fliers1

I've been in the hobby for over 40 years. Over that time, I've probably trained several hundred people, most from clubs from all over the US and Canada. For a few years, I ran an RC flight school and therefore received club information from members of hundreds of different clubs. That puts me an unique position of hearing accounts of what's really going on from a beginner's perspective, not that of those in charge, who are usually members who can fly on their own.

I was told of not so good things from those hundreds of clubs. You see how AMA or anyone will receive two different versions of how clubs are run. Who is in control of information coming out of clubs? Those in charge, i.e., the old hats, who are the instructors.

So, as far as AMA Is concerned, lack of fight instruction is not the cause of their declne in membership. In their minds, it must be things like, the instant gratification society, kids not interested in model aviaton, the poor economy, (9.6% are unemployed which means that 90.4% are employed). Anything but lack of quality and quatity RC flight instruction.

Now matter how logical this perspective is, I've presented this before and many times got flamed for it.

Fliers 1

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Some real insight there fliers1...unfortunately It will probably go the way most things have gone in our culture for much too long...the "as long as it isn't affecting me why give a rats behind" mentality...then only b-i-t-c-h about it when things start to...or...implement another useless program to make themselves feel better...so they can say "we tried"...

theriddler33872

those are good points from both and i think i said it once before here but it is the 'want it right now generation' (gen y) that we're fighting (not in the literal sense) i remember when i was a young one i was real interested in flying of all types and it was the "old hats" back then that got me into it but back then i don't remember all the b.s. about the AMA we are all in the same hobby we are all doing the samething basiclly so i don't understand why it is you have to be on one side of the fence or the other .
trust me fliers1 i know all to well about being flamed on the forum ya'gotta give it to rcken for putting up with all of us .
and i'll say it like this the AMA is on the decline for many reasons and we have only scratched the surface i do not believe it comes down to me against you that is the cause i think it's more about the generational gap, the newer generation itself and probably the cost to join both the AMA and a club .
being on the outside i'd join but i have to find a place where i feel at home and welcomed to fly .
it isn't all the "old hats" it's the ones i like to call the almighty AMA'ers the ones that look at change as a bad thing .
thats in part to the decline and of coarse most of us when kids didn't have PS3 or Xbox to rot our minds and our parents told us to get the heck out of the house when it was nice outside . 

fliers1

Quote:

ORIGINAL: theriddler33872

those are good points from both and i think i said it once before here but it is the 'want it right now generation' (gen y) that we're fighting (not in the literal sense) i remember when i was a young one i was real interested in flying of all types and it was the ''old hats'' back then that got me into it but back then i don't remember all the b.s. about the AMA we are all in the same hobby we are all doing the samething basiclly so i don't understand why it is you have to be on one side of the fence or the other .
trust me fliers1 i know all to well about being flamed on the forum ya'gotta give it to rcken for putting up with all of us .
and i'll say it like this the AMA is on the decline for many reasons and we have only scratched the surface i do not believe it comes down to me against you that is the cause i think it's more about the generational gap, the newer generation itself and probably the cost to join both the AMA and a club .
being on the outside i'd join but i have to find a place where i feel at home and welcomed to fly .
it isn't all the ''old hats'' it's the ones i like to call the almighty AMA'ers the ones that look at change as a bad thing .
thats in part to the decline and of coarse most of us when kids didn't have PS3 or Xbox to rot our minds and our parents told us to get the heck out of the house when it was nice outside .

Like I pointed out before. I've had several hundred people come to me for the help. They all told the same story of not being able to get flight instruction from their clubs. They were so desperate to finally get instruction, they were ready to pay almost any amount. Why would anyone pay hundreds of dollars for instruction they are supposed to get free from their clubs?

Many of these folks were not at all well off financially, although some were. They explained to me how they had to wait many long periods just to get a few minutes of instruction, once a week.
It didn't matter if they were millionaires, they were all treated the same. badly.

I ask everyone I meet if they would like to fly my LT-40. Most at first claim they are not interested, but after a while, it turns out that the reason they turn me down is they are afraid of crashing. After I get thm out to the field and prove that I can they can fly my plane without even coming close to crashing and then I have everyone land on their first lesson, usually within 10 minutes, suddenly they become VERY interested and more times than not, buy a complete outfit.

If every club provided excellent customer service like any successful business deems necessary, than none of the alleged other theories would apply. Instead, clubs make it a point to assure everyone will crash immediately. Whether it's intentional or not, this is the best way to scare people away,

Fliers1

theriddler33872

you sound like me in some ways i've always kept somekind of trainer on hand when i'm out flying by myself for that just in case moment although i'm not AMA i do not tell newbys not to join, i teach them till they want to stop i do not charge anything for my time i believe by most standards i am like you supporting my hobby and possibly sending people to be members of the AMAbut all that can be ruined by the bad customer service of a club i agree 100% on that.
i've been in the air for just over 25 + years i am very passionate about the hobby andmyself along with people such as yourself can only get there foot in the door it's the clubs that are slamming the door shut on these people and thats part of my trickle down theory and the big reason behind why the AMA numbers will continue to decline .
please do not get me wrong i have meetAMA'ers that are just as passionate as ior yourself arebut as we've talked over the years i hear them start to question the AMA and some have just let there memberships expire and have found different places to fly and like myself they've just left the .60 planes behind and now fly the parkflyers .
for the AMA to continue it's really going to come down to the clubs and the people's attitudes about the hobby .

fliers1

Some people have a misconception about professional instruction. Those who teach for the fun of it, usually don't hand out business cards, or place expensive ads in related magazines. I offered training by the hour and for people who come from hundreds of miles away, who expect to receive many hours of one-on-on personal attention. I quit teaching professionally, therefore I can give as much or as little instruction as I feel like giving, something I couldn't do in my school. Funny thing, when I did do volunteer instruction, on occasion, my student dldin't show up. When I ran my school, students showed up 100% of the time. lol

I run a small hobby shop now and offer free instruction with every purchase of an aircraft. Also, if the student's trainer takes a dirt nap when I'm assisting the student, I will either repair or if necessary, replace his aircraft.

My problem locally is coming from the old hats. I have a standing offer to teach any club's newbies for free. Guess what? Out of the half dozen clubs in the area, only one club actually sent a begnner to me for help. I did teach a couple of other beginners from a couple of those clubs, but they told me that their club's old hats either never told them about my offer, or if the newbie heard about my offer, the old hats strongly "suggested" not to take lessons from me. They do this even though they tend to be very slow in giving the club's beginner much in the way of instruction.

fliers1

theriddler33872

i think you said you were 44 i'm 42 see your the type that would make me want to join the AMA so i could call you up and ask "hey you going to the field today" ...................
were i'm at all the club members in this local club are 50's on up to almost done, the good'ol boy thing is real strong so i am the outsider but being that this is the only club in a 60 mile radius(i believe) if someone new was to come along this is the first impression there going to get of not only the club life but the AMA, so it's a total loss to the hobby sad but true...

i hear people say alot about "oh my kid ain't into it" my dad wasn't into it, when i was 10 i used to ride my bike across town (small town in the 70's) and i'd watch for hours these guys flying there rc planes it was oneday when a guy came and said "hey kid you wanna try" i was scared to death but i got in there and did it i will never forget that day, now show me (besides a very few) where those guys are at today .
to me it's another feather in the cap of whats wrong and why the AMA is probably on borrowed time and those "oldhats" got that treatment when they started most have forgotin' where they got that start .

even without the AMA there will still be people flying RC planes and heli's .

i don't charge anyone to learn from me but i've got to see that your really into it before i'll stop you from crashing for the hundredth time and most get it fast i teach them how to land first kinda like ********* school just without the couple hundred dollar a day price tag.

dbcisco

Doesn't the AMA forbid anyone flying if they aren't a member?
The insurance thing?

fliers1

AMA doesn't have any authority to prevent anyone from doing anything.

It's club members from some clubs who might have the authority to prevent people from flying if they don't belong to AMA.

Fliers1

dbcisco

OK, let me put it another way. Are AMA clubs insured by AMA for non-members flying ?
If the insurance doesn't cover it, I would understand the clubs not allowing it.
Also, if AMA club insurance doesn't cover it, they should. It might help get new members for the club and AMA.
Forget it, that makes as much sense as putting AMA ads in commercial RC flying mags instead of MA.

103/17

No, the AMA doesnt forbid anyone from flying while they are learning. The insurance coverage and liability are on the shoulders of the instructor while a new pilot is in training and under the supervision of an instructor.

103/17

103/17

The program is called "intro pilot". Most clubs dont involve themselves in intro pilot. Too bad, its a great program. I have trained for better than 20 years and got involved with intro pilot about 5 years ago. Our club in northern VT has 3 Intro Pilot Instructors and the program has been great for us.

103/17

Jim Thomerson

I've had a bunch of kids fly one of my control line trainers. We just signed the kids up as $1 AMA members and let it go at that. I haven't checked lately, but I think a kid up to age ?? can alternatively sign up for a $15 membership which includes Model Aviation.

theriddler33872

i think it would come down to weather the club wants to chance it and it's also a way to get others a intro to the club and trust me after that whole fight and mud slinging these guys came to me in a private email and i've got nothing but respect for them .
and all the others that were doing the insults fighting and mud slinging were all telling how they wouldn't want me in there club, those are the club members that are choking the crap out of the AMA and costing there own club a future they are the almighty AMA'ers that want nothing to do with change .
weather you agree or not the AMA is a business and it's business is to get you involved as they would like to put it in a short to "make you a legal RC pilot" .............. but the AMA's "employees"(in short) are not advertising there business very well, they are shooting them selfs in the foot it's very sad but true .
one more thing ......if someone came up with a better organisation with better policies and organization the AMA would be doomed and you neverreally know someone might see it as a challange,untilthere is another choice the AMA is the only kid on the block this is what you get .

and me i'll find a home oneday it may not be anytime soonbut you never know i may start something locally thats how all these organizations started anyway .

fireman350

After reading the novel that is this thread I have to post a story from a couple weeks ago that happened out to the local club in my neighborhood
I took a young man out to the local club at which I'm known but not a member I am their dealer at the LHS . I took this young man whom I'd been teaching to fly after buying a aircraft from me I was providing instruction at a private location and I thought he might enjoy seeing the larger scale stuff fly ( he owns a small electric cub) we talked to this club member for a couple minutes after he landed his 1/4 scale bird and my young friend told this member how beautiful his plane was and that he was learning to fly on his electric cub and had just performed his first solo the night before the member replied to him the the electric aircraft are not rc aircraft but toys and if you can't fly a real airplane you don't need to fly this comment was also dirrected in to me as now I fly only electric models myself needles to say I and my student were very put off and the student on the way home stated "why would you want to belong to a club with people like that in them" and my reply was I don't and thats why I am not . dont get me wrong most of the guys out at the field are great it is a ama chartered field and one upon a time I built and flew real airplanes like the nosen p-51 i owned flew for 3 years and sold when money was tight With all that being said the only reason I ever had AMA was for the right to fly at a club and now I have a private field to fly on and any given night there may be 5 or 6 of us now 4 of which I trained on their "toy" airplanes and we have a great time with out the AMA. You wonder why the AMA is slowly fading away its people like that member at an AMA field and its people like me that dont deal well with people like that but still love to fly and teach to fly that find some where else to enjoy our "toy airplanes" with out the AMA . " it only takes 1 bad apple to spoil the bunch" again this is my opnion from this side of the AMA fence and this is one of the reasons I will probably never be a AMA pilot again

theriddler33872

let me say this to you fireman350 congrats on getting a kid involved in the hobby and i hope that you were able to keep him involved even after his FIRST exposure to a negitive AMA'er and sorry that happened to you .
and as you've seen i'm not AMA but this is the exact thing that has happened to me and so many others and if the almighty AMA ever gets off there throne and read this it migh just show them why there membership is in a decline .

once again from someone thats in the hobby i am sorry you were delt with in such a way thats not good for anyone .

but hey if they think my electic plane is a toy then i don't really need the AMA after all ............cooooool !

fireman350

What he said to me really didn't hurt my feelings any but I figure if you push the left stick forward and the prop spins it has wings a elevator and a rudder it is a airplane wether its 50 bucks or 5000 bucks I play with nitro engines every day at work i can tune em with the best but at 30 bucks a gallon for the stuff and as much as I love to fly I'd have to take out a loan to sponsor my hobby and I am most certain that any of the pilots I've trained could take any tuned nitro plane and put it threw its paces as well and as safely as any seasoned AMA member I'd really like the line between Toy Airplane And RC airplane cleared up

dbcisco

The FAA will clear some of that up soon. Wait until some AMA members find out they can't fly their "no longer a model" aircraft.
New sUAV regs are coming and if the FAA/ARC get wind of AMA's recent increase in weight allowed for certain "models" they might take it as a slap in the face and ... and slap back.

fireman350

Hope I get my gas 1/3 scale Busa Cub finished and up at least once before then lol

theriddler33872

hey db you gotta link on that by chance sounds like good reading .................................
i really like how the AMA placed blame on the rule violaters on the nasty NON-AMA'ers i almost fell out of my chair laughing it's been the AMA's own violating members that have caused the problems for the AMA  it's a good try, you'd think the AMA would start looking for there violaters on you tube hard to miss'em ....lol !

and yup it's another and real big reason why i'm against the AMA, no not it's members the organization itself .
i wonder why the AMA is on the decline lies , deception holy cow it sounds almost like our government .............

the big thing in all this and the thing that most of us on this thread can probably agree to is tha reason the AMA is on the decline for the last few years is because of the AMA itself , and some of the bad apple members second if the AMA could create some unity in how they would want things done and then maybe weed out the bad ones they'd probably be in a better position .

in what some people are talking about with the AMA (not directed towards you db) and the FAA what everyone should really know is it was the AMA that waved there hands and got the attention of the FAA and i believe they did it so they could get some "brownie points" otherwise we'd probably still be under the radar, once again the AMA shooting itself in the foot .

Hossfly

There is some insight right here in this quote concerning a specific AMA Committee. Can you find what I am thinking about?
IMO, This kind of selection criteria has always damaged the AMA's ability, yet it also falls directly on the membership that simply refuses to elect individuals that accomplish things rather than someone that tickles under the member's chin and coos pretty words. [sm=48_48.gif]

Quote:
"Leader Member Program Development Committee:
Chair: Frank Geisler
Mission Statement: “The AMA Leader Member Committee is tasked with developing new and creative ways to communicate with, and utilize, the diverse education, motivation, and talents of our Leader Members. This potential volunteer force represents nearly 3,000 members that could benefit the Academy and the general membership.�
Committee Members: Greg Minch, Jim Pope, Rusty Kennedy, Red Scholefield, Bob Wilson, Bill Malvey."

Talk about the blind leading the blind!!!!!!

dbcisco

Start with AR097 [link=http://www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/ar097.pdf]HERE[/link]

theriddler33872

i'll just say any of us could start are own thing you'd have to find some land or maybe you've already got the land then insurance and away you go it's a little harder then that i know but you'd more then likely get the AMA's attiention not to mention some people might see it as a good idea and start there own then before you know it the AMA and all it's issue's would be solved .


thank you ..db

dbcisco

I would bet dollars to donuts that if it wasn't for the insurance the AMA would collapse from lack of clubs and members.

theriddler33872

well i'd have to agree but also in the same breath you could get you own insurance weather it be homeowners with provisions or what i think the AMA is just using some kind of group thing but you got to figure a magazine subscription is on average $20 the insurance per person couldn't be more then $30 -40 and i'm being generous they have to make a profit or why would they be invovled in the first place ....

if the AMA was going into the hole like with the ppp program they'ed bail out on everybody and the declining membership is more then likely not due soley to the economy it seems more and more of there own members are getting the attitudes for free thinking .