Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
01-13-2005, 10:12 PM
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Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
I have a few questions that I hope some of the AMA guys can answer.
I have recently had a discussion with another flyer, that insists that according to the FAA once a model leaves EYE SIGHT, it becomes classified as a guided aircraft. In which it must be outfitted with redundant control devices, and a self-destruct mechanism.
My questions are as follows:
Is this fact?
If so does the AMA have special permission from the FAA to allow this type of flight or is it against AMA regulations?
If allowed by the AMA, what are the requirements?
Another discussion involved the ability of other modeling groups to operate outside of the AMA, but still retain the insurance necessary to cover accidents.
My questions are as follows:
Are there any currently operating groups or clubs that have insurance coverage comparitive to the AMA?
How are they doing it?
Where are they located?
The next discussion regarded special interest groups involved in policy making with the AMA.
Are there any groups that currently are devoted to electric 3D flight that have the ability to lobby the AMA to govern electric flight in a manner consistant with the electric flyers wishes?
If so, who are they, and how can they be contacted?
If not, what is the AMA doing to get input from electric 3D flyers before writing the AMA rules and regulations?
I realize that these are some difficult questions, I would appreciate any help you guys can offer.
Also, I would ask that you please do not post unless you have facts. Unfortunatly, on the forums many people give their opinions instead of facts. I would like the responses to be as accurate as possible.
I am not considering attempting any of the above(with the exception of joining a group devoted to electric 3D lobbying), but would very much like to know the answers.
Thanks for all your help...
Sincerly,
Bryan Davison
I have recently had a discussion with another flyer, that insists that according to the FAA once a model leaves EYE SIGHT, it becomes classified as a guided aircraft. In which it must be outfitted with redundant control devices, and a self-destruct mechanism.
My questions are as follows:
Is this fact?
If so does the AMA have special permission from the FAA to allow this type of flight or is it against AMA regulations?
If allowed by the AMA, what are the requirements?
Another discussion involved the ability of other modeling groups to operate outside of the AMA, but still retain the insurance necessary to cover accidents.
My questions are as follows:
Are there any currently operating groups or clubs that have insurance coverage comparitive to the AMA?
How are they doing it?
Where are they located?
The next discussion regarded special interest groups involved in policy making with the AMA.
Are there any groups that currently are devoted to electric 3D flight that have the ability to lobby the AMA to govern electric flight in a manner consistant with the electric flyers wishes?
If so, who are they, and how can they be contacted?
If not, what is the AMA doing to get input from electric 3D flyers before writing the AMA rules and regulations?
I realize that these are some difficult questions, I would appreciate any help you guys can offer.
Also, I would ask that you please do not post unless you have facts. Unfortunatly, on the forums many people give their opinions instead of facts. I would like the responses to be as accurate as possible.
I am not considering attempting any of the above(with the exception of joining a group devoted to electric 3D lobbying), but would very much like to know the answers.
Thanks for all your help...
Sincerly,
Bryan Davison
01-13-2005, 11:31 PM
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RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
Boy, oh boy. Those are some difficult questions to answer with any brevity. But , if you read some of the threads in this forum, you will discover that many of these topics have been discussed. I'll kick this one off by saying the AMA does not allow UAV's. You need to being using your eyeballs to fly your plane with your Xmitter. However, AMA is not the omnipotent overlord of model aircraft, just thier clubs.
01-14-2005, 12:30 AM
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RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
ORIGINAL: bdavison
I have a few questions that I hope some of the AMA guys can answer.
I have recently had a discussion with another flyer, that insists that according to the FAA once a model leaves EYE SIGHT, it becomes classified as a guided aircraft. In which it must be outfitted with redundant control devices, and a self-destruct mechanism.
While that is true for man sized craft, I am not sure that applies for our class of vehicle.
My questions are as follows:
Is this fact?
If so does the AMA have special permission from the FAA to allow this type of flight or is it against AMA regulations?
If allowed by the AMA, what are the requirements?
I don't think so. Yes, flight out of unaided visual sight is prohibited in the Safety Code.
Another discussion involved the ability of other modeling groups to operate outside of the AMA, but still retain the insurance necessary to cover accidents.
Outside the AMA? Yes, and no. If the Safety Code is followed the insurance is still in effect no matter what field you are flying from. As far as I know, there is no longer any competitive group providing any insurance.
My questions are as follows:
Are there any currently operating groups or clubs that have insurance coverage comparitive to the AMA?
How are they doing it?
Where are they located?
The next discussion regarded special interest groups involved in policy making with the AMA.
Are there any groups that currently are devoted to electric 3D flight that have the ability to lobby the AMA to govern electric flight in a manner consistant with the electric flyers wishes?
If so, who are they, and how can they be contacted?
If not, what is the AMA doing to get input from electric 3D flyers before writing the AMA rules and regulations?
The Pro(file) Bro(therhood) group is the nearest I am aware of that represents all 3D folks. Look for their forum on RC UNIVERSE.
I realize that these are some difficult questions, I would appreciate any help you guys can offer.
Also, I would ask that you please do not post unless you have facts. Unfortunatly, on the forums many people give their opinions instead of facts. I would like the responses to be as accurate as possible.
I am not considering attempting any of the above(with the exception of joining a group devoted to electric 3D lobbying), but would very much like to know the answers.
Thanks for all your help...
Sincerly,
Bryan Davison
I have a few questions that I hope some of the AMA guys can answer.
I have recently had a discussion with another flyer, that insists that according to the FAA once a model leaves EYE SIGHT, it becomes classified as a guided aircraft. In which it must be outfitted with redundant control devices, and a self-destruct mechanism.
While that is true for man sized craft, I am not sure that applies for our class of vehicle.
My questions are as follows:
Is this fact?
If so does the AMA have special permission from the FAA to allow this type of flight or is it against AMA regulations?
If allowed by the AMA, what are the requirements?
I don't think so. Yes, flight out of unaided visual sight is prohibited in the Safety Code.
Another discussion involved the ability of other modeling groups to operate outside of the AMA, but still retain the insurance necessary to cover accidents.
Outside the AMA? Yes, and no. If the Safety Code is followed the insurance is still in effect no matter what field you are flying from. As far as I know, there is no longer any competitive group providing any insurance.
My questions are as follows:
Are there any currently operating groups or clubs that have insurance coverage comparitive to the AMA?
How are they doing it?
Where are they located?
The next discussion regarded special interest groups involved in policy making with the AMA.
Are there any groups that currently are devoted to electric 3D flight that have the ability to lobby the AMA to govern electric flight in a manner consistant with the electric flyers wishes?
If so, who are they, and how can they be contacted?
If not, what is the AMA doing to get input from electric 3D flyers before writing the AMA rules and regulations?
The Pro(file) Bro(therhood) group is the nearest I am aware of that represents all 3D folks. Look for their forum on RC UNIVERSE.
I realize that these are some difficult questions, I would appreciate any help you guys can offer.
Also, I would ask that you please do not post unless you have facts. Unfortunatly, on the forums many people give their opinions instead of facts. I would like the responses to be as accurate as possible.
I am not considering attempting any of the above(with the exception of joining a group devoted to electric 3D lobbying), but would very much like to know the answers.
Thanks for all your help...
Sincerly,
Bryan Davison
01-14-2005, 01:04 AM
#4
RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
ORIGINAL: bdavison
I have a few questions that I hope some of the AMA guys can answer.
I have recently had a discussion with another flyer, that insists that according to the FAA once a model leaves EYE SIGHT, it becomes classified as a guided aircraft. In which it must be outfitted with redundant control devices, and a self-destruct mechanism.
My questions are as follows:
Is this fact?
If so does the AMA have special permission from the FAA to allow this type of flight or is it against AMA regulations?
If allowed by the AMA, what are the requirements?
I have a few questions that I hope some of the AMA guys can answer.
I have recently had a discussion with another flyer, that insists that according to the FAA once a model leaves EYE SIGHT, it becomes classified as a guided aircraft. In which it must be outfitted with redundant control devices, and a self-destruct mechanism.
My questions are as follows:
Is this fact?
If so does the AMA have special permission from the FAA to allow this type of flight or is it against AMA regulations?
If allowed by the AMA, what are the requirements?
Not a clue here, however if you go directly to Dave Brown, I am confident that he can answer any question concerning FAI that you might have.
Another discussion involved the ability of other modeling groups to operate outside of the AMA, but still retain the insurance necessary to cover accidents.
My questions are as follows:
Are there any currently operating groups or clubs that have insurance coverage comparitive to the AMA?
How are they doing it?
Where are they located?
My questions are as follows:
Are there any currently operating groups or clubs that have insurance coverage comparitive to the AMA?
How are they doing it?
Where are they located?
UMA just folded a couple months ago. Web site is gone.
If you find another group that is offering insurance outside AMA, please let me know. TIA.
The next discussion regarded special interest groups involved in policy making with the AMA.
Are there any groups that currently are devoted to electric 3D flight that have the ability to lobby the AMA to govern electric flight in a manner consistant with the electric flyers wishes?
If so, who are they, and how can they be contacted?
If not, what is the AMA doing to get input from electric 3D flyers before writing the AMA rules and regulations?
Are there any groups that currently are devoted to electric 3D flight that have the ability to lobby the AMA to govern electric flight in a manner consistant with the electric flyers wishes?
If so, who are they, and how can they be contacted?
If not, what is the AMA doing to get input from electric 3D flyers before writing the AMA rules and regulations?
IMAC is the heavy 3D and scale aerobatic group.
The National Electric Aircraft Council, NEAC, may be interested. Go to AMA web and then to Special Interest Groups. Check them out.
These two groups should be better able to answer that last question concerning input prior to writing rules and regulations. If you can do that, please write a book and tell us all how to get AMA to obtain input prior to making any rule/rgulation.
The next thing would be to get electric 3D people together and form your own SIG. That is how SIGs get started.
01-14-2005, 08:34 AM
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RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
Even though my senses are screaming "troll!" here's the lowdown, in simple terms:
First questions:
If you read the AMA Safety Code, your questions regarding UAVs would be answered. You cannot operate them and expect AMA to cover your butt if something goes wrong. No autonomous flight, no enhanced vision, no flying out of line-of-sight. If you want to develop a UAV, you simply have to provide your own coverage, or operate "rogue" and hope nothing happens.
Second questions:
No, there is no existing SIG for 3D flyers, or electrics. What a novel idea, though. You'd think that instead of throwing temper tantrums and whining like children, the 3D flyers would form a SIG and make sure their concerns are heard BEFORE the rules are on the books.
What is the AMA doing to get input from 3D/electric flyers? Nothing! They, as in the EC, aren't doing anything to get input from anybody when making the rules, because they know what everyone will say: No rules!
First questions:
If you read the AMA Safety Code, your questions regarding UAVs would be answered. You cannot operate them and expect AMA to cover your butt if something goes wrong. No autonomous flight, no enhanced vision, no flying out of line-of-sight. If you want to develop a UAV, you simply have to provide your own coverage, or operate "rogue" and hope nothing happens.
Second questions:
No, there is no existing SIG for 3D flyers, or electrics. What a novel idea, though. You'd think that instead of throwing temper tantrums and whining like children, the 3D flyers would form a SIG and make sure their concerns are heard BEFORE the rules are on the books.
What is the AMA doing to get input from 3D/electric flyers? Nothing! They, as in the EC, aren't doing anything to get input from anybody when making the rules, because they know what everyone will say: No rules!
01-14-2005, 09:18 AM
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RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
On the face of it, the answer to the first question is no. If it were the case, free flight would be banned by the FAA. For the latest information on the subject made available to AMA members take a look at this column written by AMA President Dave Brown: http://www.modelaircraft.org/mag/0804/president.htm . It seems incredibly unlikely that the FAA would require a self destruct mechanism in a model. If anything, it would seem much more likely that such a device would be banned, rather than mandated (just my opinion). At this point, anything officially put forth by the FAA refers to the definition of a model as defined by the AMA (which is in the Safety Code).
There is one long existing club that I am aware of that operates without the mandate of AMA insurance, although they integrate AMA insurance into their program. That club is the Omahawks. See their web site for more information: http://www.omahawks.org/
At this point, no specific SIG exists for small electric 3 D flyers. As was mentioned, the Profile Brotherhood is having some input. As an example of how things are currently working, I will give you an example. Several months ago, I submitted a question as to the AMA position on plucking a small electric from the air, if the throttle was cut. The question was referred to the Safety Committee. A few follow up inquiries and several months went by. Ultimately, I never did get an answer until the new Safety Code was released which appears to allow such action. Ultimately, many rules go through the Safety Committee.
Someone has posted that autonomous flight is banned. That is no longer the case. The Safety Code was changed. It appears that they are acceptable, as long as a RC system is installed, turned on and the aircraft stays within unenhanced vision. I guess the statement is true that fully autonomous aircraft are banned would be true, but the new rule was written so as to allow development of these systems.
There is one long existing club that I am aware of that operates without the mandate of AMA insurance, although they integrate AMA insurance into their program. That club is the Omahawks. See their web site for more information: http://www.omahawks.org/
At this point, no specific SIG exists for small electric 3 D flyers. As was mentioned, the Profile Brotherhood is having some input. As an example of how things are currently working, I will give you an example. Several months ago, I submitted a question as to the AMA position on plucking a small electric from the air, if the throttle was cut. The question was referred to the Safety Committee. A few follow up inquiries and several months went by. Ultimately, I never did get an answer until the new Safety Code was released which appears to allow such action. Ultimately, many rules go through the Safety Committee.
Someone has posted that autonomous flight is banned. That is no longer the case. The Safety Code was changed. It appears that they are acceptable, as long as a RC system is installed, turned on and the aircraft stays within unenhanced vision. I guess the statement is true that fully autonomous aircraft are banned would be true, but the new rule was written so as to allow development of these systems.
01-14-2005, 10:33 AM
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RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
ORIGINAL: Matt Kirsch
SNIP
They, as in the EC, aren't doing anything to get input from anybody when making the rules, because they know what everyone will say: No rules!
SNIP
They, as in the EC, aren't doing anything to get input from anybody when making the rules, because they know what everyone will say: No rules!
Matt,
While that may be true for one or two 'special' folks on the AMA EC, I have found the vast majority to be reasonable, clear thinking, seriously interested in the ideas of others, and willing to consider any solutions. In fact, almost all I have talked to and visited with are seriously looking for ways to improve the AMA, even if the source does not make them happy. The very select few who do not fit that description are remarkable and widely known. Some of that 'special' group make noises and then close their ears as proof of their intelligence, or lack of it.
Please don't use that wide brush, but be more selective.
01-14-2005, 11:26 AM
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RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
ORIGINAL: bdavison
Also, I would ask that you please do not post unless you have facts. Unfortunatly, on the forums many people give their opinions instead of facts.
Also, I would ask that you please do not post unless you have facts. Unfortunatly, on the forums many people give their opinions instead of facts.
01-14-2005, 01:24 PM
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RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
9. The operator of a radio-controlled model aircraft shall control it during the entire flight, maintaining visual contact without enhancement other than by corrective lenses that are prescribed for the pilot. No model shall be equipped with devices which allow it to be flown to a selected location which is beyond the visual range or the pilot.
The second sentence in rule 9 imply semi autonomous flight is permitted. However, the first phrase states clearly that the operator must be controlling the flight at all times. That does not allow semi autonomous flight as I read it.
The second sentence in rule 9 imply semi autonomous flight is permitted. However, the first phrase states clearly that the operator must be controlling the flight at all times. That does not allow semi autonomous flight as I read it.
01-14-2005, 03:46 PM
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RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
The AMA has stated, several times, that co-pilots are OK. They work by sending a radio signal to turn them on, or off. The same is true for semi-autonomous craft. Why am I so sure? I talked to two of the three people that wrote the new Safety Code, about this specific issue.
01-14-2005, 04:20 PM
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RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
I agree that the 2-axis co-pilots are allowed.
But that isn't autonomous flight, YOU are still the pilot.
With these 2 axis co-pilots, it is a small step to write a program and design an interface for autonomous flight. They may not be used for that.
You must be the pilot.
Autonomous flight is still banned
But that isn't autonomous flight, YOU are still the pilot.
With these 2 axis co-pilots, it is a small step to write a program and design an interface for autonomous flight. They may not be used for that.
You must be the pilot.
Autonomous flight is still banned
01-14-2005, 05:36 PM
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RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
ORIGINAL: bdavison
I have a few questions that I hope some of the AMA guys can answer.
I have a few questions that I hope some of the AMA guys can answer.
I'll take a whack at it, but as Mike in DC correctly stated, it's opinion you'll get here, not fact. There are some AMA officials that read this forum that probably could give authoritative answers, but they either don't post or use aliases when they do.
I have recently had a discussion with another flyer, that insists that according to the FAA once a model leaves EYE SIGHT, it becomes classified as a guided aircraft. In which it must be outfitted with redundant control devices, and a self-destruct mechanism.
My questions are as follows:
Is this fact?
If so does the AMA have special permission from the FAA to allow this type of flight or is it against AMA regulations?
If allowed by the AMA, what are the requirements?
FAA has published an advisory regarding model airplanes flown in the vicinity of rider-scale airports, but to date (unless it is very recent and I haven't heard of it yet) their position re model airplanes has been 'hands off.' They do not regulate model airplane and they don't want to, but they do recognize a need to discriminate between model airplanes and UAVs, as they cannot avoid regulating the latter. Government/industry experts are meeting regularly to discuss regulation of UAVs and this discussion involves establishing a defining line between model airplane and UAV. A basic part of that definition which seems to have been accepted is purpose: model airplanes are flown for recreational purposes only, while UAVs generally have a commercial, military or law enforcement purpose. Reports I have seen on their work to date seems encouraging, in that they have accepted a general guideline regarding model airplane enthusiasts that I would like to see AMA adopt: Do No Harm.
Another discussion involved the ability of other modeling groups to operate outside of the AMA, but still retain the insurance necessary to cover accidents.
My questions are as follows:
Are there any currently operating groups or clubs that have insurance coverage comparitive to the AMA?
How are they doing it?
Where are they located?
The next discussion regarded special interest groups involved in policy making with the AMA.
Are there any groups that currently are devoted to electric 3D flight that have the ability to lobby the AMA to govern electric flight in a manner consistant with the electric flyers wishes?
If so, who are they, and how can they be contacted?
If not, what is the AMA doing to get input from electric 3D flyers before writing the AMA rules and regulations?
Abel
01-14-2005, 09:27 PM
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RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
Thank you for all your responses. The answers were very clear and concise. I really appreciate it.
For some reason, I wasnt using the object between my ears when I asked the question about flying outside of line of sight. Common sense would have told me to check the AMA safety code......big DUH on my part. Oh well, everyone has their moments.
I think forming a special interest group for indoor/outdoor electric 3D flying would be a great idea. Our voices need to be heard too.
Unfortunatly some of you may be correct in saying that folks would simply say "No rules".
Im mainly concerned with small foamy electric 3D flight such as shockflyers, and those profile type planes made of light weight foam. I recently got heavily involved with flying these wonderful aircraft, and would like to see the AMA take a serious interest in these types of planes too. With the rapidity that these types of model aircraft are becoming popular, its very important that the AMA keep on top of this. I sincerly believe that this is a BIG part of the future of model aviation. Unfortunatly it seems as though the AMA has little to no interest in trying to offer services, and management of this aspect of model aviation. Its entirely possible that the infancy of this type of flying has not yet caught up to the gas/glow flying aspect, but I think its time for the AMA to get proactive and really get involved in this before it gets WAY out of hand. Ive already noticed things in this type of flying that are less than desireable.
As this type of flying gains popularity, we have pilots that are flying out of their backyards and this raises SERIOUS concerns about how radio emissions from this type of flying will affect local flying fields and other pilots. I fly regularly in the field behind my house. Because of my concern for this, I only fly in the early morning hours and late evening hours, and I regularly check the flight schedule in my local area to keep from flying when I may cause radio interference with other flying events.
The other concern I have is the rapid growth of this type of flight using radios and frequencies that are less than desireable for powered flight. Many of the low cost kits of this type are using radios on 27mhz. The first time some trucker keys up his CB radio, he's probably going to take out some of these planes. As a general rule of the current time most of these types of systems are confined to small foam aircraft, but its only a matter of time before some inexperienced flyer puts one of these systems into a much larger more dangerous aircraft without realizing the risks.
The other problem I see with this is that many of the small foam flying pilots out there see no need for an AMA membership before flying these aircraft...myself included. The AMA needs to offer something to get these pilots interested in joining the AMA. At the current time I havent seen any incentive for these pilots to consider joining. Its a shame because the AMA truly is a great organization, they just need to listen instead of talking, and bring something other than club politics to the table.
Again thanks for the answers.
Bryan Davison
For some reason, I wasnt using the object between my ears when I asked the question about flying outside of line of sight. Common sense would have told me to check the AMA safety code......big DUH on my part. Oh well, everyone has their moments.
I think forming a special interest group for indoor/outdoor electric 3D flying would be a great idea. Our voices need to be heard too.
Unfortunatly some of you may be correct in saying that folks would simply say "No rules".
Im mainly concerned with small foamy electric 3D flight such as shockflyers, and those profile type planes made of light weight foam. I recently got heavily involved with flying these wonderful aircraft, and would like to see the AMA take a serious interest in these types of planes too. With the rapidity that these types of model aircraft are becoming popular, its very important that the AMA keep on top of this. I sincerly believe that this is a BIG part of the future of model aviation. Unfortunatly it seems as though the AMA has little to no interest in trying to offer services, and management of this aspect of model aviation. Its entirely possible that the infancy of this type of flying has not yet caught up to the gas/glow flying aspect, but I think its time for the AMA to get proactive and really get involved in this before it gets WAY out of hand. Ive already noticed things in this type of flying that are less than desireable.
As this type of flying gains popularity, we have pilots that are flying out of their backyards and this raises SERIOUS concerns about how radio emissions from this type of flying will affect local flying fields and other pilots. I fly regularly in the field behind my house. Because of my concern for this, I only fly in the early morning hours and late evening hours, and I regularly check the flight schedule in my local area to keep from flying when I may cause radio interference with other flying events.
The other concern I have is the rapid growth of this type of flight using radios and frequencies that are less than desireable for powered flight. Many of the low cost kits of this type are using radios on 27mhz. The first time some trucker keys up his CB radio, he's probably going to take out some of these planes. As a general rule of the current time most of these types of systems are confined to small foam aircraft, but its only a matter of time before some inexperienced flyer puts one of these systems into a much larger more dangerous aircraft without realizing the risks.
The other problem I see with this is that many of the small foam flying pilots out there see no need for an AMA membership before flying these aircraft...myself included. The AMA needs to offer something to get these pilots interested in joining the AMA. At the current time I havent seen any incentive for these pilots to consider joining. Its a shame because the AMA truly is a great organization, they just need to listen instead of talking, and bring something other than club politics to the table.
Again thanks for the answers.
Bryan Davison
01-14-2005, 09:39 PM
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RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
bdavison
What types of incentives would you like to see? What would peak your interest in joining the AMA?
What types of incentives would you like to see? What would peak your interest in joining the AMA?
01-14-2005, 11:13 PM
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RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
Hmm good question.
How about discounts with manufacturers and hobby suppliers on model materials.
How about programs that offer education in technical aspects that the modeler could use towards a job in an aviation based field.
Yes, I know about the programs such as scholarships, the Yes Grants, ect. How about something every AMA member gets instead of a one time selective scholarship. Perhaps a discounted flying lesson?
How about offering internship programs with aviation companies like Lockheed Martin, or Boeing that are solely dependant on an AMA membership.
How about a program that is a joint project with the military to get modelers to advance into military aspects of UAV flying. As it is the Air Force is actively recruiting model aviation pilots for this express purpose. This should be a joint project with the AMA. This is a HUGE PR opportunity. Think about it. AMA and the US Department of Defense working together to produce top notch aviation personnel.
I used to see model aviation pilots flying at airshows. Recently I havent seen them at any of them. Im not sure why, but this needs to happen more. I know about the AST program, unfortunatly this is not really advertised well when new flyers are told about the AMA. Stuff like this needs to be told to interested parties. This stuff is as important as "you get insurance",
How about offering internship programs with NASA, or better yet Burt Rutan or Yeager's camp.
There are AMA programs that offer seminars or classes that teach model building and other aspects of model aviation to young flyers still in school, but they are few and far between around here. We need more of these. Im not sure why, but the local clubs are not taking advantage of the Adopt-a School programs. What about making some of these classes for modelers that arent in school...some of us older fellows still like to learn too.
There is an absolutely AWESOME aviation museum here. Its the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola, Florida (which I would highly recommend anyone that comes to this area ...GO SEE IT.) This museum regularly has people restoring vintage aircraft. The people that do this restoration are extremely skilled mechanics, airframe mechanics, and other talented people. Perhaps the AMA could link up with restoration centers at museums around the country and get model aviation interested folks in as interns to help restore these aircraft. It would be a wonderful opportunity.
The AMA website states that they offer "Historic Preservation and Research programs (Museum, Archives, and Library)" but as of yet, Ive been unable to find or get any information about this....or are they just talking about the AMA museum in Muncie?
Think about this ....You have a new young flyer, that picks up a AMA brochure(assuming you could actually find a AMA brochure), and reads that if he joins the AMA, they can place him as an intern in Lockheed Martin factory, or he can spend his summer vacation building a Corsair for a museum, or go get flying lessons for cheap.
Its entirely possible that the AMA already offers some of this stuff, but no one has told me about it, and I cant find specific info on the AMA website regarding it.
How about discounts with manufacturers and hobby suppliers on model materials.
How about programs that offer education in technical aspects that the modeler could use towards a job in an aviation based field.
Yes, I know about the programs such as scholarships, the Yes Grants, ect. How about something every AMA member gets instead of a one time selective scholarship. Perhaps a discounted flying lesson?
How about offering internship programs with aviation companies like Lockheed Martin, or Boeing that are solely dependant on an AMA membership.
How about a program that is a joint project with the military to get modelers to advance into military aspects of UAV flying. As it is the Air Force is actively recruiting model aviation pilots for this express purpose. This should be a joint project with the AMA. This is a HUGE PR opportunity. Think about it. AMA and the US Department of Defense working together to produce top notch aviation personnel.
I used to see model aviation pilots flying at airshows. Recently I havent seen them at any of them. Im not sure why, but this needs to happen more. I know about the AST program, unfortunatly this is not really advertised well when new flyers are told about the AMA. Stuff like this needs to be told to interested parties. This stuff is as important as "you get insurance",
How about offering internship programs with NASA, or better yet Burt Rutan or Yeager's camp.
There are AMA programs that offer seminars or classes that teach model building and other aspects of model aviation to young flyers still in school, but they are few and far between around here. We need more of these. Im not sure why, but the local clubs are not taking advantage of the Adopt-a School programs. What about making some of these classes for modelers that arent in school...some of us older fellows still like to learn too.
There is an absolutely AWESOME aviation museum here. Its the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola, Florida (which I would highly recommend anyone that comes to this area ...GO SEE IT.) This museum regularly has people restoring vintage aircraft. The people that do this restoration are extremely skilled mechanics, airframe mechanics, and other talented people. Perhaps the AMA could link up with restoration centers at museums around the country and get model aviation interested folks in as interns to help restore these aircraft. It would be a wonderful opportunity.
The AMA website states that they offer "Historic Preservation and Research programs (Museum, Archives, and Library)" but as of yet, Ive been unable to find or get any information about this....or are they just talking about the AMA museum in Muncie?
Think about this ....You have a new young flyer, that picks up a AMA brochure(assuming you could actually find a AMA brochure), and reads that if he joins the AMA, they can place him as an intern in Lockheed Martin factory, or he can spend his summer vacation building a Corsair for a museum, or go get flying lessons for cheap.
Its entirely possible that the AMA already offers some of this stuff, but no one has told me about it, and I cant find specific info on the AMA website regarding it.
01-15-2005, 12:11 AM
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RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
What you have to look at is the interstructure! The wanna be , the Would be ,And the HAS BEEN AND WHAT THEY ALL HAVE TO SAY AND WHO YOU CAN BELIEVE. We learn that we must get involved! But how far and with who. On this forum you can take you choice and Bet not one has any influence not even Hange Man!
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01-15-2005, 01:25 AM
#18
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RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
Ask not what the AMA can do for You.
Ask what You can do for the AMA.
The AMA has been there, for a long long time, protecting our interests, ( which are also their interests).
This hobby stands on the very edge of personal freedom. Our hobby has been threatened before and will certainly be threatened again. We must be united, all of us, in the manner that makes our voice the strongest possible. We must be poised to defend our freedoms again.
And that is why you join the AMA.
It doesn't matter if you fly at a chartered field or in a private hanger.
Ask what You can do for the AMA.
The AMA has been there, for a long long time, protecting our interests, ( which are also their interests).
This hobby stands on the very edge of personal freedom. Our hobby has been threatened before and will certainly be threatened again. We must be united, all of us, in the manner that makes our voice the strongest possible. We must be poised to defend our freedoms again.
And that is why you join the AMA.
It doesn't matter if you fly at a chartered field or in a private hanger.
01-15-2005, 11:06 AM
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RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
You know back when I was in school, I didnt know about the Adopt-a-school program, ...im not even sure if they had it back then.
I was a card carrying member of the AMA. I flew every chance I got, cold of winter, heat of summer, wind blowing gale force or not, didnt matter to me.
One day I was talking with my shop class teacher, and somehow we got on the subject of model aircraft. I told him that I flew model planes and asked if perhaps one day I could bring in a model plane and fly it behind the school. I got the permission I needed, which did end up hinging on the insurance thing. You can imagine the chaos I caused by walking into the front door of my school with a big glow powered airplane. During my shop class we all went out back of the school in the baseball field. I cranked the plane up and flew it around for a while. Apparently I got everyones attention, because all the P.E. classes stopped doing what they were doing and came to watch. Before I disrupted the entire school, I brought it in for a landing and we all went back inside. For the next week or so, our shop class project was building small rubber band models, which at the end we had a contest to see which one would stay airborne the longest. I think that was the most fun I ever had at school.
There is no doubt in my mind that that same school would NEVER allow any student to fly a glow plane out of the baseball field during school hours now. Things have simply changed. People have become too worried about "lets put the world in a bubble so noone ever gets hurt" philosophy. You know, back when I did this, I put the gallon of fuel, and my flightbox inside my locker. You can imagine the ramifications of such an action today. You would probably be arrested for bringing explosive materials to school. Its really sad. The young folks are the ones missing out.
If you dont take risks, you cant reach for the sky.
Back then there wasnt any such thing as electric 3d indoor flight. Planes like this were just a dream. This sort of thing would be GREAT for bringing into a school now for getting kids involved with model aviation.
Here is the kicker....Now the local flyers regularly fly indoor flight in the VERY SAME school gymnasium every week that we can. Ive seen the after-school kids watching us fly. I can only imagine what ideas are running through their heads. As far as I know, there has been no attempts by the local AMA clubs to get the Adopt-a-school program into the schools. Everyone is perfectly content with sitting idle and doing their own thing. So in a way, your right.....ask not what the AMA can do for you, but what you can do for the AMA.
This being said, the AMA still needs to quit the internal bickering and club politics, and start using their assets to get flyers involved. Addition of benefits that benefit ALL flyers is a good start, instead of ones that are highly selective in who they benefit. The scholarship program is great, but not all AMA members can get that. The AMA has got to start telling folks what they have to offer, instead of just telling them "you get a magazine and insurance".
Perhaps one of the best things I have seen the AMA do in the past years was highlighted in the July 1996 Model Aviation magazine.
The folks in Indiana, did a outreach program that got live programming to 30,000 students nationwide. Now thats impressive. Ive not seen anything like this since. Wonder why? Perhaps they are too busy writing rules, and dealing with those horrid insurance liasons to see the bigger picture.
I was a card carrying member of the AMA. I flew every chance I got, cold of winter, heat of summer, wind blowing gale force or not, didnt matter to me.
One day I was talking with my shop class teacher, and somehow we got on the subject of model aircraft. I told him that I flew model planes and asked if perhaps one day I could bring in a model plane and fly it behind the school. I got the permission I needed, which did end up hinging on the insurance thing. You can imagine the chaos I caused by walking into the front door of my school with a big glow powered airplane. During my shop class we all went out back of the school in the baseball field. I cranked the plane up and flew it around for a while. Apparently I got everyones attention, because all the P.E. classes stopped doing what they were doing and came to watch. Before I disrupted the entire school, I brought it in for a landing and we all went back inside. For the next week or so, our shop class project was building small rubber band models, which at the end we had a contest to see which one would stay airborne the longest. I think that was the most fun I ever had at school.
There is no doubt in my mind that that same school would NEVER allow any student to fly a glow plane out of the baseball field during school hours now. Things have simply changed. People have become too worried about "lets put the world in a bubble so noone ever gets hurt" philosophy. You know, back when I did this, I put the gallon of fuel, and my flightbox inside my locker. You can imagine the ramifications of such an action today. You would probably be arrested for bringing explosive materials to school. Its really sad. The young folks are the ones missing out.
If you dont take risks, you cant reach for the sky.
Back then there wasnt any such thing as electric 3d indoor flight. Planes like this were just a dream. This sort of thing would be GREAT for bringing into a school now for getting kids involved with model aviation.
Here is the kicker....Now the local flyers regularly fly indoor flight in the VERY SAME school gymnasium every week that we can. Ive seen the after-school kids watching us fly. I can only imagine what ideas are running through their heads. As far as I know, there has been no attempts by the local AMA clubs to get the Adopt-a-school program into the schools. Everyone is perfectly content with sitting idle and doing their own thing. So in a way, your right.....ask not what the AMA can do for you, but what you can do for the AMA.
This being said, the AMA still needs to quit the internal bickering and club politics, and start using their assets to get flyers involved. Addition of benefits that benefit ALL flyers is a good start, instead of ones that are highly selective in who they benefit. The scholarship program is great, but not all AMA members can get that. The AMA has got to start telling folks what they have to offer, instead of just telling them "you get a magazine and insurance".
Perhaps one of the best things I have seen the AMA do in the past years was highlighted in the July 1996 Model Aviation magazine.
The folks in Indiana, did a outreach program that got live programming to 30,000 students nationwide. Now thats impressive. Ive not seen anything like this since. Wonder why? Perhaps they are too busy writing rules, and dealing with those horrid insurance liasons to see the bigger picture.
01-15-2005, 11:50 AM
#20
RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
ORIGINAL: bdavison
Perhaps they are too busy writing rules, and dealing with those horrid insurance liasons to see the bigger picture.
Perhaps they are too busy writing rules, and dealing with those horrid insurance liasons to see the bigger picture.
But in your own post you noted how the world has changed (no more flying during school hours)
As unfortunate as that is, it is still true and I think it is logical that the EC/AMA has to focus on insurance right now.
01-15-2005, 12:49 PM
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RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
While Im sure they would not be to pleased with the prospect of flying glow planes at a school, there are other model aviation possibilities that could be done.
Electric indoor flight
Free flight
even small gliders and paper airplanes.
Class instruction on aerodynamics, aircraft design, even avionics.
The AMA has a mall demonstration thing, how about getting the kids in school to build small indoor free flight models, and then have a field trip to the mall where they can show them off. Let the kids get more kids involved. Stop by any mall on a friday night, and it looks like you entered a youth farm.
As of current the AMA is spending an aweful lot of time and resources to keep the insurance people satisfied. Which is needed, but its diverting their attention away from running the organization.
Rule changes have consumed most of their time as the insurance agents keep saying..."oh no you cant do that, if you do we wont cover it". They have been letting the insurance companies dictate how the AMA operates, and this isnt right. If you dont believe this is what is happening, just look in the back of the Model Aviation magazines at the recent rule changes. There must be 3 pages of them in micro font.
It seems as though the AMA is struggling to keep relations between the organization and the insurance companies. Most of this is stemming from the rapidly changing types of flying. 3D flight alone has caused much of the rule changes. The insurance companies see flyers hovering 43% aircraft, and immediatly run back to the office, say"OH MY, we cant have none of that, its too dangerous, we wont cover it" and the AMA is going" Now wait, we can write more rules, we will just make the restrictions so that its less dangerous, can we keep the coverage on it then?" Meanwhile all the 3D flyers are pitching fits, cause the cool new manuever they just spent two months learning how to do, is now banned by the AMA.
Unfortunatly the neglect of running the organization may be what causes the failure in the end. I can easily see the insurance being dropped by the AMA. What happens then. The AMA has spent all the resources telling people to join for the insurance, when it disappears, what happens? The neglect of getting new members by offering other services in addition to the insurance, will make it extremely difficult to keep it running if the insurance goes away. Then all the rule changing, and politics will be seen for what it really is....a waste.
The AMA cannot afford to keep doing business as is. I think they have gotten a little sidetracked with all this insurance business, and lost sight of its true purpose.
Electric indoor flight
Free flight
even small gliders and paper airplanes.
Class instruction on aerodynamics, aircraft design, even avionics.
The AMA has a mall demonstration thing, how about getting the kids in school to build small indoor free flight models, and then have a field trip to the mall where they can show them off. Let the kids get more kids involved. Stop by any mall on a friday night, and it looks like you entered a youth farm.
As of current the AMA is spending an aweful lot of time and resources to keep the insurance people satisfied. Which is needed, but its diverting their attention away from running the organization.
Rule changes have consumed most of their time as the insurance agents keep saying..."oh no you cant do that, if you do we wont cover it". They have been letting the insurance companies dictate how the AMA operates, and this isnt right. If you dont believe this is what is happening, just look in the back of the Model Aviation magazines at the recent rule changes. There must be 3 pages of them in micro font.
It seems as though the AMA is struggling to keep relations between the organization and the insurance companies. Most of this is stemming from the rapidly changing types of flying. 3D flight alone has caused much of the rule changes. The insurance companies see flyers hovering 43% aircraft, and immediatly run back to the office, say"OH MY, we cant have none of that, its too dangerous, we wont cover it" and the AMA is going" Now wait, we can write more rules, we will just make the restrictions so that its less dangerous, can we keep the coverage on it then?" Meanwhile all the 3D flyers are pitching fits, cause the cool new manuever they just spent two months learning how to do, is now banned by the AMA.
Unfortunatly the neglect of running the organization may be what causes the failure in the end. I can easily see the insurance being dropped by the AMA. What happens then. The AMA has spent all the resources telling people to join for the insurance, when it disappears, what happens? The neglect of getting new members by offering other services in addition to the insurance, will make it extremely difficult to keep it running if the insurance goes away. Then all the rule changing, and politics will be seen for what it really is....a waste.
The AMA cannot afford to keep doing business as is. I think they have gotten a little sidetracked with all this insurance business, and lost sight of its true purpose.
01-15-2005, 02:07 PM
#22
RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
ORIGINAL: bdavison
Unfortunatly the neglect of running the organization may be what causes the failure in the end. I can easily see the insurance being dropped by the AMA. What happens then.
Unfortunatly the neglect of running the organization may be what causes the failure in the end. I can easily see the insurance being dropped by the AMA. What happens then.
"What happens then?".....that's easy, no more AMA..at least not the AMA as we know it now. The AMA might not have started in order to provide insurance, but, given the realities of the current US tort system, "insurance" is now the "raison d'etre" of the AMA.
If the AMA collapsed? Well, park fliers would largely keep operating as they do now. CLassic AMA charter club/club field operations would be SEVERLY curtailed, until the inevitable insurance alternative was found/created. It would likely cost A LOT more, and many would pay it, and many would drop out (clubs/club fields that is). The big public park type (non AMA fields) would of course be unaffected except they would be innundated with new fliers from the surrounding defunct club fields.
From what I heard at the convention, the safest thing the AMA could do is ban all prop powered models! The props seem to do more damage than everything else put together!!
01-15-2005, 06:07 PM
#23
RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
From what I heard at the convention, the safest thing the AMA could do is ban all prop powered models! The props seem to do more damage than everything else put together!!
01-15-2005, 11:03 PM
#24
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RE: Questions about how the AMA works, and other important stuff.
ORIGINAL: mr_matt
From what I heard at the convention, the safest thing the AMA could do is ban all prop powered models! The props seem to do more damage than everything else put together!!
From what I heard at the convention, the safest thing the AMA could do is ban all prop powered models! The props seem to do more damage than everything else put together!!