AMA Discussions Discuss AMA policies, decisions & any other AMA related topics here.

AMA and Disabilities

Reply

Old 01-23-2005, 07:07 PM
  #1  
africanmike
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: sarasota, FL
Posts: 81
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default AMA and Disabilities

The board of directors at our club recently recinded a members solo status because his defliberator had ennergised and incapacitated him while he was flying.
This turned out to be a very controversial event at our club. The member is only allowed to fly with a qualified pilot in the box with him.
The board of directors insist that they uphold their decision without the support of the vast majoity of our club members because it is a "safety issue " They also say that AMA advises them to do this. Does anyone know of any precedents to this action and does AMA have a policy in place regarding disabilities.
I contend that the BOD is guilty of discrimination, and that they are setting a very dangerous precedent and may be forcing the AMA to instill policy that they would of preferred to stay away from. All comments appreciated
africanmike is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2005, 07:16 PM
  #2  
mongo
My Feedback: (14)
 
mongo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 2,601
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

don't know all the details, but it sounds a reasonable policy to me.

my own son is epileptic, and i know i wouldna dare to allow him to fly "solo".
mongo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2005, 08:15 PM
  #3  
abel_pranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: St Augustine, FL,
Posts: 2,644
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

ORIGINAL: africanmike

The board of directors at our club recently recinded a members solo status because his defliberator had ennergised and incapacitated him while he was flying.
This turned out to be a very controversial event at our club. The member is only allowed to fly with a qualified pilot in the box with him.
The board of directors insist that they uphold their decision without the support of the vast majoity of our club members because it is a "safety issue " They also say that AMA advises them to do this. Does anyone know of any precedents to this action and does AMA have a policy in place regarding disabilities.
I contend that the BOD is guilty of discrimination, and that they are setting a very dangerous precedent and may be forcing the AMA to instill policy that they would of preferred to stay away from. All comments appreciated
Mike-

Like Mongo, I don't all the details either, but I wouldn't agree with him that your BOD action is reasonable without knowing a bit more. For example, what is the DMV's position on his fitness to drive? That might be the sort of related precedent you need to assess the propriety of the action taken.
BTW, sounds like your club has a BOD to make the members decisions for them. Sorry to hear that. I can empathize, as I belong to such a club also.
abel_pranger is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2005, 08:25 PM
  #4  
CDignition
My Feedback: (9)
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Sarasota, FL
Posts: 703
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

In my Opinion, if the Doctor clears him, and can send a note that the pacer is now working properly, i see no problem with him flying alone...

I would be more worried about him having a health problem alone (passing out with no one around to dial 911) than crashing a plane due to passing out due to being shocked...most guys dont have that cool excuse to crash planes,lol..

africanmike, i have flown at the Venice club, and know Bob Shapiro, and saw the newsletter about this, and thought it was overly excessive at the time, and still do...in my opinion, theres too many old guys that fly that cant see well enough that cause more risk than this fellow does...
CDignition is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2005, 08:37 PM
  #5  
africanmike
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: sarasota, FL
Posts: 81
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

Thanks for input.
No, DMV still allows him to Drive . The defliberator apparently energised too easily and has since been reprogrammed, he also submitted a letter from his cardiologist stating that this should not re-occur. the BOD pounced on the word "should" and used it in part as justification for upholding their decision.
We are a club where the majority of our members are elderly and quite a few have mechanical devices to assist in their quality of life or indeed to keep them alive, yet the BOD did not try to institute a club policy concerning disabilities or life saving mechanical devices before unilatterally recinding this mans solo status, they insist that as it is a safety issue , they do not have to have a vote from the membership to do this , Doesn't seem right to me.
Mongo, I respect your oppinion , but am sure your son has never had solo status , at least since being diagnosed, it was a well known fact that this man had a heart condition, as do many of our members, but he was singled out simply because his defliberator malfunctioned while he happened to be flying
africanmike is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2005, 08:40 PM
  #6  
africanmike
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: sarasota, FL
Posts: 81
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

cdignition , My point exactly. Do I Know you?
africanmike is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2005, 08:42 PM
  #7  
CDignition
My Feedback: (9)
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Sarasota, FL
Posts: 703
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

I would say the Dr note is good enough, and that the DMV did not remov driving rights...he should be allowed to fly...
CDignition is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2005, 09:56 PM
  #8  
abel_pranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: St Augustine, FL,
Posts: 2,644
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

ORIGINAL: africanmike

Thanks for input.
No, DMV still allows him to Drive . The defliberator apparently energised too easily and has since been reprogrammed, he also submitted a letter from his cardiologist stating that this should not re-occur. the BOD pounced on the word "should" and used it in part as justification for upholding their decision.
<snip>
With that addition detail, I think resolution of the issue should start with your Board Of Dictators adding some fiber to their diets.

Abel
abel_pranger is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2005, 10:21 PM
  #9  
CDignition
My Feedback: (9)
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Sarasota, FL
Posts: 703
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

lol @ abel
CDignition is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2005, 11:20 PM
  #10  
TexasAirBoss
My Feedback: (22)
 
TexasAirBoss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,972
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

You can not have a medical, not even a 3rd class medical with a defibrillator. You can not have any pilots license. You can not be an air traffic controller . A letter from a doctor does not suffice. It does NOT matter if the difibrillator has been triggered or not.


Pacemakers are different. You my have a medical with a pacemaker.


Allowing the man to continue to fly with an experienced pilot by his side is indeed a reasonable compromise. I salute the clubs board of directors.


This should not be an issue. A very dear friend of mine has a difibrillator. I would stand by him.
TexasAirBoss is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2005, 11:46 PM
  #11  
ira d
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Moreno Valley, CA
Posts: 3,122
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

The fact that he has a defliberator shows he has a serious medical condition I think
the clubs action or reasonable under such circumstances.
ira d is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 07:44 AM
  #12  
CDignition
My Feedback: (9)
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Sarasota, FL
Posts: 703
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

wow...I wonder what the percentage is of old guys in the AMA that have Pacers...I'll bet it is much higher than you all think.

A Defibrillator and a pacemaker are the same thing..a small device implanted under the skin, that is connected to the heart and shocks the heart if it sees irregular beats.

We also are not talking "Pilot Liscense" regulations here...just guys flying toys around...and while these toys CAN be dangerous, ill bet the majority of folks reading this have crashed planes for other reasons than a health condition. Epliepsy is entireley diffrent also, unless it had been under control for some length of time (Seizure free for more than 2 years, etc).


I would let him fly...
CDignition is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 09:52 AM
  #13  
F106A
My Feedback: (2)
 
F106A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Clifton, NJ
Posts: 1,849
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

My question:
Who at AMA "advised them to do this", limit his ability to fly alone?
Think I'll give AMA a call and see what they say.
I'll report back if and when I get some info.

Kingwoodbarney,
there are NO AMA medical requirements to fly model aircraft, unless they just instituted one. Flying full scale is a completely different issue.
BRG,
Jon
F106A is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 10:40 AM
  #14  
F106A
My Feedback: (2)
 
F106A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Clifton, NJ
Posts: 1,849
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

Hi everyone,
Well, it looks like big brother is looking out for us after all.
I talked to Carl Maroney and he confirmed that the only way the member can be covered under the AMA’s insurance is under the Intro pilots program, which requires some one to be next to him while he’s flying.
Gee, wonder where this is covered in the AMA’s charter and how Due process fits into this whole scenario.
So, AMA is now in the medical evaluation area making medical evaluations/decisions. Trust me, it won’t be long until they start mandating vision and other medical requirements, especially since the average age of the AMA is 58, in order to be covered under their policy.
So, all you old timers, you better get your vision and cardiology reports together before next year’s renewal so Dr. Brown can review the info before he grants you a license.
I really feel bad for this guy, being singled out and having to ask someone to stand by him before he can fly. I wonder how DB would feel if he had to do it. D’oh, forgot, Dave doesn’t fly.
And people ask why AMA is losing members.
Here’s the answer: This stuff from AMA just never ends.
BRG,
Jon
F106A is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 11:14 AM
  #15  
Hossfly
 
Hossfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: New Caney, TX
Posts: 6,130
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

ORIGINAL: F106A

Hi everyone,
Well, it looks like big brother is looking out for us after all.
I talked to Jay Mealy and he confirmed that the only way the member can be covered under the AMA’s insurance is under the Intro pilots program, which requires some one to be next to him while he’s flying.
Gee, wonder where this is covered in the AMA’s charter and how Due process fits into this whole scenario.
So, AMA is now in the medical evaluation area making medical evaluations/decisions. Trust me, it won’t be long until they start mandating vision and other medical requirements, especially since the average age of the AMA is 58, in order to be covered under their policy.
So, all you old timers, you better get your vision and cardiology reports together before next year’s renewal so Dr. Brown can review the info before he grants you a license.
I really feel bad for this guy, being singled out and having to ask someone to stand by him before he can fly. I wonder how DB would feel if he had to do it. D’oh, forgot, Dave doesn’t fly.
And people ask why AMA is losing members.
Here’s the answer: This stuff from AMA just never ends.
BRG,
Jon
F106, You have just really hit the BIG ROOT of AMA's real problem. THERE ARE JUST TOO MANY PEOPLE UP THERE THAT HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE DOING AND/OR SAYING.

The Introductory Pilot Program is for one purpose and one purpose only: That purpose is to allow clubs to introduce non-AMA Member persons to RC flying with insurance coverage. ANY PERSON OPERATING UNDER THE DESIGNATED INTRO. PILOT PROGRAM IS LIMITED TO 30 DAYS AND ONLY ONE 30 DAY PERIOD PER INDIVIDUAL.

Just how Jay Mealy could come up with that B/S answer is beyond both a wild imagination and the purpose the program is specified for. It's ironic since just last night, I revised my Intro. Pilot notebook with all the current forms and the latest documents from the AMA Web Site. Methinks Mr. Mealy is, mildly, either confused with his terms or simply *uninformed* on the subject he so discussed.

This is so much in parallel with the Document 537 Fiasco of last year where terms and requirements were published that were very different to the original Motion, Voted and passed by the EC, when they themselves were ignorant of the Document 537. Therein lies AMA's major problem: Knee-jerk reactions to every little incident by an EC (BOD) that seldom investigates details prior to action, combined with a staff that doesn't really care a lot about other than building the bureaucracy can well result in one sad operation! [&o]
Hossfly is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 12:23 PM
  #16  
F106A
My Feedback: (2)
 
F106A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Clifton, NJ
Posts: 1,849
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

Hi everyone,
I talked to Carl Maroney, not Jay Mealy.
Sorry for the error.
Jon
F106A is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 01:33 PM
  #17  
Scar
My Feedback: (3)
 
Scar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Peoria Hts, Il. IL
Posts: 3,120
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

ORIGINAL: F106A

Hi everyone,
I talked to Carl Maroney, not Jay Mealy.
Sorry for the error.
Jon
There seem to be two points of view on this thread, plus a fair amount of debate over the AMA and where it stands (compounded by Carl, it would seem!)

I think, AMA support aside, the two sides are A and B:
A says it is unfair and illegitimate to restrict this person from flying RC,
B says it is reasonable to require this person to fly with a backup handy.

I don't recall hearing where the guy with the defib unit stands on this issue. Does he want help, or does he want to fly sans co-pilot?

As far as the AMA, you bet they have an interest in who flies. We don't ask blind people to guest fly, right?

And people with impaired limbs usually go to great lengths to get transmitters they can use - and they do that without AMA input.

But, again, where is the voice of the guy with the defibrillator? What does he say? I'm hearing a lot of anger, in this thread, and inadequate facts.

Somebody, help me. The president of one of my clubs has a defib unit, it went off at the opening of the last club meeting, scared heck out of him and the members, he wound up in the emergency room and it turns out his medication was off. I think I understand the function of the defib unit, and I'd like to know the facts about the person who is the subject of this thread.

Thanks,
Dave Olson
Scar is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 01:36 PM
  #18  
TexasAirBoss
My Feedback: (22)
 
TexasAirBoss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,972
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

Africanmike,

You asked for precedent. I gave you precedent. This is not considered discrimination.


CDignition,

No, a pacemaker and a defibrillator are indeed two different devices. A FAA medical may be attained with one and not the other. If the man only had a pacemaker and he was not allowed to fly, then this would indeed be UNPRECEDENTED and probably illegal.
TexasAirBoss is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 02:01 PM
  #19  
Jim Branaum
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Posts: 2,615
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

ORIGINAL: CDignition

wow...I wonder what the percentage is of old guys in the AMA that have Pacers...I'll bet it is much higher than you all think.

A Defibrillator and a pacemaker are the same thing..a small device implanted under the skin, that is connected to the heart and shocks the heart if it sees irregular beats.

SNIP
I do wish you would get your facts straight because a pacemaker and a Defibrillator are NOT the same at all. In fact, they are dramatically different devices for significantly different purposes. The only similarity is that they are under the skin and deal with the heart. Pacemakers don't have 'events'. My mother has had both and with later an 'event' can be a major issue.

That is NOT to say this guys was not programmed wrong, it happens frequently with new 'installations' and can be a bear to 'work out' with one or more EMS runs if the mistake is significant. However, it is a very serious piece of machinery and I reserve judgment as to the correctness of the BOD actions as each case is medically different (or so her cardiologist team told me).

The unfortunate thing is that being 'seizure free' for X years is meaningless because heart disease is degenerative with age.
Jim Branaum is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 02:49 PM
  #20  
F106A
My Feedback: (2)
 
F106A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Clifton, NJ
Posts: 1,849
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

Dave,
This is a much bigger issue than this one modeler.
The whole purpose of my call was to find out what document, and under what authority, can the AMA deny coverage due to a medical condition. That question was not answered.
If the AMA can deny coverage then that information should be known to the membership, not just the chosen few.
As I mentioned earlier, what are the procedures to defend one’s self against these allegations? Using your example of poor eyesight, which, IMHO is a much bigger problem throughout the membership, what happens when some field Nazi tells the president that an older member is flying and seems like he can’t see that well and needs glasses. What happens then? Does AMA mandate he get an eye test? Who evaluates it and what criteria are used? And on and on….
I hope the AMA has a good lawyer and MRO, because they’re heading down a steep, slippery slope on this one. A member who’s denied coverage and has the resources could sue AMA on a number of counts and possibly win a big award, along with all the publicity it would generate.
Now there’s a nightmare that DB should add to his long list of nightmares and start thinking about it!
BRG,
Jon
F106A is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 02:55 PM
  #21  
abel_pranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: St Augustine, FL,
Posts: 2,644
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

ORIGINAL: Jim Branaum


I do wish you would get your facts straight because a pacemaker and a Defibrillator are NOT the same at all. In fact, they are dramatically different devices for significantly different purposes. The only similarity is that they are under the skin and deal with the heart. Pacemakers don't have 'events'. My mother has had both and with later an 'event' can be a major issue.

That is NOT to say this guys was not programmed wrong, it happens frequently with new 'installations' and can be a bear to 'work out' with one or more EMS runs if the mistake is significant. However, it is a very serious piece of machinery and I reserve judgment as to the correctness of the BOD actions as each case is medically different (or so her cardiologist team told me).

The unfortunate thing is that being 'seizure free' for X years is meaningless because heart disease is degenerative with age.
Jim-

Does it matter to the real issue being discussed here that a pacemaker isn't the same thing as a defibrillator?

Most model airplanes eventually crash. We accept that, and that makes trying to force fit FAA rules governing rider-scale aircraft on operation of model aircraft just plain silly.

Some of the model airplane crashes are due to equipment failure.

I will reverse my opinion and judge the positions of Carl Moroney and the club BOD as appropriate in intent, though not in form, when I am convinced that the probability of a premature defibrillator activation is significantly greater than the probability of failure of a Made in PRC servo.

Abel

Italics indicate changes. Edited to change failure of the device to unintended activation, as there is no indication of failure
abel_pranger is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 03:00 PM
  #22  
fliers1
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Lockport, NY
Posts: 1,093
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

ORIGINAL: Hossfly


F106, You have just really hit the BIG ROOT of AMA's real problem. THERE ARE JUST TOO MANY PEOPLE UP THERE THAT HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE DOING AND/OR SAYING.
Several years ago, the day before I was to help give flights during the Grand Event, Carl Maroney said it was mandatory that I had to use a buddy-box to give his friend his first RC flight. It says on the back of the AMA application that a buddy-box was "recommended" not anything about it being mandatory. Mr. Maroney didn't think this was true, so he found out he was wrong when he made a call on his cell phone to someone at headquarters.

Take care,
CCR
fliers1 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 05:42 PM
  #23  
africanmike
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: sarasota, FL
Posts: 81
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

WOW Thanks everybody for their inputs. I was asked one question and that is if the member in question wants to fly solo and the answer is absolutely. I cannot speak for him directly but he appealed to the membership for help in getting his solo status back.
At our general meeting the motion was presented and seconded to put this to a vote but the BOD refused. It was obvious to me that the vote would of been almost unanomous in favour of giving this man back the right to fly solo.
africanmike is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 06:08 PM
  #24  
F106A
My Feedback: (2)
 
F106A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Clifton, NJ
Posts: 1,849
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

Well, I've cooled down a bit. I'm calling AMA tomorrow and see if I can get what, if any, medical exclusions are in the insurance policy that would deny coverage to an individual.
I'm sure I'll get the royal run around, but that's what I expect. They'll probably tell me it's secret info that they can't divulge.
Wait a minute!
I had a Top Secret-No Foreign clearance 30 years ago when I was in the AF, wonder if it's still good and if that's enough for the AMA.
Right.
I'll let everyone know what I find out.
BRG,
Jon

PS:I'm still wondering how the rest of the world is able to build and fly models without all the BS from their organizations.
I guess it will remain one of those great, unanswered questions for the ages.
F106A is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 06:34 PM
  #25  
CDignition
My Feedback: (9)
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Sarasota, FL
Posts: 703
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: AMA and Disabilities

Ok, all you armchair doctros,lol... I was wrong....BUT, you can have a pacemaker with Defribullator capabilities built into it (Defribulating pacemaker)..My wife is a Cardiac Critical care nurse, so I found out about it after the fact,lol...

He should be allowed to fly anyway...
CDignition is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service