What can individual clubs do if the AMA folded
01-08-2005, 02:45 AM
#26
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RE: What can individual clubs do if the AMA folded
Since each club has to fill out that form each year to renew the charter, it may be that those in charge of the club do not read the information, or they may not understand it, but they should. Most clubs have made the decision, at some point, to charter with the AMA. Insurance is certainly one of the major reasons. Soo... "everyone" doesn't think clubs must bar non-members. My point is simple, if you are going to post about the AMA insurance, do it factually. IF YOU KNOW, what is the point of dispensing misinformation?
01-09-2005, 04:02 PM
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RE: What can individual clubs do if the AMA folded
Does anyone know what happened to United Modelers of America. They had better coverage than AMA and for less money.
01-09-2005, 04:45 PM
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RE: What can individual clubs do if the AMA folded
It would be interesting to know the correct answer to your question.
Perhaps it was becasue they had no special coverage for clubs and club officers.
Perhaps it was because they had no special coverage for the landlord.
Perhaps it was because claims exceeded their $2,000,000 aggragate.
Perhaps it was because the holders of the policies started to realize with two primary policies, such as UMA and homeowners, the claim would be split between the two and not handled exclusively by either.
Perhaps it was because the limit was only $1,000,000 instead of the $2,500,000 policy offered by the AMA.
Perhaps it was because their underlying insurance company was going to raise the premiums to a level where the cost of membership would be in excess of that of the AMA.
Perhaps it was simply because too few people agreed with your opinion of the UMA coverage and too few people bought it to make a profit.
Does anyone know the real reason?
Perhaps it was becasue they had no special coverage for clubs and club officers.
Perhaps it was because they had no special coverage for the landlord.
Perhaps it was because claims exceeded their $2,000,000 aggragate.
Perhaps it was because the holders of the policies started to realize with two primary policies, such as UMA and homeowners, the claim would be split between the two and not handled exclusively by either.
Perhaps it was because the limit was only $1,000,000 instead of the $2,500,000 policy offered by the AMA.
Perhaps it was because their underlying insurance company was going to raise the premiums to a level where the cost of membership would be in excess of that of the AMA.
Perhaps it was simply because too few people agreed with your opinion of the UMA coverage and too few people bought it to make a profit.
Does anyone know the real reason?
01-09-2005, 07:46 PM
#29
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RE: What can individual clubs do if the AMA folded
Not factually, however I have 'inside knowledge' of insurance companies. Based on that, I am reasonably sure the last reason you gave has a lot to do with what happened to UMA. Or so I was told by a much more educated person in the field, and that is NOT the flying field.
01-09-2005, 08:50 PM
#30
RE: What can individual clubs do if the AMA folded
As an AMA Member since the 60s, I am Not spending $58.00 for an insurance premium. Nor am I spending that much for a magazine. Part of the $58.00 is also maintaining representation with the FCC. And with the FAA. And also keeping communications open with the FAI internationally. And it also helps fuel a retainer for legal counsol. There is also a Scholarship program that helps a number of kids pay for college. And there are many more items that that 58 helps pay for.
$58.00 a year is cheap for what we get.
The SFA, and the UMA, and a couple other challengers over the years failed in part because they were very limited in what they provided to the subscribers comparted to what the AMA gives.
$58.00 a year is cheap for what we get.
The SFA, and the UMA, and a couple other challengers over the years failed in part because they were very limited in what they provided to the subscribers comparted to what the AMA gives.
01-09-2005, 11:36 PM
#31
RE: What can individual clubs do if the AMA folded
The UMA failed because to few people purchased there ins. i was going to become
a member untill i found that there was no field in the area i could fly at with the UMA
a member untill i found that there was no field in the area i could fly at with the UMA
01-10-2005, 12:40 AM
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RE: What can individual clubs do if the AMA folded
ORIGINAL: J_R
<Snip>
Perhaps it was because the holders of the policies started to realize with two primary policies, such as UMA and homeowners, the claim would be split between the two and not handled exclusively by either.
Does anyone know the real reason?
<Snip>
Perhaps it was because the holders of the policies started to realize with two primary policies, such as UMA and homeowners, the claim would be split between the two and not handled exclusively by either.
Does anyone know the real reason?
The AMA is secondary when one has homeowners insurance. So my homeowner rates go up should I have a claim, while Joe Smuck (no offense to anyone) living in an apartment somewhere gets off easy w/o much if any hassle.
I don't know the real reason either....
But IF memory serves, the AMA decided that clubs accepting SFA flyers into the fold, would be totaly without AMA coverage. So the AMA juggernaut played serious hard ball to hold on to it's monopoly.
There was also a big lawsuit between the AMA and the SFA. I don't remember the details.
01-10-2005, 09:02 AM
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RE: What can individual clubs do if the AMA folded
I know first hand (I was in Elliot's club) that one of the issues was flying on public land. As you said, if an AMA club allowed a SFA member to fly they lost their coverage. SFA's position was, since it's public land, they (County, State, etc) should accept ANY insurance that meets the minimum coverage required, not just AMA's insurance.
The whole SFA affair started when our property owner wanted an increase from $1M to $2M. Being an AMA charted club, Elliot called about increasing the amount and was told in so many words to get bent. Elliot, fearing the loss of the field started calling various insurance company's and eventually found Marsha and the SFA. SFA was a great idea, but was managed poorly and was up against the 500 pound gorilla. The rest is history.
BRG,
Jon
The whole SFA affair started when our property owner wanted an increase from $1M to $2M. Being an AMA charted club, Elliot called about increasing the amount and was told in so many words to get bent. Elliot, fearing the loss of the field started calling various insurance company's and eventually found Marsha and the SFA. SFA was a great idea, but was managed poorly and was up against the 500 pound gorilla. The rest is history.
BRG,
Jon
01-10-2005, 09:29 AM
#34
RE: What can individual clubs do if the AMA folded
The AMA never forbad people from joining the SFA. For an AMA chartered club to maintain it's charter, all registered members need to carry the AMA insurance. There may be some legalities involved in this, but as long as the members had the AMA insurance, they could get any other insurance they wanted without predjudicing their AMA membership or insurance coverage.
The SFA brought suit against the AMA, if I remember, on the basis that the AMA was restricting business competition. They lost, and had to pay legal penalties and also, I think, reimburse the AMA. Part of the problem that affected their suite was that they had made public statements about the AMA in the newsletter section of RCM provided to them by Don Dewey that they could not prove in court.
Also, as far as SFA insurance coverage, I made a number of inquiries at the SFA booth at the Toledo show about their insurance, since I was considering adding the extra coverage. They always seemed reluctant to say I would be covered, always emphasizing the PROPERTY OWNER was covered. I felt that under the circumstance their insurance was therefore more expensive than the AMA provided insurance.
I also remember how proud they were in an ad about making congeressmen and senators like John Glenn aware of model aviation. John Glenn was a model flyer before he became an astronaut. There were even pictures of him at various events he competed in in some of the early 50s mags.
The SFA brought suit against the AMA, if I remember, on the basis that the AMA was restricting business competition. They lost, and had to pay legal penalties and also, I think, reimburse the AMA. Part of the problem that affected their suite was that they had made public statements about the AMA in the newsletter section of RCM provided to them by Don Dewey that they could not prove in court.
Also, as far as SFA insurance coverage, I made a number of inquiries at the SFA booth at the Toledo show about their insurance, since I was considering adding the extra coverage. They always seemed reluctant to say I would be covered, always emphasizing the PROPERTY OWNER was covered. I felt that under the circumstance their insurance was therefore more expensive than the AMA provided insurance.
I also remember how proud they were in an ad about making congeressmen and senators like John Glenn aware of model aviation. John Glenn was a model flyer before he became an astronaut. There were even pictures of him at various events he competed in in some of the early 50s mags.
01-10-2005, 01:59 PM
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RE: What can individual clubs do if the AMA folded
There sure was some legalities, such as, If an AMA member held dual memberships and was flying and had an accident, whose coverage was first to pay. AMA said SFA, of course SFA said AMA.
Like I said, it was a good idea that ended up badly for everyone, especially the modelers who now have no choice. Elliot should have stayed out of the business instead of jumping in feet first and not knowing what he was getting into. The incident that really turned me off was the AMA badgering and harrasing Elliot's wife for money after he died. She had NO connection with the SFA and only helped him run his other (real) business. You would think that eliminating SFA as a competitor would be enough for the AMA, but I guess not.
Anyway, this has been discussed ad nauseum and it's all ancient history now.
BRG,
Jon
Like I said, it was a good idea that ended up badly for everyone, especially the modelers who now have no choice. Elliot should have stayed out of the business instead of jumping in feet first and not knowing what he was getting into. The incident that really turned me off was the AMA badgering and harrasing Elliot's wife for money after he died. She had NO connection with the SFA and only helped him run his other (real) business. You would think that eliminating SFA as a competitor would be enough for the AMA, but I guess not.
Anyway, this has been discussed ad nauseum and it's all ancient history now.
BRG,
Jon
01-10-2005, 09:57 PM
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RE: What can individual clubs do if the AMA folded
after reading all of the above good posts. I believe that they have missed the crux of the problem. today its a situation where the young peop; ie, and a lot of the elders- do NOT want regulation and they care less about insurance, a lot of them do not or will not carry insurance on their automobiles even their homes and contents. so why shud they protect the club/themselves against the future. things have sure changed in the past 80 years. the cars are better-- so what!! dick
01-11-2005, 09:17 AM
#38
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RE: What can individual clubs do if the AMA folded
Hi,
A common thread through all these discussions is the perception of the general membership that AMA is an "insurance company", and that's all it's good for. You could hardly blame anyone for thinking that way as almost every thing that's come out of the EC meetings for the last couple of years have been insurance/liability related. There's been precious little from the EC about new technology, think LiPo as the newest example. In fact, some members of the EC are actively trying to limit new technology, ie. DB's recent editorial on the LiPo issue and his refusal to allow a rebuttal to be published in MA to set the record straight.
AMA is at a crossroad, it can either circle the wagons and implement regulation after regulation to protect itself from one of DB's nightmares, and the potential for a large award, or it can spend the resources to further the image of AMA, embrace and promote new technology, and try to put a positive spin on modeling.
IMHO, AMA doesn't have the resources, or the will to do both, so with the re-election of DB the direction that AMA takes will probably be #1.
Sometimes I think that some members of the EC forget this is a hobby and we're supposed to be having fun. It's hard enough to find people to run for office at the local level; by requiring more and more information and forms to be sent to HQ it just reduces further the number of people that will want to get involved thereby helping to cause the collapse of the AMA from the inside and not from external forces.
BRG,
Jon
A common thread through all these discussions is the perception of the general membership that AMA is an "insurance company", and that's all it's good for. You could hardly blame anyone for thinking that way as almost every thing that's come out of the EC meetings for the last couple of years have been insurance/liability related. There's been precious little from the EC about new technology, think LiPo as the newest example. In fact, some members of the EC are actively trying to limit new technology, ie. DB's recent editorial on the LiPo issue and his refusal to allow a rebuttal to be published in MA to set the record straight.
AMA is at a crossroad, it can either circle the wagons and implement regulation after regulation to protect itself from one of DB's nightmares, and the potential for a large award, or it can spend the resources to further the image of AMA, embrace and promote new technology, and try to put a positive spin on modeling.
IMHO, AMA doesn't have the resources, or the will to do both, so with the re-election of DB the direction that AMA takes will probably be #1.
Sometimes I think that some members of the EC forget this is a hobby and we're supposed to be having fun. It's hard enough to find people to run for office at the local level; by requiring more and more information and forms to be sent to HQ it just reduces further the number of people that will want to get involved thereby helping to cause the collapse of the AMA from the inside and not from external forces.
BRG,
Jon
01-11-2005, 09:47 AM
#39
RE: What can individual clubs do if the AMA folded
I keep saying the AMA is much more than an insurance agent and a magazine publisher.
Think back to the 1980s when the current frequency distribution came about. Those who were paying attention then should be aware that commercial remote control companies were actively lobbying to make ALL frequencies in the band SHARED. An R/C flyer under this system could find his radio getting hit by a bridge crane transmitter, or maybe a remotely controlled railroad locomotive on the same frequency. The AMA's frequency committee was not only able to help prevent this and keep our air and surface frequencies exclusive, but was able to help force some manufacturers of equipment on our frequencies to call in and change frequencies on equipment they had sold as being legal on aircraft only frequencies. In fact a local company had one in an overhead crane until we provided him with the info that the radio company had sold him an illegal system. He was able to force the company to replace the unit by using info he got from the AMA. Without the AMA's activities in this area, possibly only those of us who still fly CL and FF would be flying right now. I doubt the R/C industry on it's own would keep us over a potentially more profitable commercial system.
Shortly before the frequencies were finalized, I did contact several industrial radio control companies, and the reps from two of them, when I asked about the frequencies, tried to tell me that they did sell their systems on the aircraft and surface frequencies, and that they were perfectly legal.
The AMA may be far from perfect, but it's the best representative we have. As far as a certain persons being reelected, how many of those who were against him bothered to vote?
Think back to the 1980s when the current frequency distribution came about. Those who were paying attention then should be aware that commercial remote control companies were actively lobbying to make ALL frequencies in the band SHARED. An R/C flyer under this system could find his radio getting hit by a bridge crane transmitter, or maybe a remotely controlled railroad locomotive on the same frequency. The AMA's frequency committee was not only able to help prevent this and keep our air and surface frequencies exclusive, but was able to help force some manufacturers of equipment on our frequencies to call in and change frequencies on equipment they had sold as being legal on aircraft only frequencies. In fact a local company had one in an overhead crane until we provided him with the info that the radio company had sold him an illegal system. He was able to force the company to replace the unit by using info he got from the AMA. Without the AMA's activities in this area, possibly only those of us who still fly CL and FF would be flying right now. I doubt the R/C industry on it's own would keep us over a potentially more profitable commercial system.
Shortly before the frequencies were finalized, I did contact several industrial radio control companies, and the reps from two of them, when I asked about the frequencies, tried to tell me that they did sell their systems on the aircraft and surface frequencies, and that they were perfectly legal.
The AMA may be far from perfect, but it's the best representative we have. As far as a certain persons being reelected, how many of those who were against him bothered to vote?
01-11-2005, 12:06 PM
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RE: What can individual clubs do if the AMA folded
ORIGINAL: F106A
Hi,
A common thread through all these discussions is the perception of the general membership that AMA is an "insurance company", and that's all it's good for. You could hardly blame anyone for thinking that way as almost every thing that's come out of the EC meetings for the last couple of years have been insurance/liability related. There's been precious little from the EC about new technology, think LiPo as the newest example. In fact, some members of the EC are actively trying to limit new technology, ie. DB's recent editorial on the LiPo issue and his refusal to allow a rebuttal to be published in MA to set the record straight.
AMA is at a crossroad, it can either circle the wagons and implement regulation after regulation to protect itself from one of DB's nightmares, and the potential for a large award, or it can spend the resources to further the image of AMA, embrace and promote new technology, and try to put a positive spin on modeling.
IMHO, AMA doesn't have the resources, or the will to do both, so with the re-election of DB the direction that AMA takes will probably be #1.
Sometimes I think that some members of the EC forget this is a hobby and we're supposed to be having fun. It's hard enough to find people to run for office at the local level; by requiring more and more information and forms to be sent to HQ it just reduces further the number of people that will want to get involved thereby helping to cause the collapse of the AMA from the inside and not from external forces.
BRG,
Jon
Hi,
A common thread through all these discussions is the perception of the general membership that AMA is an "insurance company", and that's all it's good for. You could hardly blame anyone for thinking that way as almost every thing that's come out of the EC meetings for the last couple of years have been insurance/liability related. There's been precious little from the EC about new technology, think LiPo as the newest example. In fact, some members of the EC are actively trying to limit new technology, ie. DB's recent editorial on the LiPo issue and his refusal to allow a rebuttal to be published in MA to set the record straight.
AMA is at a crossroad, it can either circle the wagons and implement regulation after regulation to protect itself from one of DB's nightmares, and the potential for a large award, or it can spend the resources to further the image of AMA, embrace and promote new technology, and try to put a positive spin on modeling.
IMHO, AMA doesn't have the resources, or the will to do both, so with the re-election of DB the direction that AMA takes will probably be #1.
Sometimes I think that some members of the EC forget this is a hobby and we're supposed to be having fun. It's hard enough to find people to run for office at the local level; by requiring more and more information and forms to be sent to HQ it just reduces further the number of people that will want to get involved thereby helping to cause the collapse of the AMA from the inside and not from external forces.
BRG,
Jon
One of the things the EC members have done, in the past, contributes to your perception of the EC. When a motion is made, there is usually substantial discussion. Once a consensus was reached, the members tended to vote on the issue to show they were united, with some casting votes that did not reflect their actual position, in spite of the fact that they might hold opposing views. I would hope that this practice will fall aside. It would give us a different view of the EC… a more accurate one. Too often, issues that showed heavy support for, or against, an issue were, in reality, much closer than the final vote appeared. I hope the members of the EC will quit worrying about the appearance of a united front and allow their convictions to be reflected in the votes in the future.
It’s my observation that these people all have their own convictions. Sometimes they align with DB and sometimes they do not. There are one or two VP’s who’s views are similar to DB’s on most issues, IMHO. That is not to say they are rubberstamps, but they seem to hold the same values. When someone says “the EC” I sure would like to see names of those EC members that are viewed in the way the poster perceives the EC member to be. We might find that members view their VP, or other VPs in a positive light, or a negative one, and, over time, a more accurate impression by the members of this forum might emerge.
01-11-2005, 12:57 PM
#41
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RE: What can individual clubs do if the AMA folded
I did, my son and friends, and most of the turbine guys voted for the other Dave. I put the word out as best I could to affect change. It's about all I can do.
As stated previously, DB seems to have a cadre of 15,000 members who will vote for him in every election.
If nothing, he knows how to get the necessary votes to win. You can't take that away from him.
Brg,
Jon
As stated previously, DB seems to have a cadre of 15,000 members who will vote for him in every election.
If nothing, he knows how to get the necessary votes to win. You can't take that away from him.
Brg,
Jon
01-12-2005, 04:26 AM
#42
RE: What can individual clubs do if the AMA folded
Hi Jon (in reply to F106A)
One of the things the EC members have done, in the past, contributes to your perception of the EC. When a motion is made, there is usually substantial discussion. Once a consensus was reached, the members tended to vote on the issue to show they were united, with some casting votes that did not reflect their actual position, in spite of the fact that they might hold opposing views. I would hope that this practice will fall aside. It would give us a different view of the EC… a more accurate one. Too often, issues that showed heavy support for, or against, an issue were, in reality, much closer than the final vote appeared. I hope the members of the EC will quit worrying about the appearance of a united front and allow their convictions to be reflected in the votes in the future.
It’s my observation that these people all have their own convictions. Sometimes they align with DB and sometimes they do not. There are one or two VP’s who’s views are similar to DB’s on most issues, IMHO. That is not to say they are rubberstamps, but they seem to hold the same values. When someone says “the EC” I sure would like to see names of those EC members that are viewed in the way the poster perceives the EC member to be. We might find that members view their VP, or other VPs in a positive light, or a negative one, and, over time, a more accurate impression by the members of this forum might emerge.
One of the things the EC members have done, in the past, contributes to your perception of the EC. When a motion is made, there is usually substantial discussion. Once a consensus was reached, the members tended to vote on the issue to show they were united, with some casting votes that did not reflect their actual position, in spite of the fact that they might hold opposing views. I would hope that this practice will fall aside. It would give us a different view of the EC… a more accurate one. Too often, issues that showed heavy support for, or against, an issue were, in reality, much closer than the final vote appeared. I hope the members of the EC will quit worrying about the appearance of a united front and allow their convictions to be reflected in the votes in the future.
It’s my observation that these people all have their own convictions. Sometimes they align with DB and sometimes they do not. There are one or two VP’s who’s views are similar to DB’s on most issues, IMHO. That is not to say they are rubberstamps, but they seem to hold the same values. When someone says “the EC” I sure would like to see names of those EC members that are viewed in the way the poster perceives the EC member to be. We might find that members view their VP, or other VPs in a positive light, or a negative one, and, over time, a more accurate impression by the members of this forum might emerge.
Admittedly when a DVP, I was at times prone to vote opposite a sure pass or reject item, simply for "....makes it look more democratic.." which I now see as a definite wrong move on my part. I should have been recorded as a vote for my actual position on the item.
However there was never any position held back when I informed my constituency about my position on any subject and the reason for what may have been a contradictory vote. Current EC members simply don't stand up and be counted as individuals.
The "POLITICALLY CORRECT UNITED FRONT" is simply a tool used by the stronger members to intimidate the weaker ones. It was sometimes almost comical to see how those that could appear to be strong in discussion could turn into a bowl of jelly when it appeared they were outnumbered. By the same token the weak always followed the majority which might actually be a true minority, yet had a significant number already intimidated, and the foreseen vote would be a majority.
Therefore, as long as the vote displays a *United Front* then the EC IS the EC. Those that feel they are not being fairly credited, then By G_d, let those individuals stand on their own two feet and be counted. The recorded vote is all I have to judge them by.
When the vote is 'United' then the judgment will be UNITED for all.
