merlm

Hello All,

I have seen the thread about the AMA dues increase and it made me wonder if there are any better ways to get low cost insurance coverage.

I have seen a link to United Modelers of America (http://www.unitedmodelers.com/) and it looks interesting.

I am wondering, if I join the UMA would still be able to go to other clubs (AMA clubs) fly-ins and have insurance coverage?

If the club I belong to changed to UMA would we be able to let AMA members come to our fly-ins?

Are there other assosiations that provide insurance, both for the individual and clubs?

Joss Stick

My Feedback: (1)

Several years ago a group called the Sport Flyers tried to be an alternative to the AMA and they are now gone thanks to the AMA.

I think if you are part of any other organization, the AMA will not allow you to participate in any of their sanctioned events and most AMA clubs will not allow you to fly at their fields. They pretty much have it sewn up.

As for the insurance, it is secondary coverage. Homeowners insurance is the primary insurer. I'm thinking seriously about renegade flying. Or not flying at all. $58 is kind of expensive for secondary insurance. If anyone can think of anything besides the frequencies that they have done, let me know.

So I guess to answer your question to the best of my ability, it's the AMA or nothing in their eyes.

ajcoholic

My Feedback: (10)

But for the $58 you get an awesome magazine too. I live in Canada and subscribe to Model Aviation just because it is such a well rounded magazine. I think it is way better than RCM or MAN.

Insurance, whether it be car, home or business, etc seems like "throwing your money away" untill you need it. We pay a similar fee to join MAAC (Canada's governing bodu for model aviation) and have the same dues increases, and related arguments. I think, relatively speaking, $60 is a small amount of $$ to pay compared to what the average modeller spends on the hobby - like a few jugs of fuel. Never really know why so many complain about it.

I am not at all trying to stir something up, you are entitled to complain about it all you want. I just cant think of quitting the hobby (been in it for 24 or 25 of my 32 years alive) because of a few dollars more a year to join.

AJC

MAJSteve

My Feedback: (-1)

We just got a new field - county "park" property even though we're the only people on it.

One of the things that swayed the decision was that the AMA was an ESTABLISHED organization with insurance coverage on both the field and the members. In itself, this would cause me to support them - they can support us.

2nd - the magazine. Good broad coverage that allows us to give away the magazines to interested people. It shows the spectrum of the hobby, the fact that its national and large (the section about different areas), the financial picture.

3rd - its the only recognized (for whatever reason) national organizations that can sanction events and has a reciprocal agreement with other organizations.

4th - It gives the hobby a history. Probably the only centralized repository of models (the museum), and its collection of documentation and writings about how the hobby has evolved.

bestrcpilot

Go find a field and go fly.
At $58 a year per person for The AMA NO WAY
What Do I get for $58.
I Fly at my own site that is covered by my Home Owners Insurance.
Do I own the Field? No
A couple of Guys and I lease it from the owner and We all have a rider from the Insurance company for the use of the land.
Do I compete at the Nationals? No.
So for $58 a year I get a magazine that cost $4.83 a issue, That has the same info that I can find on the Web.
When my Trailer got broke into at the last Fly-in I went to did the AMA cover the loss? No my Auto Insurance did.
When My son got hurt at a flying site (AMA needed to fly there) did the AMA cover the Doctor Bills? No the health Insurance that I have from work did.
So tell me why do I need the AMA?
SDY

ajcoholic

My Feedback: (10)

If you are content just flying at your own private field, and want to take the risks 100% then so be it. But, I couldnt imaging not attending at least 3 or 4 fun flys and maybe a contest for the fun, firendship and good times, never mind seeing 100's of different planes and stuff in action to give me new ideas on planes I'd like to get. Since all clubs are chartered by the AMA (likewise here in Canada MAAC) you are required to have either AMA or MAAC (goes both ways) membership!

It will take you a LOT more searching and time to find even half of what is in Model Aviation on the net, and that isnt the same as having a book you can read in bed, in fron tof the tv or on the can either!

Being part of the governing body also contributes to the ability to send members to world champs, having a library/museum, and others.

Just think where modelling would be if it wasnt for the AMA and the people behind it. Do you think we would have the clear frequencies we do, have the rights we do have that the AMA has fought for? Probably not. If a few dollars of my yearly dues helps a team attend a World Champs, or helps put on a NATS then I am for it 110% even if I cannot attend. The governing bodies for aeromodelling do a heck of a lot more than provide insurance coverage. A LOT more. If you are an active modeller and want to be one for a long time, then please join your respective organisation and support them! Yes this is my opinion and I dont believe everyone will share my views but I do feel strongly about this. Think about it!

AJC

bestrcpilot

AJC Said
Do you think we would have the clear frequencies we do,

IS this so?
Where I'm flying we have 6 Channels that we can not use, do to FCC licensed Transmitters that are between the channels that RCs uses( pagers, cell phone towers, Mobile phones the old style, local TV stations, and the DOH radios) And it is the FCC and not the AMA that give out frequencies.

I do go to Flyins ie. Joe Noll, T.O.C. and have more fun watching, then flying

AJC also said
Being part of the governing body also contributes to the ability to send members to world champs, having a library/museum, and others.

A library/museum that is a 10 to 12 hour drive for most of the AMA membership and when the AMA was asked if they the AMA would like to have the World Combat trophy and the planes that won the World Championships. the AMA answer was no.

And when The last time that I was at the Worlds The team members payed most of they own way with the help of Sponsers.
The best RC flyers in the world are getting together this Oct. it's called the T.O.C. and is the AMA putting this on?

The Best fly-in on the east coast in the USA is the Joe Noll was the AMA there? Yes this year but only to tell the people Running the fly-in what they could do and not do . No booth where a person could join or learn about the AMA.

When I got a copy of the AMA financial Report it had the same info that was in the AMA rag. Nowhere in it does it list the payments to the Pres.or any of the VP. Nor a breakdown of where the money is really going or the amount of money that was lost in the stock market.

SDY

merlm

I have to agree that I too enjoy going to Fly-Ins and seeing other planes and flying from other sites.

I don't have much use for the magazine tho. The parts that I am interested in usually only take a couple of minutes to read through.

I do agree that the AMA has helped bring modeling to where it is today and I don't have much of a problem with the dues increase but it looks like there would be some other organizations offering something similar.

I have to wonder why I need the AMA if my home owners or health insurance is going to have to pay out first.

It looks to me like the AMA insurance should pay out first, or why have it at all?

It's getting to the point that I could get a personal liability policy and be covered for anything I may do, flying, target shooting, archery, bar room brawls, you name it.

Just a thought.

The club I belong to has several members that we only see 3 0r 4 times a year. I 'm afraid that with the dues increase they may just drop out of the club and AMA. these members make up about 25% of our membership and the loss of there dues would mean an increase for the rest of our members to cover operating expenses.

The UMA looks inviting but if I won't be able to fly at other club's events I guess I will have to keep my AMA membership.

ajcoholic

My Feedback: (10)

bestrcpilot,
I am not sure how long you have been in the hobby, or if you read the magazines, but I remember back in the 1980's and early 90's when there was a LOT of worry and fuss that the FCC was not going to give the modellers their "bands" and when the new frequencies came about, it was in part to many hard working AMA (and other well known faces in modelling) people fighting for our rights and showing the FCC how big this hobby was. I remember reading a lot about it, worrying if we would be flying in a year or two or would it be an end of rc. Yes, there are some interference issues, mainly in larger centres with some channels. 6 out of over 50 aint bad! Its great we got the 50 to begin with! If no one lobbied for the general modeller, DO YOU THINK THE FCC WOULD HAVE GIVEN US OUR FREQ. BAND?? NO WAY! Thank the AMA every time you use your radio and dont get shot down by some cell phone or CB.

The fact the AMA archives exist, are to MANY modellers (who actually give a care about the vast and interesting history of aeromodelling) very VERY important. We do not want to forget our history, and if you ever need some info its there.

I just cant understand how much some of you guys are against the organisation. Its for the best that all modellers belong to one group to stay strong. Once again, thats my opinion, and obviously you dissagree. But think where we would be in the hobby as a whole, if everyone kept to themselves, flew at their own little fields and the respective disciplines (all the different FF, cl, rc, etc) had no means to share information. Not something I would like to imagine.

Andrew

bestrcpilot

Andrew
I have been in the Hobby-sport from 1968 I started has a young man.
I have seen the game played about the frequencies in the 60 and the late eighty's but the time that you are talking about was not a change of frequencies, but a tighten up of the frequencies that we used ie.. the old wide band Txs to the new narrow bands. We are still in the same frequency range that we RC have had since the mid 60s. And the Reason that Rc had to go to narrow band Txs was so the FCC could sell the Right to use the frequency between the Channels that RCs use. And The frequency that The FCC would like us to use are in the 6 meter range as this is the frequency that the FCC has set aside for Remote Control not in the 72 megahertz band.

As this thread was started about the Dues increase, A 20% increase for the reason that the AMA stated was to cover the cost increase of Insurance since 9-11 .
My home ones did go up 8% car Insurance up 2% .
I for one would like to see the real reason for the 20% increase.
As The AMA financial Report does not give the amount the Insurance cost so We the members have no way for knowing the real cost.
With the CEO of large company ripping off the stock holders and cooking the books, then taking a golden parachute and leaving the company in chapter 13. Just look at the news of late.
I for one would like to see the real books from the AMA for a change.
And why does a friend form North of the Border care so for the AMA?

SDY

Sky-jacker

AJC,
I agree with everything you say, it it were not for the AMA we would not be flying our modles at all today. 911 grounded Rc flying in some areas and the AMA got that cleared for us to enjoy this hobby as we are used to it today.
Maybe I read the report from D Brown wrong but I read that the dues increase was for a period of time greater than 1 year ( hopefully 5 years).
also I don't think you can buy homeowners insurance for a little over 4.00 a month.
I flew in the desert in AZ for years because I did not want to join a club. I did belong to AMA and still do. I went to the fun flys and float flys and the thing I missed most was the friendship and good times I had at the club meeting and flying at the field.
BRCP.
I was around during the time you referred to when we were about to lose all of the frequency's we had in the 60's. I don't think that we could have survived to fly today if it were not for the AMA. Yes, FCC wanted the freq narrow banded for the reasons you say, but we were shooting each other down with the freq we had and the sloppy TX & RX of the day. I agree with you that all is not perfect but it is all we have and I am,IMHO, happy with the situation as it is now. I go to fun flys and other events.
BYTW have you asked for a copy of the financial report? As a non profit organization you are entitled to one I think, A report is published in MA every year. And there is a column devoted to finances in MA from time to time.
Also, you may not know that a lot of the folks North of the border ( we lovingly call them Snow Birds )are dual members in MAAC and AMA and belong to the club in the areas where they visit during the winter and contribute to the club and local economy.
There are a lot of folks out there that are sour on AMA and I can't figure out why. Maybe you all should contact your area AVP for resolution to your problems, or AMA HQ.
I am not putting anyone down just my opinions.
GEF


FLY HAPPY AND OFTEN

Volfy

My Feedback: (23)

Try not to give the AMA too much credit on the frequencies. FCC didn't give us the 72MHz band. We the RCers are nowhere near the primary users of the band. In fact, we only exist as a mere sidenote in the FCC band plan.

While I wouldn't think of quiting the hobby or flying without insurance - unless I'm rich enough to own my own flying field - I do have beef with the way AMA ruthlessly crushed the Sport Flyers. AMA acts like and is a monopoly. SO they raise the rates, what alternative do we the RCers have? None.

As far as I'm concern, the dues I pay buys me supplemental insurance - that's it! The magazine sucks; I'm only interested in RC and don't much care for free flight or CL, so only a few pages interest me. I don't ever compete. And I rarely attend Fun Flies at other clubs, except maybe as spectators. I'm, well, a regular sport flyer, and would have been perfectly happy with the SFA if only AMA would allow some friendly competition.

Yes, I do have an AMA card, but I'm far from being a "proud member".

ajcoholic

My Feedback: (10)

I care greatly for the organisations that head our great hobby. I strongly believe if it were not for the AMA & MAAC in North America, we would never have gotten "this far" - imagine what a bunch of loner, unorganised rc'rs that have no interest in any other discipline (ff, cl) that fly alone at their own private fields could do individually? NOTHING! Who is going to listen to ME or YOU, "joe nobody" who says to some government agency "hey, you cant take away my flying site" ,etc. We as a group need to ultimately STAY as a united group. Period! More voices allways have more pull and clout when it comes to getting things done. If for that one reason only, join the AMA or MAAC and contribute to modelling as a whole.

As for the increase in insurance, I own/run a custom cabinet business, and my shop insurance went through the roof this year (about a 25% increase) as did most of the contractors and suppliers I deal with and speak to. My broker said it is definitely due to 9-11.

Yes, this thread was about the 20% increase and it has a direct correlation to the fellows that complain about joining at all, at any price. If you really hate the AMA, its functions, the awesome mag it puts out, and the evil Dave Brown - DONT RENEW and have fun being a loner.

Thats all I can say...

Andrew Coholic
MAAC 26287 and damn proud of it!

YNOT

You floks re in the wrong hobby to be complaining bout $58 bucks. If you cannot fford $58.00 then you should look into other hobbies.

Sky-jacker

Volfy,
I guess that I'm just confused, if the FCC did not allocate us the freq's we have, then who did??? It's their ballfield. Neither did they "sell " the ones between ours as it was stated in another post. I am also positive that we would not have the freq's we have today if it were not for the AMA and the hard work by many, most of whom were volunteers. So who should we give credit to for where we are today?? To those folks who do nothing but ***** about what is wrong with the current group of leaders. The way I see it is if you don't like the system you have two choices, make an effort to change it for the better or get out. Please don't take that statement in a negative way , it is a fact of life that people ***** about everything and few make an honest effort to make changes.
I do not know the whole story reguarding the SFA, I don't think that anyone does except those involved in the litigation. I read all of the information "available to the public" and I made no decision as to who was wrong or right "because I did not have all the information".
If anything I have said offends you I'm sorry, however I am an AMA member and will be for a long time. I support the leadership and will continue to do so. Even tho I'm not interested in all of the different modeling venues presented in MA I can not imagine a mag devoted to each single one.
For 100.00 a year I will join. 8.33 a month ain't bad (the mag alone is 3.50 or so)and I read only what I like.
I have been flying since 1962 and I have seen many changes in this hobby/sport both in AMA and teh manufactures, some good some bad, but we have surived. and with the help of those folks we will be able to continue diong so no matter if you own your ouw field or if you are a dyed in the wool competitor.
GEF



FLY HAPPY

Joss Stick

My Feedback: (1)

Sky-Jacker,

The FCC does sell frequencies. Go to http://wireless.fcc.gov/auctions/

You will see several auctions that are taking place for the sale of frequencies.

Sky-jacker

HI JOSS STICK,
Thanks for pointing that out, I was refering to the era prior to 1994 when AMA was fighting for our freqs. Thanks for that web site it looks interesting I Book Marked and will check later.
GEF

FLY HAPPY, FLY OFTEN

The most reasuring words I can hear after a beautiful landing approach just prior to touch down...HEY STUPID YOURE UPSIDE DOWN.. damn Dislexia !

Roby

All have valid points, anybody out there contact AMA or
are we just going to beat this to death between ourselves?

I'm not thrilled about the increase , I'm not convinced it's
required, but what are my/our choices ? Not many. I will pay
my dues and fly just like the 170,000 other members will .

I don't plan to vent my opinion to the AMA , it won't do any
good . It's already cast in concrete and not worth the effort
of swimming up stream.

AMA knew they were going to get allot of heat on this but ,
"No choices means pay their price "............ and it went up.

Regards
Roby

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

You know something? I get really sick and tired about reading the baldfaced LIES that keep appearing on the internet about "AMA crushing SFA".
There is NOT ONE WORD OF TRUTH TO THAT.
It's a LIE.

SFA sued AMA for "hindering competition" because AMA would not provide SFA with a complete membership roster so SFA could try to sell them their BOGUS insurance. SFA LOST the lawsuit. AMA sued to recover the $187,000 of OUR money that had been spent defending themselves against SFA's lawsuit and WON. When it came time for SFA to pay up, they just went bankrupt, owing a lot of people a lot of money.
If you knew what SFA was really about, and Elliot Janss who started it, and how he operated, what kind of guy he was, you would not be talking such absurd nonsense about SFA.

Show me ONE person who ever got an insurance payment from SFA. One.

You can hate the AMA for whatever reason you like, but I really do wish that people would stop spreading the same old B.S. which they read on the internet around. If AMA is so bad, the truth ought to be enough.

Joss Stick

My Feedback: (1)

Sorry .. I guess I was misinformed. You're right, I can't name anyone who collected from an SFA claim. Come to think of it, I don't know anyone who has collected from AMA insurance either.

Merlm, to answer your question. There are alternatives out there, but even they restrict activities across party lines. UMA /AMA their about alike.

Guess I'm in the wrong hobby.

See ya!

mvigod

Is this true? If so I agree that a disclosure of what portion of member dues go towards insurance at the AMA. Also if you don't want the magazine why are they forcing it on people? It used to be that you could just get insurance and pay less and opt out of getting the magazine. Now they force it on you.

Why do they force it on each member? Well...probably for advertisers...they want to up their subscriber numbers to increase magazine ad revenue plus boost the overall cost per member perhaps with a higher perceived value.

Normally I don't get involved in political stuff and certainly not in AMA issues but a few things that they have done lately make me question if things are being run quite as good or efficient as they should be.

If I had to hazard a guess I would if they would let those of us who do not want the magazine to be able to opt out and then cut unecessary expenses (like the ama guys expense budget to travel to meets and stuff) that the dues could land around $30 per member annually. This is of course my educated speculation and one man's opinion.

Also...so far this thread seems to be going along pretty well so far without personal attacks and such so please continue to keep the discussion friendly as I'd like to keep it open. It is an interesting topic for many I'm sure.

GrnBrt

My Feedback: (5)

Well since the advertising issue was brought up let me add this to it. I have advertised in R/CReport and was going to advertise in Model Aviation, but WOW when I saw the cost I backed out real fast. They are making some good bucks for those ads you see and way more then what I paid at RCR. Now back to our regularly scheduled program!

Dave Bowles

My Feedback: (7)

At one time the Mag. was optional, but the AMA still has to send out the news letters , the amount of our dues going toward the Mag. are probibly very small and less expensive than sending out seperatly printed news letters and less work to keep track of . It is called Model Aviation for a reason , because it covers almost all areas not just R/C. If you don't like to learn from other aspects of this hobby thats your loss. I buy the other Mags. every once in a while and I am not impressed with the content any more or less than with MA , In fact if anything several of the others look more like a R/C catolog than a Mag. AMA is not an organization that specificly benifets all individuals , It does however give our hobby a little Back Bone and helps us look more like Model Aviators instead of kids with toys.

I think sone folks need to themselves the question, Are we better off with or without AMA ?

If we are better off without out it them then we will all not renew, let our organization go under and see what it gets us.

mvigod

Dave,

Why do they "have to" send out those newsletters? Who said this is required? At a cost of $15-$25 a year per person why shouldn't those who do not want it be allowed to waive it and pay less on their dues?

It's not that they are missing out on other parts of aviation. I have zero interest personally in free flight or control line and could care less if I missed out on that. I'm interested in RC and if I want a magazine I'll subscribe to it but I don't want it forced down my throat just because my insurance company wants me to see it.

How would everyone like if their homeowners insurance tacked on $30 per year to their premium just so they could send them a monthly "homeowners" magazine filled with stuff and ads related to homeowners. It's a joke.

Even if the newsletter was mandatory to send for some unknown reason (this reason could be changed simply by a vote by the way) they could have you waive it and you can get the newsletter info online. I would even host if for free for them...how's that!

A gentleman above said something above about if you can't pay the $58 you shouldn't be in the hobby. I don't think it's the money for most people but rather the point of it all. I'll use a hypothetical example to illustrate. What if I told you that $30 of your dues goes to the magazine you may not want. $15 for actual insurance and the last $13 for travel expenses for ama personnel, salaries, building expense and administrative expenses? I'm sure many would not be thrilled...it's just the point of it rather than the dollars.


My opinion is that one should have a choice. If the AMA does not give their paying subscribers a choice in certain matters when they should be doing so than it is simply wrong.

If somebody can audit their books and breakdown where all the member dues are going (along with all the interest on the money each year) I for one would love to see it. The AMA should run a lean & meain organization strictly with it's policy holders in mind, period. What is the true cost to insure a policyholder?

I'm sure they have done many things of benefit over time but one needs to be watchful that things continue to stay on track. If they are an insurance company where should they draw the line on the activities that they engage in commercially? Perhaps they should spin off an insurance division for just those wanting coverage and keep the contest coordination and frequency lobbying in another division.

There will be more things that the AMA takes on over time which I'm sure many of you will not like if things are not kept in check and voices not heard.

bestrcpilot

Marc is right. It is not the money, it is the fact that we send money to the AMA and Really have no way of knowing where or for what this money is being spent on.

Any one can get the AMA financial Report by sending a Email to [email protected] along with $5.
But all this will get you is the same Report that is in the AMA Rag.
Try it for yourself.

And as one poster stated yes the AMA did help get "channels" that we fly on. But this was in the Past and as the Saying goes What have they done for us lately?

After 9-11 when all Air Travel was closed down. Was the AMA or the members told if we could or could not fly by anyone? When the air travel out by Salt lake was closed down was the AMA told about this?

SDY