DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
01-08-2005, 02:57 PM
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DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
A disagreement has started in a different thread.
ARE AMA MEMBERS WHO FLY ELECTRICS IN A PUBLIC PARK"" NOT SPECIFICALLY DESIGNATED AS A FLYING AREA"", COVERED BY THE AMA INSURANCE ?
Say an Electric FORMOSA flying fast in a Park gets a glitch and hits a child in the face causing the loss of an eye ?
Will the flyer be covered by AMA, homeowner's (if available) or by what ?
If AMA covers I am interested in knowing the SPECIFIC wording and location of the statement.
RCU member 1987tc - alleging 30 years in the sport, is advising beginners that they DO have AMA coverage when flying in Parks.
And I disagree
ARE AMA MEMBERS WHO FLY ELECTRICS IN A PUBLIC PARK"" NOT SPECIFICALLY DESIGNATED AS A FLYING AREA"", COVERED BY THE AMA INSURANCE ?
Say an Electric FORMOSA flying fast in a Park gets a glitch and hits a child in the face causing the loss of an eye ?
Will the flyer be covered by AMA, homeowner's (if available) or by what ?
If AMA covers I am interested in knowing the SPECIFIC wording and location of the statement.
RCU member 1987tc - alleging 30 years in the sport, is advising beginners that they DO have AMA coverage when flying in Parks.
And I disagree
01-08-2005, 03:23 PM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
You are going to get the same disagreement on this thead! There are so many loop holes in the insurance policies that you had better have another insurance just in case. You can get more information on the AMA web sight. You are taking a chance just flying in a public place where their is not liability on the property to cover Model flying. You can never tell what, when, why, or where something is going to happen.
01-08-2005, 03:48 PM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
As long as you comply with the R/C safety requirements and are not negligent, your covered. If you fly in a park that prohibits model flying, you are negligent.
The AMA can't possibly scribe everything that is covered. We do know that by not following the safety requirements and by being negligent, that you may not be covered.
AMA 6012
The AMA can't possibly scribe everything that is covered. We do know that by not following the safety requirements and by being negligent, that you may not be covered.
AMA 6012
01-09-2005, 12:53 AM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
Right. There is NO requirement set in the Safety Code that specifies anything about the flying field and that is the only exclusionary document. If it is followed, you are covered. However, as another pointed out if there is a local rule prohibiting the activity you are probably not covered as you would be operating outside the Safety Code.
01-09-2005, 01:30 AM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
When at a public park, it is difficult to establish a flight line, with all flying on one side and all people on the other. That is key, in my opinion.
01-09-2005, 11:35 AM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
I asked AMA Special services DIRECTLY if the safety code is a list of exculsions, I was told it is not.
The only claim not paid by the AMA was when a guy set out and suceeded in hitting a blimp. And as far as I can tell there is not a specific rule about hitting a blimp in the safety code.
Therefore, unless you are TRYING to hit the kid in the eye, you are covered.
The only claim not paid by the AMA was when a guy set out and suceeded in hitting a blimp. And as far as I can tell there is not a specific rule about hitting a blimp in the safety code.
Therefore, unless you are TRYING to hit the kid in the eye, you are covered.
01-09-2005, 11:56 AM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
There are a number of us that have stated the opinion that the Safety Code should be viewed as a list of exclusions to the insurance. I still hold that opinion. If you are flying somewhere it is legal, and you are flying in accordance with the Safety Code, I don't think anyone would dispute that you are covered.
On the other hand, if you are not observing the Safety Code, you MAY be covered. There are a lot of questions that have not been answered. If you were to hit someone with a plane that was equipped with a metal bladed prop, would you be covered? If you were flying a plane fueled with hydrazine, would you be covered? If you were flying over a little league game, intentionally, would you be covered?
In the case of the blimp, the claim was turned down because he was intentionally trying to hit the blimp. It was the intent that caused the claim to be turned down.
On the other hand, if you are not observing the Safety Code, you MAY be covered. There are a lot of questions that have not been answered. If you were to hit someone with a plane that was equipped with a metal bladed prop, would you be covered? If you were flying a plane fueled with hydrazine, would you be covered? If you were flying over a little league game, intentionally, would you be covered?
In the case of the blimp, the claim was turned down because he was intentionally trying to hit the blimp. It was the intent that caused the claim to be turned down.
01-09-2005, 09:10 PM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
J_R
The structure of a liability insurance policy doesn't have a statement of things that are covered. It uses language such as " to pay on behalf of the insured all sums legally obligated to pay for bodily injury and property damage arising out of..." , subject to policy terms, definitions and exclusions. In a nut shell, if it is not excluded, it is covered. It will also have to meet policy defintions such as "accident" or "occurrence" neither expected or intended from the standpoint of the insured, thus intentional acts are not covered.
You can argue ad infinitum if this is covered or that is covered, the answer is going to be based on an examination of facts of a specific situation. An insurance policy is not a theoretical instrument.
A safety code needs to be concise, easily understood by a broad segment and address certain kinds of behavior. Insurance policy exclusions are based on law, sometimes using awkward appearing language because that particular language has previously come from litigation and holds specific court interpretation. Not everyone will find reading insurance policy exclusions a handy way to equate to a safety code.
So, continue with whatever floats your boat.
There are a number of us that have stated the opinion that the Safety Code should be viewed as a list of exclusions to the insurance.
The structure of a liability insurance policy doesn't have a statement of things that are covered. It uses language such as " to pay on behalf of the insured all sums legally obligated to pay for bodily injury and property damage arising out of..." , subject to policy terms, definitions and exclusions. In a nut shell, if it is not excluded, it is covered. It will also have to meet policy defintions such as "accident" or "occurrence" neither expected or intended from the standpoint of the insured, thus intentional acts are not covered.
You can argue ad infinitum if this is covered or that is covered, the answer is going to be based on an examination of facts of a specific situation. An insurance policy is not a theoretical instrument.
A safety code needs to be concise, easily understood by a broad segment and address certain kinds of behavior. Insurance policy exclusions are based on law, sometimes using awkward appearing language because that particular language has previously come from litigation and holds specific court interpretation. Not everyone will find reading insurance policy exclusions a handy way to equate to a safety code.
So, continue with whatever floats your boat.
01-09-2005, 09:59 PM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
Jim Dines
Your assertions are absolutely correct. Having said that, if you look through this forum, you will find that the most discussed topic is insurance.
The AMA policy is a 60 page manuscript policy. It is not posted on the web site, in spite of repeated requests that it be placed there. The only way to get a copy is to request it and pay the $5 fee for the copy. I have yet to run across anyone that has done so.
The Safety Code, on the other hand, is a list of rules that are designed, if followed, to promote the safe operation of model aircraft. It was never designed as a list of exclusions, although certain Safety Code rules are based on exclusions in the insurance policy (i.e. not using metal bladed propellers or hydrazine).
Technically, the one document is not linked to the other. Recently, the Safety Code had become, what most consider, an ambiguous, bloated document. It was not easily understandable to the average person. Bob Underwood, and his committee re-wrote the Safety Code to make it an instrument the average modeler could understand. Not one based on insurance, but one based on safety.
Since some of the items in the Safety Code are based on exclusions to the insurance, and some are not, it has always seemed to me that the most prudent advice is to try to follow the Safety Code. While an individual may be excluding some actions he need not, under the insurance policy, it is a better tact to take than ignoring the Safety Code and potentially acting in such a manner where exclusions are engaged in.
If you have better realistic advice, I sure would like to see it. I mean that sincerely. Keep in mind that most members are not going to obtain a copy of the policy, nor are they going to solicit the opinion of a professional even if they do. As you point out, many are not going to understand the language even if they read it.
What really floats my boat would be to have the policy available on the web site and for everyone to have the ability to read and understand it. Ain’t gonna happen.
Your assertions are absolutely correct. Having said that, if you look through this forum, you will find that the most discussed topic is insurance.
The AMA policy is a 60 page manuscript policy. It is not posted on the web site, in spite of repeated requests that it be placed there. The only way to get a copy is to request it and pay the $5 fee for the copy. I have yet to run across anyone that has done so.
The Safety Code, on the other hand, is a list of rules that are designed, if followed, to promote the safe operation of model aircraft. It was never designed as a list of exclusions, although certain Safety Code rules are based on exclusions in the insurance policy (i.e. not using metal bladed propellers or hydrazine).
Technically, the one document is not linked to the other. Recently, the Safety Code had become, what most consider, an ambiguous, bloated document. It was not easily understandable to the average person. Bob Underwood, and his committee re-wrote the Safety Code to make it an instrument the average modeler could understand. Not one based on insurance, but one based on safety.
Since some of the items in the Safety Code are based on exclusions to the insurance, and some are not, it has always seemed to me that the most prudent advice is to try to follow the Safety Code. While an individual may be excluding some actions he need not, under the insurance policy, it is a better tact to take than ignoring the Safety Code and potentially acting in such a manner where exclusions are engaged in.
If you have better realistic advice, I sure would like to see it. I mean that sincerely. Keep in mind that most members are not going to obtain a copy of the policy, nor are they going to solicit the opinion of a professional even if they do. As you point out, many are not going to understand the language even if they read it.
What really floats my boat would be to have the policy available on the web site and for everyone to have the ability to read and understand it. Ain’t gonna happen.
01-10-2005, 06:33 AM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
J3,
Eight years ago, before I started slope flying at a National Park, I called the AMA to ask the same question. I was told that I was covered as long as I was not in violation of the safety code. I have been flying there ever since and I believe that I am still covered.
papermache
Eight years ago, before I started slope flying at a National Park, I called the AMA to ask the same question. I was told that I was covered as long as I was not in violation of the safety code. I have been flying there ever since and I believe that I am still covered.
papermache
01-21-2005, 05:44 PM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
BLIMP? Is there anything written or videos of this? Sounds interesting, what exactly happened? Sorry to be off subject but this sounds interesting.
Adam
Adam
01-21-2005, 09:40 PM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
I've been flying in a field with 20-25 guys who have been in the hobby, like me, for a long time, decades. Many are new as well. No one is AMA, or a "member", we just show up and fly in a huge field, with permission to be there. I decided after watching 6 planes in the air at once, and new ones landing recklessly, I better try a club and AMA. I wrote AMA about coverage, here is their reply.
Mr. R,
AMA has only denied one liability claim in all it's past history of offering liability coverage. This was the incident involving the Goodyear Blimp in California several years ago.
You are correct that the AMA policy is an excess policy, or secondary to any other applicable insurance the member may have. Please keep in mind that your AMA insurance will come into effect if your primary insurance denies a claim or it exceeds your policy limits.
Failure to comply with the safety code may endanger insurance coverage
There are several documents posted on our website www.modelaircraft.org you may want to review. By selecting the "Membership Services" button, then "AMA Documents (PDF)" you will find some informative information such as the following:
Document 500-B is an Incident Report Claim Summary for 2003 (we will be updating this for 2004 at a later time, so please check back for this update). Out of 177 closed claims listed, only 14 were denied. Out of the 14 denied, the majority were theft claims denied because there were no signs of forced entry.
Document 500-C is the 2003 AMA Annual Report. If you view the table "2003 Financial Insurance Summary" you will find the dollar amount AMA has paid for claims, including legal expenses / fees.
Document 500-D is the 2001 AMA Annual Report and it provides the same basic information for 2001 as document 500-C provides for 2003. We did not compile a report for 2002, however, we will soon be posting an update for 2004.
Document 500-E provides a four year loss summary on medical claims.
AMA works with a Third Party Administrator (TPA) who actually processes the claims. Depending on circumstances and / or conflicting statements, the TPA may decide to get a local investigator involved to gather additional information. However, this is not done to find a "loophole" to deny claims.
I trust this answers your questions and eliminates your concerns regarding the insurance benefits provided with your AMA membership. Should you have any further questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Sincerely,
Amy Wilson
Special Services Dept.
765.287.1256 ext. 252
[email protected]
Mr. R,
AMA has only denied one liability claim in all it's past history of offering liability coverage. This was the incident involving the Goodyear Blimp in California several years ago.
You are correct that the AMA policy is an excess policy, or secondary to any other applicable insurance the member may have. Please keep in mind that your AMA insurance will come into effect if your primary insurance denies a claim or it exceeds your policy limits.
Failure to comply with the safety code may endanger insurance coverage
There are several documents posted on our website www.modelaircraft.org you may want to review. By selecting the "Membership Services" button, then "AMA Documents (PDF)" you will find some informative information such as the following:
Document 500-B is an Incident Report Claim Summary for 2003 (we will be updating this for 2004 at a later time, so please check back for this update). Out of 177 closed claims listed, only 14 were denied. Out of the 14 denied, the majority were theft claims denied because there were no signs of forced entry.
Document 500-C is the 2003 AMA Annual Report. If you view the table "2003 Financial Insurance Summary" you will find the dollar amount AMA has paid for claims, including legal expenses / fees.
Document 500-D is the 2001 AMA Annual Report and it provides the same basic information for 2001 as document 500-C provides for 2003. We did not compile a report for 2002, however, we will soon be posting an update for 2004.
Document 500-E provides a four year loss summary on medical claims.
AMA works with a Third Party Administrator (TPA) who actually processes the claims. Depending on circumstances and / or conflicting statements, the TPA may decide to get a local investigator involved to gather additional information. However, this is not done to find a "loophole" to deny claims.
I trust this answers your questions and eliminates your concerns regarding the insurance benefits provided with your AMA membership. Should you have any further questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Sincerely,
Amy Wilson
Special Services Dept.
765.287.1256 ext. 252
[email protected]
01-21-2005, 10:31 PM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
First welcome to RCU and don't get scared off by us guy's that think we wrote the book. Most is for fun anthe rest is for changes we would like to see made!
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01-25-2005, 01:31 PM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
I fly at a local soccer complex a mile from my home I have full permission to be there. I fly 1/5gas warbirds, electric, heli, 4 stroke alcohol for over 20 years. my wife is disabled so I cannot be gone that long from home. I use a freq scanner and really have had no probs. My question is if I join AMA will they suppliment my homeowners if something happens I fly legal equipment and do not use banned materials in my planes I also do not fly there when kids are present I do get some folks watch me as it is by a main road.
This is not a sanctioned field and I cannot belong to a club due to the time it would take to be away from home at this place I can pack fly and be home in one hour. I would drive at least an hour round trip to the nearest field. So would it do me any good to join AMA i am not interested in competition or flying with other planes in the air I have never do that!
This is not a sanctioned field and I cannot belong to a club due to the time it would take to be away from home at this place I can pack fly and be home in one hour. I would drive at least an hour round trip to the nearest field. So would it do me any good to join AMA i am not interested in competition or flying with other planes in the air I have never do that!
01-25-2005, 03:47 PM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
Putting every thing aside what you read here. you can not go wrong joining AMA for $58.00 just the peace of mind to be covered if some thing does happen. Yes AMA is only a supplement to home owners or renters but If you do not have insurance you are still covered as long as you follow the rules and guidelines setforth by AMA. With your AMA card you get a copy of the information you need and the M.A. which some see uses for. Best to be with a club but when you can't just fly be safe and enjoy.
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01-25-2005, 04:06 PM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
Peace of mind...I really find my new card falling short on that order. There are these flyers who push common sense to the point of stupidity, flying over my car, behind me, standing too close to the runway, and when they deadstick, they rather float over my head by a foot or two and save their plane than ditch it, sparing my safety. Do I use the card as a compress when the spinner bashes in my head? I've chased off a few flyers literally after a few near misses, does the card cover their medical bills after I wipe the next idiot off his shoes? Obviously our "club" lacks organization, membership, and the designated lot is private property with verbal permission only to the general public. Legally, we're screwed if push comes to shove.
So I got the card, and drive 30 miles to a real club now, tomorrow is day one! I wonder if I'll be the stupid flyer now not meeting their standards? I think flyers need to recognize an 8 lb. plane traveling at 20 mph even attempting their landing is a potentially dangerous projectile that can kill. I've seen what it did to a truck bed, and I've seen many close calls.
AMA seems put off regularly by irresponsible flyers, who carry only $10,000 limits on their car insurance and never check the air in their tires until it's flat. We all could use more education about safety. Of course this is Florida, we can't even count votes here.
So I got the card, and drive 30 miles to a real club now, tomorrow is day one! I wonder if I'll be the stupid flyer now not meeting their standards? I think flyers need to recognize an 8 lb. plane traveling at 20 mph even attempting their landing is a potentially dangerous projectile that can kill. I've seen what it did to a truck bed, and I've seen many close calls.
AMA seems put off regularly by irresponsible flyers, who carry only $10,000 limits on their car insurance and never check the air in their tires until it's flat. We all could use more education about safety. Of course this is Florida, we can't even count votes here.
01-25-2005, 06:43 PM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
"We all could use more education about safety. Of course this is Florida, we can't even count votes here."
LOL, what part of florida are you? I'll be moving from NC to the Kissimee St. cloud area OR Daytona area, not sure of when im going though.
LOL, what part of florida are you? I'll be moving from NC to the Kissimee St. cloud area OR Daytona area, not sure of when im going though.
01-25-2005, 07:00 PM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
Kississimee is about 45 miles west of Melbourne, then go 10 miles south, you've found Palm Bay. I'm going to start flying in Sebastian and give up the Palm Bay compound. It's just too wild for me. Kississimee? Do you know what a redneck is? Traffic is awful there, and the lowest truck has a 2 feet lift kit.
01-25-2005, 11:27 PM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
lmaoI have already visited down there and you are right, lowest truck is a 2 foot lift kit! I flew at the St. cloud and ocala fields, St. Cloud wasd pathetic, i BARELY had enough room to land my 35% edge 540 bc at one end of the runway was severe bumps, and the other end was a 75 ft deep swamp!
The ocala field was one of the best fields i have ever flown at, plenty of room, paved and unpaved runway and a clean bathroom!!!
I would rather live near Daytona bc after i finish high school i could go to Emry Riddle!!! Maybe i might see ya sometime in the future! Are you into IMAC, if so are you going to the judging seminar the 29 and 30?
Adam
02-15-2005, 04:34 PM
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RE: DOES AMA COVER ...... ?
as far has homeowners insurance is concearned most all policies exclude aircraft liability. however most policies make an exception for model or hobby aircraft not designed to carry passengers or cargo. check with your agent it should be covered.
