys about this, but it all ends up the same, the attitude just sucks in some way, some where.
On a interesting note of whittier narrows, being in a large, busy park, There was virtually never a moment there was not a person at the fence, starring into the area with a smile and obviously interested and loving what we where doing, asking questions etc. often times more people watching than there with planes, its a real statement when all these interested people looking, and the local club can hardly gain a new member, and honestly that can be attributed to requiring AMA, rules rules rules etc, partialy city enforced because it being a city park...

the other half of why is simply, My generation sucks, yeah it does, and heres why.
To most people my age, Remote control it self is just not interesting, if it is they are not willing to put the time and paitence into it to make it work, and Cars do have a major preference over anything in the air or anything else. i have worked with alot of people my age and younger, even when it came to some of my friends getting somewhat interested in what i do for fun, i just never felt any of them where willing to sit though 15 min of nitro tuning lessions on top of EVERYTHING else he would have to eventually get to know, An honest fact that stretches across my age group, mechanical inclination, paitence and others allmost do not exist, And to be honest to be into any single part of this hobby, fly, ground, water you name it, you have to do your own work and figure things out and if you dont its realy not for you, its like an artist having someone else paint his own painting, it just does not work. A funny tidbit on this is i know 4 people going into college for mechanical engineering, Not one of them is capible of changing the sparkplug in his/her car, maby a tire change but not a proper spark plug change, i belive the skills, abilitys and desires of my age group have changed in ways that end up not benefiting the AMA.
Im big on history also, I think we have been in the industrial revolution for 5-6 generations now basicly? Before that time, and sometimes up untill very recenty generally if you wanted something, you made it. or found someone who knew how to make it and found the money for it, my generation and everyone younger realy dont have to do anything more than go to work and pay for someone to do virtually everything else for them, with my hobbies im big on doing things my self obviously, and love to do everything i can to save money, from going out into the forest to chop trees for firewood for lake tahoe winters to doing my own mechanical work on everything even my full size 2500 chevy silverado, this is just not common in my age group
Its also very easy to understand why parkflying is becoming so popular, not only did this evolution of the industry make it very easy to get into and fly, but it made it easy to get away from clubs to enjoy to your flying, and it also fits with my generation, simple, cheap, easy, close, fast, you name it that works, even less mechanical know how required.
even as the AMA loses members there are still thousands of people picking up flying.

The AMA having stupid outdated rules in there book is no different than the millions of stupid oddball useless laws that exist in every city, county and country, The police still fall back on common sense enforcement(unless they want to be a jerk, like some clubs) Most clubs dont enforce the stupid rules of the AMA and even the price is honestly no big deal, if im going to get into a hobby im going to get into it, i paid for 4 years of AMA membership out of the last 8 so i could fly at clubs with other people and partake in the events, if im going to get into this hobby 60 bucks is no deal breaker, few things i end up needing in this hobby are that cheap honestly.
Speaking of attitude in the clubs, out of all of my hobbies, Hands down the worst attitudes is at AMA clubs ive experanced, i wont even kid you, Motocross punks wont even shine you off like AMA/local club members and thats saying alot, Karting, snowboarding, snowmobiling, RC car tracks, you name it, ive never had attitude problems in ANY hobby of mine, but airplane clubs stand out with attitude and clicks, to an amazing extent.
I think the future of the AMA is not in there hands whatsoever, but future of there fate of sorts, RC everything, especially airplanes is an interesting hobby and allways well be to some. eventually some generation well start to catch on i think after the old timers fade away and the average attitude of AMA clubs change.
then kids can get into it, parents, friends you name it. untill then the AMA can only hold on and weather the storm. i do belive in the AMA for liability, i belive in Cheap insurance period. after all the thousands of dollars of my own hard earned blue colar money ive spent on my hobbies its actually very cheap insurance, and in my opinion the AMA has its place and allways should, it just has to see the change of time, i honestly dont think the AMA needs to change much at all, it could drop the stupid rules. but for the most part change is in time, and people. times change, people change, it all evolves.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Guys,

You have now seen some of the real reasons of AMA's decline in the last few posts...very enlightening if you are willing to keep an open mind or you can keep on with lists of rationales and never accept the truth... your choice.

bradpaul

A serious question to Lorduss concerning your well written post.

I have attached a link to the 2010 AMA Safety Code. Following this set of rules is all that is required by the AMA to have a flying site. Just which rules do you take exception to? It would be helpful to see your perspective on this.

[link=http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/105.pdf]AMA 2010 Safety Code[/link]

Personally I believe very few comply with General Rule 6, and RC Rule 7 is ignored by many 3D flyers.

Clubs can have "Club Rules" and I agree many of them can be BS........... But they are not "AMA Rules". Some would advocate that the AMA should somehow control and/or restrict what rules Clubs can implement. I am NOT one who would support that level of control by a National Organization over a Local Club.

Brad

denwag

Thirty years ago after splashing my third plane (Two Goldberg 63's followed by a Super Kaos 60) and spending countless hundreds of hours of building I gave up and sold all of my stuff. Why because my stupid instructer told me to set my throws at basically snap rates. He set it up for how he wanted it to fly and not how I needed it to fly.
But now Im getting back into it. Why? Two things ARF's and Simulators. Now for just a few more dollars I can have my plane completed without spending time I do not have and I do not need to travel back and forth from a field for two years waiting for an instructor to show up or (not show up) to progress to the level that I have achieved in two months on a Simulator. For those of you that say simulators are overrated and do not replace the real thing Im here to tell you the only thing that they do not simulate correctly is the butterflys in your stomach. I put my 39" P-51 foamy up in the air in my field behind my house and after 20 or so fights I can tell you without a doubt that simulators are the way to go. I joined AMAthis year not for instruction or making friends at the field but so I could fly with a few close friends and put my Giant Big Stick up in the air that I am getting readly right now. The only reason I need AMAis to fly at a field 45 miles away.

Do Isound bitter? Well yes I quit RC 30 years ago never intending to return to a hobby filled with snobs and arrogant Old timers. Well times have changed. Now the 16 year old brings his 120" Edge to the field and proceeds to give the old timers a lesson in hovering two inches off the ground all because of two things ARF's and Simulators

I do not know anything about AMA but I do know that 2010 is a much different landscape that 1980.

Thats my perspective

regards
sbdwag

804

My Feedback: (1)

Pretty much all I have seen here boils down to some folks allow other folks to rain on their parade.
Keeping an open mind includes accepting others faults and quirks and realizing we don't all get along all of the time.
Rationalization? Nope, the simple truth.

Muroc1

I hate to chop out a large extent of this post, but right here is what many of us have been saying all along. Treat others with respect and we will go a long way with promoting this hobby. Too many times the "holier than thou" attitude has turned off a lot or prospective members. Again, we are all AMA/Hobby ambassadors and we should act accordingly. Too often we are more concerned with poking each other in the eye rather than extending a helping hand. I know I'm wasting my time typing this, but for those wondering how they can help, perhaps being more friendly and less confrontational for those may have a different opinion may be in order.

Just a thought.

Frank

Eplane65

My Feedback: (16)

Amen, brother!

bradpaul

My Club continues to grow, so we must be getting some things right some of the time........ but I also understand human nature. We have ~ 75 members at any given time. They are of all ages from kids to old geezers, all races, religions, and demographic backgrounds. Some pinch a penny just to get the next plane and others are multi-millionaires. WE all get along......... most of the time .

But to be honest on any given day depending on the time of day how a newbie is greeted will largely depend of WHO IS FLYING AT THAT TIME. Sad but true []........ some people are just more social and welcoming then others, human nature. To be a member of a Club does to a certain extent require that you accept the fact that there will be guys you like and some you avoid.

How would I approach joining a new Club?

1.) Go to the AMA website and look up the contact details for the Club you are interested in.
2.) Set up an appointment if you can........ otherwise, Go to the field on a weekend morning before noon.
3.) Ask to meet an officer of the Club.
4.) Don't be shy, show your interest in the activities.
5.) Get a feel for the general vibe of the Club, if you don't like it find a different Club.

Pretty much common sense.

Brad

Muroc1

Thanks! And I would also like to add that this is the easiest thing that any of us can do. Plus, as an added benefit, it doesn't cost anything -meaning free, so it is a win-win situation for everyone.

Frank

cj_rumley

AMA does exert control over local club rules. It incorporates them wholesale into the AMA Safety Code in General rule 1, making them effectively AMA rules.

"1. I will not willfully fly my model aircraft in a careless or reckless manner, and will abide by this Safety Code and any additional rules specific to flying sites."

Some of the many "Club Rules" you (and I) agree can be BS may be putting your AMA insurance coverage in jeopardy, for example. Based on this same provision in the SC, a situation chronicled in this forum recently had a member of a chartered club thinking he was empowered to impose club rules on non-club flyers at a public site where the public entity owning the site required operating in accord with the AMA SC.

They can't be brushed off as being not AMA Rules.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Unfortunate...but I'll accept it as truth...

Jim Thomerson

Just musing; I have belonged to six different general (back in the 50's), freeflight or control line clubs. I've never seen the sort of negative attitudes people mention here. I've also flown control line at a site used by outlaw RC fliers. We got along fine.

The Toolman

Its easier to get along with the outlaw fliers than the club members lots of times..Never have run into a OL bunch that had a crappy attitude.
Hang around with the profile boys if ya wanna be with some nice guys for a change. We've had a coupla profile events at our club an things always went a lot smoother than with the club events

bradpaul

I think you and I are in basic agreement and arguing semantics.

Let me give you some examples of BS Club Rules (thank goodness not in my Club)

- THOU MUST FLY THE PATTERN! (including helicopters)
- Helicopters can only fly in a separate area
- No 3D over the runway even if you are the only plane in the air
- No low fast passes even if you are the only plane in the air

These are all real examples I have seen, and are probably the kind imposed by older flyers to keep the younger flyers in line.

These are "CLUB RULES" and not "AMA RULES".

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

BP,

Sometimes I think you might just be ok but I really think you missed his point here... His point is; club field rules are incorporated by default into the SC...No way around that...and as such, those rules invoked by the club can have ramifications that might jeopardize insurance coverarges in some situations, if not well thought out.

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

if those 'club rules" are posted as "field rules", then for that field, they are included in the safety code. BS though they might be. that makes them "de facto AMA rules".

would be real simple to re word SC #1 to eliminate this.

804

My Feedback: (1)

Then you and "he" are both missing Brad's point. AMA did not make the BS club rules. The BS club rules were made by the club, and the insurance ramifications are totally beside the point. You are clouding the issue. Clubs need and should have the ability to make rules specific to their situation, whether you, CJ, or even Brad like them or not.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

I am not sure about your point...It seems we all concede clubs can make BS rules...why do you attempt to make argument about a point we seem to all agree??? Need some RA???LOL

bradpaul

At this point I'm not sure who is arguing with whom about what?

Can we all agree that Clubs can and do make both smart and dumb rules and it's not the job of the AMA to review them?

cj_rumley

Sorry, I can't entirely agree with that, as I disagree specifically with the AMA sanction given to local club rules, BS or otherwise. I don't think AMA should be blindly making de facto AMA rules, as incorporating local club rules in the AMA SC does, without reviewing and approving them.

Of course local clubs should be able to make rules deemed necessary by local conditions and desires of the members (okay 804?), but AMA should not blindly incorporate them by reference into the SC. As LCS reiterated, there are SC ramifications that go beyond safety concerns, as in creating exclusions from insurance coverage. I see no need or benefit for AMA to put their official sanction on local club rules. Until they change that, which would take only a small rewording (or deletion) from SC rule 1, I suggest it would be prudent for clubs to be very cautious when making club rules, being fully aware of the potential adverse consequences of such actions. By such consequences, I mean e.g., leaving a club member with uncovered liability in case of an accident while a BS club rule was not being adhered to. Who would want to bear responsibility for a fellow club member's financial ruin if such an incident were to occur? Not me.

bradpaul

Red Herring........

give me one example where a claim was denied because the pilot was not following a Club Rule.

Brad

cj_rumley

Sure, I'd be glad to. Just get me access to AMA insurance claims disposition data so I have something to work with. I have only had access to reliable info concerning 2 denied claims; no club involved in one (public site - Sepulveda Basin) and defense was "assumed risk," defense of other case was also assumed risk rather than policy exclusions.

If you are inferring it is unlikely to happen, I concur. Model airplane accidents resulting in injury to people and property are also unlikely. So do we conclude from the latter that insurance is not needed because the noise we hear about the risk is a Red Herring?

Cletus

The Toolman

BP, now where will somebody go to look to prove his point, you know dang well the ama ain't gonna give him no examples of that

Stickbuilder

The first one is not a BS rule. It can and will keep down mid air collisions.
The third one is not either for the same reason, if you are not the only plane in the air.

The others might or might not be BS rules.

Most any rule at any venue has a basis for it's existence. In other words, something happened to cause that rule to be put into effect.

Bill, AMA 4720

bradpaul

I live in the "Real World" not the hypothetical one where the AMA is always to blame.

So AS FAR AS YOU KNOW NOBODY has ever been denied a claim for breaking a CLUB RULE.