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AMA Rule change for electric flight

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Old 01-31-2005, 11:12 AM
  #1  
Red Scholefield
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Default AMA Rule change for electric flight

In looking over the AMA Competition Rules it would appear that some changes should be considered for electric flight events.

The following is a discussion that I've had with Steve Kaluf, AMA Technical Director
regarding this.

Gentlemen,

> Suggestion: Rather than trying to keep up with battery
> technology by specifically stating number of cells and the
> chemistry, thought should be given to changing a number of
> areas to limit the actual energy.
>
> Example: Any motor(s) allowed but the battery pack is limited
> to a maximum of seven (7) nickel cadmium cells.
> could be changed to: Any motor(s) allowed but the battery pack
> is limited to a maximum of 1000 watt-minutes (per the
> manufacturers rating - No. cells X nominal cell voltage X rated
> capacity. ) It will give the modeler the responsibility of
> figuring which technology best serves the event he will participate in.
>
> I suspect someone is already addressing this, but thought I
> would throw it in just in case.
>
> Red Scholefield AMA 951
> CD/Leader Member - District V

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Kaluf" <skaluf@modelaircraft.org>
To: "Red Scholefield" <redscho@bellsouth.net>; "Tony Stillman" <tony@amadistrict-v.org>
Cc: "Don Koranda" <dkoranda@modelaircraft.org>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 8:12 AM
Subject: RE: AMA CDs and Competition Fliers

>
> Red, how would CD's and modelers easily measure watt-minutes? Is it
> actually as easy as the formula you provide? If there any room for cheaters
> with this type of thing, especially if just using the formula? Please
> educate me!
>
> Should you feel strongly about this, we are now accepting proposals for the
> new rules change cycle. I know of no one else working along these lines.
> The ball may be in your court!
>
> Steve
>
> Steve Kaluf
> Technical Director

Steve ,

It is like a rule on wing area, chord times span = wing area or engine displacement, bore X stroke = displacement.
watt hours (or minutes) is the same, requiring that the number of cells multiplied by the nominal voltage for that chemistry multiplied by the rated capacity = watt hrs (or minutes). Yes, one could cheat by falsely stateing the rated capacity (voltage is established for a given chemistry - 1.25 for Ni-Cd/Ni-Mh 3.7 for lithium). One could cheat on motor displacement by boring out and stroking a given engine to increase its displacement over the rule limit. It is a lot easier to check the actual capacity on a battery pack than it is to tear down a motor and mike the internal dimensions. Rule could state that actual capacity if measured can not exceed rated capacity by some percent.

I'll check with some of the electric forums and see if there is any interest.

Red S.


>
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Old 02-02-2005, 10:46 AM
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Default RE: AMA Rule change for electric flight

I'll agree with your proposal. Battery technology has advanced so much in the past couple of years that the specification of "x-nicad cells" is outmoded. "Watt-minutes" is an readily measured quantity in the field. Good thinking.

--Bill (gasser who has discovered Lipos)
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Old 02-02-2005, 11:38 AM
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Red Scholefield
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Default RE: AMA Rule change for electric flight

ORIGINAL: BillHarris

I'll agree with your proposal. Battery technology has advanced so much in the past couple of years that the specification of "x-nicad cells" is outmoded. "Watt-minutes" is an readily measured quantity in the field. Good thinking.

--Bill (gasser who has discovered Lipos)
Others are concerned that it is too hard to manage. Going instead of a simple weight limit on the battery pack. Then that too has some drawbacks - the first one being that money wins.

It is not as simple as I first thought. A look at the FAI electric rules does give some clues - you can get to them via the AMA web site links.
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Old 02-02-2005, 02:12 PM
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Default RE: AMA Rule change for electric flight

Money wins, but that is what drives contests, unfortunately. He who can afford the $100, 6 ounce LiPo pack may have an advantage over the kid with the $10, 16 ounce NiCad pack. But the rules should level the playing field by specifying the battery capacity and let technology sort the rest out.

It's been years since I've looked at the FAI rules--let me poke around there.

--Bill
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Old 02-02-2005, 03:59 PM
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Default RE: AMA Rule change for electric flight

Competition rules changes should be left to those that both administrate a specific event and/or participate in that event.

There was a time when I felt the outsider could offer solutions for competition event needs, from a *consultant's* point of view. However I now think differently. There are far too many "Technicians", Do-Gooders", social planners, "$afety Experts", and such vermin in our daily lives, therefore I now firmly believe that in the sport of model aviation, the DOERS should determine how to DO things.
If a newbie wants to learn, then learn by the established rules, and when one of the active participants, then submit any perceived rules change proposals.

BTDT.
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Old 02-02-2005, 05:55 PM
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Default RE: AMA Rule change for electric flight

i agree with hoss on this one.

to the point that i also exclude past participants as well. ifn ya aint current, ya aint really got a clue.
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Old 02-02-2005, 06:09 PM
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Default RE: AMA Rule change for electric flight

That is also what the FAA says.
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Old 02-02-2005, 06:19 PM
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Default RE: AMA Rule change for electric flight

ORIGINAL: mongo

i agree with hoss on this one.

to the point that i also exclude past participants as well. ifn ya aint current, ya aint really got a clue.
I agree with Hoss on this one to the point that the Competition Dept should serve as a model for the rest of AMA.
Imagine, the competitors make their own rules. I know, democracy is pretty radical........I hope I don't get HUAC on my butt for that kind of talk.

Abel
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Old 02-09-2005, 12:49 PM
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Default RE: AMA Rule change for electric flight

I've been meaning to make a proposal as well...

I propose a new rule that limits rules changes to be submitted only by those who have competed in that event in a AMA sanctioned class A event in the past 3 years. (I think it's class A, don't have my rule book handy)

Why should someone who does not compete suggest rule changes?
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Old 02-09-2005, 02:01 PM
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Default RE: AMA Rule change for electric flight

Except for demonstrated safety issues (like the problem in pylon) that seems like a good idea. The problem then becomes WHO defines the issue as a safety problem.
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Old 02-09-2005, 03:11 PM
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Default RE: AMA Rule change for electric flight

ORIGINAL: Jim Branaum

Except for demonstrated safety issues (like the problem in pylon) that seems like a good idea. The problem then becomes WHO defines the issue as a safety problem.

Whoever is getting his butt beat all the time and needs a rule change to get on top.

Grabs his buddy Cont. Bd. member and submits an Immediate Change for Safety Purposes. My observations over the years seem to substantiate that theory.[>:]
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Old 02-09-2005, 03:28 PM
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Default RE: AMA Rule change for electric flight

ROFLOL! That seems to be more true than not.
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Old 02-09-2005, 03:58 PM
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Default RE: AMA Rule change for electric flight

I agree on the safety thing.

There is something to be said for changing rules often. When ever the rules change, it's the inovative, creative people who have the most competative equipment. Once everyone figures it out then it's back to $$$. But if rule changes obsolete everyones equipment then that can reduce participation.
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