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ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

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Old 01-30-2005, 01:12 PM
  #1  
Hossfly
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Default ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

AMA will no longer publish the AMA Competition Regulations (Rule Book)

From the AMA Web Site:

The 2005-2006 Competition Regulations are being posted section by section to this web site.

Page numbers are subject to change. Certain sections may contain parts of other sections of the Competition Regulations that are not yet posted. Please ignore these incomplete sections. Following this initial posting of the publication work will continue to be done to improve the product. Eventually each section will be a completely separate and properly formatted document.

Control Line Speed Control Line Racing Control Line Navy Carrier

Radio Control Combat Electric RC Soaring Indoor Free Flight

Radio Control Helicopter Radio Control Racing Radio Control Aerobatics

No printed version will be automatically mailed to the membership. Members unable to print from the web may obtain an unbound three-hole punched copy by sending a check for $2.50/ section to the AMA Competitions Department.
I have sent this message:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
AMA "RULE BOOK"

"No printed version will be automatically mailed to the membership. Members unable to print from the web may obtain an unbound three-hole punched copy by sending a check for $2.50/ section to the AMA Competitions Department"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TWIMC
Just to express my total displeasure at this operation. Again those people that truly support AMA thru competition and Event Directing have to get it in the shorts. That little book was always a welcome item in the flight-box or the pocket of Event Directors and for fireside reading every so often.

Rule Books have been a part of AMA since as long as I remember being in AMA and that is for about half a century.

It seems that a certain number -- based on previous distribution -- over the past 3-5 years could be printed and then First Come - First Served distribution over the life of the book.

I don't think this is anything to try to blame on the Competitions Department as that is the only Dept. in AMA that generally has its stuff together.

Horrace Cain
AMA L-93
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

May I suggest that you send such to your VP, with copies to DB and the ED.
Been a CD since 1963 and a Leader since 1964

Will miss the Rule Book. Actually a definite companion for the competition pilot whether for serious or for pleasure and club support. A definite place to find answers to numerous questions for those looking at starting competition.
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Old 01-30-2005, 01:53 PM
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

From the same page, the first entry :

2005-2006 Competition Regulations
Please note: Effective January 1, 2005 the web version of the Competition Regulations is the official version of the regulations.

Two things have driven this decision, IMHO :

1. The vast majority of AMA members don't participate in competitive events, don't use competition regs, and likely don't know they exist or don't care. Two of the three clubs in which I hold membership do not hold competitive events, or only hold class "C" restricted events, in which case the competition regs are inapplicable because the clubs make their own rules anyway. The third club holds limited competitive events, and for example cannot host a racing event due to noise issues and cannot host any event where flying cannot be precisely controlled, e.g. free flight events, because of a new 'starter-mansion subdivision' immediately adjacent to the flying site property line.

The three clubs have an aggregate membership approaching five hundred : a lot of modelers who have no need of a full copy of the competition regs or even a partial copy thereof. I'd be surprised if the percentage of competitive flyers in my neck of the woods is markedly different, on average, from other areas of the country.

2. The regulations' rate of change is apparently increasing, and I presume AMA had a problem getting recent changes into the hands of competitors. One of the fastest changing aspects of competition regs is the way competition reg changes come about. Not only are the regs undergoing constant changes, the change mechanism is undergoing change.

I think making the online version the official version essentially eliminates any arguments over what specifics are in effect at any given time.

No need to request a hard-copy from Muncie, print the thing yourself and only print the sections of interest.

Horace, you've beat the drum about making MA a profit center, and I don't disagree. If nothing else, getting MA closer to a profit making entity cannot be a bad thing.

This change to the way the competition regs are promulgated seems to me to be a valid way to reduce costs to the AMA and to the AMA membership as a whole.

Can't see why this is a bad thing, as it certainly seems to go right along with the notion of "user fees" : users of an asset should pay for the asset, rather than forcing the entire membership to pay for an asset.

$0.02
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Old 01-30-2005, 02:30 PM
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

ORIGINAL: the-plumber

From the same page, the first entry :

2005-2006 Competition Regulations
Please note: Effective January 1, 2005 the web version of the Competition Regulations is the official version of the regulations.
IMHO, one of the smarter things that the AMA has done. So few involved in competition events that it is a waste of money printing up hard copies. I wonder how many they have left laying around taking up space?
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Old 01-30-2005, 02:34 PM
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

AS someone who has sent in the application and taken the Quiz, having the guide online is good. Now I don't have to worry about having a old or outdated copy. The version on the web is current. So long as they maintain revision control, I am OK. SHould have a page or link to show the changes and what pages these changes are on. By doing this, we can see the eveolution of the guide and understand the impact of changes as they happen.
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Old 01-30-2005, 03:44 PM
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

I agree with Horrace.

As a matter of fact I will go a step further. The rules cycle is now two years. Rule books should be sent to every member. It’s no wonder competition is declining. How many newer members even realize the rulebook was/will be online? If you are a newbie and see an event advertised in MA by the event number, rather than a description, how are you going to know what the event is? Most people have enough problems finding an AMA application online. Have them online and in a book.

The decision to quit sending the rules to every member was a self-fulfilling action. As less rule books were sent, in order to save money, the faster competition declined. Now competition is minimal and so are those that know the rules or where to look for them.

Do any of you remember when you were younger, reading through the rules and looking at events, and wondering if you might be competitive in some area? Having a loose leaf notebook full of pages is not the same as the compact versions of the book from the past.

Just a thought. Do you suppose enough ads could have been sold to offset the costs of printing and mailing the rule book? Some commercial entities must be willing to have their name in front of 160,000 people for two years.
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Old 01-30-2005, 05:08 PM
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Red Scholefield
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

Stillman, Don Koranda, Dave Brown; Steve Kaluf

Gentlemen,

No longer distributing a hard copy (free) of the AMA Competitions
Regulations makes a lot of sense. I find having it in searchable format on
the AMA web page a real advantage when trying to look up something. Save a
copy on a lap top and have it available at the event when issues come up.
Glad to see we are moving along to take advantage of the "new tools" we
have been provided.
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Old 01-30-2005, 06:31 PM
  #7  
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

ORIGINAL: Red Scholefield

Stillman, Don Koranda, Dave Brown; Steve Kaluf

Gentlemen,

No longer distributing a hard copy (free) of the AMA Competitions
Regulations makes a lot of sense. I find having it in searchable format on
the AMA web page a real advantage when trying to look up something. Save a
copy on a lap top and have it available at the event when issues come up.
Glad to see we are moving along to take advantage of the "new tools" we
have been provided.
Red-

Is there any room on middle ground here? How about AMA providing a hard copy on request, at no additional cost? I don't compete, so it's really NOMB - if that's your position hang with it, I'm outta here in any case.

Abel
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Old 01-30-2005, 08:07 PM
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Red Scholefield
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

ORIGINAL: abel_pranger

ORIGINAL: Red Scholefield

Stillman, Don Koranda, Dave Brown; Steve Kaluf

Gentlemen,

No longer distributing a hard copy (free) of the AMA Competitions
Regulations makes a lot of sense.
Red-

Is there any room on middle ground here? How about AMA providing a hard copy on request, at no additional cost? I don't compete, so it's really NOMB - if that's your position hang with it, I'm outta here in any case.

Abel
$2.50 for hard copy. If they can't afford that they don't really want it that bad- and that's my position. [8D]
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Old 01-30-2005, 08:49 PM
  #9  
Bill Lee
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

Hey, Red! Remember when we had the big fight with AMA HQs about getting the rule book online in the first place. Talk about things going full circle!

Bill Lee
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Old 01-30-2005, 09:50 PM
  #10  
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

ORIGINAL: Red Scholefield

Stillman, Don Koranda, Dave Brown; Steve Kaluf

Gentlemen,

Save a copy on a lap top and have it available at the event when issues come up.
Glad to see we are moving along to take advantage of the "new tools" we
have been provided.
Actually, since it seems, every time I access the site for some info something has changed, for it to be of any real value an update every few minutes via satellite would be necessary...not a problem for those with the tools though. Hmmm... Unfortunately 99.9% of us do NOT have the tools...and that is some form of discrimination I am sure LOL.

A FREE current hard copy to any member on request and a mandatory NEW copy for clubs, with changes outlined, should be the order of the day IMO. Due to costs associated with rule changes, incentives to limit changes would tend to prevail and would be much more conducive to a greater cohesiveness in the competition environment.


Frankly the day when I need to consult with the AMA daily, weekly or even monthly to determine my course will be the day I quit! What amazes me is the subservient position that AMA desires of its members, is exactly why the AMA will implode. Of course many cannot see that…Oh well……………………………………… ………………..
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Old 01-30-2005, 11:53 PM
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Jim Branaum
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

SNIP

A FREE current hard copy to any member on request and a mandatory NEW copy for clubs, with changes outlined, should be the order of the day IMO. Due to costs associated with rule changes, incentives to limit changes would tend to prevail and would be much more conducive to a greater cohesiveness in the competition environment.


Frankly the day when I need to consult with the AMA daily, weekly or even monthly to determine my course will be the day I quit! What amazes me is the subservient position that AMA desires of its members, is exactly why the AMA will implode. Of course many cannot see that…Oh well……………………………………… ………………..
I was going to snip your 2nd paragraph also and then realize that the attitude shown there is similar to mine. Unfortunately it also is part of the reason D.H.S.Frank and I don't seem to agree on much. He seems to think we all should all eat, breath, sleep, and dream nothing but the great AMA.

As hard as Bill Lee and I and others fought to get the RB on line, I strongly support your second paragraph as it would encourage RB events more than they are even now (prior to the withdrawal of the printed copy).
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Old 01-31-2005, 06:59 AM
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

Taken from the AMA forum at different times.

[quote]ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

Actually, since it seems, every time I access the site for some info something has changed,

"The problem with the AMA is that they seem resistant to any change. The web site is stagnant!"

Due to costs associated with rule changes, incentives to limit changes would tend to prevail and would be much more conducive to a greater cohesiveness in the competition environment.

"We need more flexibility in changing rules to stay abrest of changing conditions and technology."

What amazes me is the subservient position that AMA desires of its members, is exactly why the AMA will implode.

What amazes me is the lack of involvement of the members - as evidenced in the last election, as is evidenced in participation at the local level. The resilience of the AMA to member apathy is exactly why it will survive.
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Old 01-31-2005, 08:45 AM
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

While we debate about the AMA providing free documentation. We forget that we also debate that the AMA dues $58 at present is too high.
If we continue to ask for free items from the AMA be ready and willing to accept a dues increase!

Lets keep our dues low. Say no to free stuff!!!!
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Old 01-31-2005, 09:50 AM
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

ORIGINAL: Geistware

While we debate about the AMA providing free documentation. We forget that we also debate that the AMA dues $58 at present is too high.
If we continue to ask for free items from the AMA be ready and willing to accept a dues increase!

Lets keep our dues low. Say no to free stuff!!!!

Raisnig dues and dropping services is NOT what this organization is supposed to be about. Rule Books are NOT free, even if our organization is too wasteful of the millions of dollars of income to be able to print them.
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Old 01-31-2005, 11:47 AM
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

ORIGINAL: Red Scholefield

Taken from the AMA forum at different times.

ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

Actually, since it seems, every time I access the site for some info something has changed,

"The problem with the AMA is that they seem resistant to any change. The web site is stagnant!"

Due to costs associated with rule changes, incentives to limit changes would tend to prevail and would be much more conducive to a greater cohesiveness in the competition environment.

"We need more flexibility in changing rules to stay abrest of changing conditions and technology."

What amazes me is the subservient position that AMA desires of its members, is exactly why the AMA will implode.

What amazes me is the lack of involvement of the members - as evidenced in the last election, as is evidenced in participation at the local level. The resilience of the AMA to member apathy is exactly why it will survive.
Wow Red you flatter me!

I really must get under your skin for you to have read through all my posts to come up with those out-of context responses and that improperly constructed reply. Hard to discern what you have said or who said what!

You should use your tools better. Why not post the links (good tool?) so the context of my statements could be evaluated properly?

Heck any petty person can take LITTLE (petty) snips of someone’s words and have the words construed to mean just about anything.

You ain't foolin nobody!

IMO with ALL factors considered the AMA is in a spin and unless THE proper changes are made (as opposed to just changes) it will auger in.
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Old 01-31-2005, 12:20 PM
  #16  
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

ORIGINAL: Red Scholefield

ORIGINAL: abel_pranger

//snip//
Red-

Is there any room on middle ground here? How about AMA providing a hard copy on request, at no additional cost? I don't compete, so it's really NOMB - if that's your position hang with it, I'm outta here in any case.

Abel
$2.50 for hard copy. If they can't afford that they don't really want it that bad- and that's my position. [8D]
Red if one reads the item that AMA advertises:
>>>>>>>
"No printed version will be automatically mailed to the membership. Members unable to print from the web may obtain an unbound three-hole punched copy by sending a check for $2.50/ section to the AMA Competitions Department"
<<<<<<<<<

There are EIGHTEEN (18) SECTIONS plus several miscell. info. items in the last RB (green). That makes a cost of FORTY FIVE - like in 45 - Yankee Dollars to get the entire manual from AMA in a LOOSE 3-Hole system. Even at the cost of ink for my HP 950, I may be able to print them off for that amount.

Personally I have no problem with a 5-10 $$ bill for the BOOK.
I did offer:
>>>>>>>>
"It seems that a certain number -- based on previous distribution -- over the past 3-5 years could be printed and then First Come - First Served distribution over the life of the book.
<<<<<<<<

Note: The "Previous Distribution" over the past several rule cycles has been either BY REQUEST and/or in the sanction package for AMA Rule Events, class A or larger. I think AMA could determine the average distribution per cycle, then offer such amount, maybe less 10-20%, on a first-come first-served basis at a fair price.

Then it could be determined just who really wants them and if a continuance is worth the effort in the next rules cycle.

Those that want a RB would have it at their own expense, those that spend their time on computers would also be happy, plus all the *frugal spenders* would not have to worry about their money being spent on those "nasty ol' contest people" that have built this sport into the hobby it is with all the fantastic and reliable equipment now available. [>:]

Yes, Able, there is a middle ground for those that are reasonably able to adjust from their "ME-ME-ME" attitude.

Concerning the on-line RB being the latest and best available, that is excellent. If a rule changes, it will be available. Great. On the other hand if one wants to try out an event, the basics are available in the workshop to plan for with the RB.

Personally -- BEWARE the sky is falling! -- I like JR's proposal best of all. However I can compromise to what I propose above.
Too bad for the POTENTIAL of maintaining the competitive environment of model aviation.
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Old 01-31-2005, 01:04 PM
  #17  
Geistware
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

Jim, in case I haven't said it plainly enough, I AGREE!!!!
ORIGINAL: Jim Branaum

ORIGINAL: Geistware

While we debate about the AMA providing free documentation. We forget that we also debate that the AMA dues $58 at present is too high.
If we continue to ask for free items from the AMA be ready and willing to accept a dues increase!

Lets keep our dues low. Say no to free stuff!!!!

Raisnig dues and dropping services is NOT what this organization is supposed to be about. Rule Books are NOT free, even if our organization is too wasteful of the millions of dollars of income to be able to print them.
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Old 01-31-2005, 03:21 PM
  #18  
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

O.K., let me make sure I have this straight:

They can publish a "special issue" of the AMA magazine and send it to every member to cover the nationals, but they can't provide a rule book to every member to encourage participating in the event? [sm=confused.gif] [sm=drowning.gif]
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Old 01-31-2005, 04:47 PM
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

ORIGINAL: P-51B

O.K., let me make sure I have this straight:

They can publish a "special issue" of the AMA magazine and send it to every member to cover the nationals, but they can't provide a rule book to every member to encourage participating in the event?
I missed the part where sending a rule book to every member makes 'em want to compete.

A newbie is gonna peruse all 18 sections and get the hots . . . er . . . get a Hotts ? Right. More likely he'll decide fiddling with his park flyer is enough with trying to get a drink from the fire hydrant called AMA.

Didn't we get to this point, where the percentage of sho-nuff' competition types is a small percentage of the total membership, during the eons when rule books were dumped in the mails en masse ?

No . . . wait . . .

I know.

Let's have a new modus for AMA . . . how's 'bout combining the folks who want to forego MA and get a dues reduction with the folks who don't want a copy of the competition regs in exchange for a dues reduction ?

Yeah, that's the ticket.

I can see it now : another thread that simply will not die complaining about how the cost of shipping out rules books makes the dues too high and there outta be an option to refuse the rule book and get a dues reduction.

Sure thing.

I still like the notion of user fees, and IMHO the users of competition regs can PAY FOR THE THINGS.

Put another way : the competition regs aren't what you might call a big seller, so the vast majority of AMA members are supposed to subsidize the few who thrive on competition ?
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Old 01-31-2005, 05:23 PM
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

ORIGINAL: P-51B

O.K., let me make sure I have this straight:

They can publish a "special issue" of the AMA magazine and send it to every member to cover the nationals, but they can't provide a rule book to every member to encourage participating in the event? [sm=confused.gif] [sm=drowning.gif]
Now that's a dart worthy of throwing. Kind of throws a new light on the subject. I'll back off on my stand. The complete rule books should be provided to all Cds that request one (in the old original handy format), and made available to anyone else at cost. I have to admit that $45 for the complete rule book is way out of line - missed the $2.50 PER SECTION.
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Old 01-31-2005, 05:24 PM
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

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Old 01-31-2005, 07:54 PM
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

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Old 02-15-2005, 11:31 AM
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Default RE: ATTN: AMA CDs & Competition Pilots.

ORIGINAL: Hossfly

AMA will no longer publish the AMA Competition Regulations (Rule Book)

//SNIP//

Just to bring an up date:

I sent:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Kaluf:


For the past several years your department's operations have been very impressive. Your web portion is very well organized and, IMO, all seems far too good to be true when compared to most other AMA administrative functions.

Now I request some special information:

Just who/how or for what reasons will the AMA no longer publish a complete "Rule-Book", the Competition Regulations? I know times are changing, I know that not everyone needs one, yet for some years now, not everyone gets one. I still think that a number could be purchased -- such number based on the past several years distribution numbers -- and then distributed at a nominal cost to cover the purchase expense.

Am I totally off base -- AGAIN?

Horrace Cain
AMA L-93
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. Steve Kaluf replied:

Mr. Cain, thank you for your kind comments, they are very much appreciated.

It was decided at the combined Contest Board Chairmen, Executive Council meeting that the web version of the rulebook would become the official version. This allows us to assure that the official copy is up to date at all times.

The past few years, each rulebook cycle we have been printing 30,000 copies of the book. In the ten years I've been here we have gone from distributing almost all of those copies to barely distributing any of them. This past cycle we had more than 20,000 copies left over. Due to that the decision was made to not commercially print the publication any longer. However, we will still make printed copies available. The book is now available section by section in either of two sizes for $2.50/section or the complete book is available for $5.00 in loose leaf format. The printing will be done in house here at HQ. I'll also entertain special format requests on a case by case basis. We will take about a $7.00 per book loss on the books at this price, but I feel that necessary to maintain the proper level of service to the membership.

To have a limited number printed outside in the old traditional format would be cost prohibitive. We knew, going into this new way of doing things that there would be a bump or two in the road. It is our plan to evaluate and readjust the program as we gain more experience doing it this way.

I sincerely appreciate your input in this as we go along.

Steve

Steve Kaluf
Technical Director
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My final reply:


In a message dated 2/14/2005 10:45:04 AM Central Standard Time, skaluf@modelaircraft.org writes:
>>>>>>>>>The book is now available section by section in either of two sizes for $2.50/section or the complete book is available for $5.00 in loose leaf format.<<<<<<<<<

Mr. Kaluf:

Hey, Thanks a lot for the information. Now while I do disagree with not having that Ol' Rule Book in me lil ol' pocket, I just guess I will have to go along with the flow. Drats!

I'm just most probably going to take you up on the offer above. I would be willing to pay more, however you made the deal. I can't print it for that price with the cost of ink for my machine. I can then update it from time to time.

Again thanks for the full story. I can live with it.

Horrace Cain
--------------------------------------------------------------

So there it is: A final Done-Deal.

Good News: a complete set of the RB for $5.00. Now that's a deal! [8D]
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Old 02-15-2005, 12:30 PM
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That should work for everyone. Now if they will just flag the changes in the on line versions so that we can print out and insert them into the book we buy for $5 it should make everyone fairly happy.
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