hunter_alexander

My Feedback: (1)

OK,

I know that I will probably stir up a hornets nest, but I am just curious. I dont know all the ins and outs of everything, so I am figuring that maybe someone here can steer me straight.

Why is it that you can buy RC boats, cars, tanks and other things, not have to join a national orginization, and go run your stuff, but with airplanes, you have to join the ama to fly?

From what I have read, (and this is my opinion, I could be wrong, hence my posting this) all the AMA does is send me a magazine that I dont care to read, insures me, but makes me use my homeowners insurance first if anything happens, then maybe they will cover after that, and when I pay my 60 some dollars, then I have the PRIVELAGE to fly at some club (after I join their club).

Granted, I know that not everyone has an area big enough to fly at, hence having clubs. But I dont see rc cars or boats having to pay just to say that they belong to a national organization and then go to a club and pay more just to run their stuff.

Why was the AMA started to begin with?

Why is it that if I am going to be using my homeowners insurance to begin with, why cant I just join a club, sign a form stating that I will fly carefully, and fly. Why is it that I have to belong to the AMA just to fly?

If I ABSOLUTELY MUST join the AMA, can I at least opt out of getting the magazine and get a cheaper membership rate for AMA?

I know that 60? dollars isnt that much when it comes down to it, but I hate joining an organization funded by a need that I dont think is really there, other than guys and girls who want to run some organization and get paid for it.

I know that many of you will try to bash me for this. If you are one of those, I feel sorry that you dont have the ability to see from another point of view. These are legitimate questions that I just dont have the answers to, and it makes me question why the AMA exists.

Thanks for your input.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

I am sure others will give you their reasons.

I think you need AMA, IF you need an organized field to fly at. The reason is, most organized fields require insurance, which the AMA can provide through an AMA chartered club. This is different that your personal AMA insurance coverage, the one secondary to your homowners.

Now you might ask "why do I need an organized field"?...good question, you might not.

But if you are flying in a park, and you are one of the first that has flown there, there is a good chance it will be abolished once someone becomes aware of what you are doing.....same with a schoolyard or a private field.....eventually there is a good chance more people will show up, or some other "do gooder" will see all the fun you are having and decide to put a stop to it....unfortunately it turns out it is not hard for someone to "put a stop to it"

So in order to have a field that can withstand the test of time and the "do gooders", many find an AMA chatered club is the best way to go.

hunter_alexander

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks for the reply. I didnt know that about chartered clubs. I guess that makes sense. This is why I asked.

Anyone else have anything to add?

hunter_alexander

My Feedback: (1)

Actually, can you expand on the chartered club? How is this different from a non chartered club? I guess I understand the insurance reason for a flying field, but cant a owner just have a insurance policy for the field (which a part of that being included in the dues) and not be part of the AMA?

I guess that part eludes me.

Thanks again

hunter_alexander

My Feedback: (1)

I guess what I am getting at, is cant we just get away from having to join multiple organizations just to have fun?

J_R

Somewhere along the way, you have developed the wrong impression. AMA membership is not required to be involved with aero modeling. AMA membership is required if you want to fly at an AMA chartered club site, or at an AMA sanctioned event (generally fun-flys or competitive competitions). If you have some place to fly, there is nothing holding you back from doing so, other than any legal prohibitions.

Initally, the AMA was an organization to advance model aviation.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

Sure, if you can get access to a field to fly at you can fly all you want. It is no differnet than the car guys, except for every place you can fly even a semi large plane there are probabaly 500-1000 places you can drive a car.

And if 2 different people are operating cars around the corner fron each other and do not know it, the worst thing that happens to you car is that it hits a curb, the airplane is a different story.

All I am saying is that, in the real world, it is VERY hard to get a multi million dollar insurance policy for the site owner at anything near what we have to pay to the AMA under the charter club system.

the-plumber

I'll take a stab at the parts not already responded to by others . . .

Yes, you are quite "wrong" in thinking that the only thing AMA does is send out magazines, 'sell' secondary insurance, and 'make' you join their club. AMA does, and has done over the decades, a great many things to promote model aviation in the U.S. and elsewhere. I won't waste the bandwidth to list all the good things AMA - as an organization - contributes to this lunatic hobby because it would go on for a couple of pages even if I single-spaced the whole list. Your perception, however developed, is highly skewed toward the negative and would seem to have been developed by reading the various rants and pi$$--- contests in this and other on-line forums.

I would suggest that you pop for the introductory membership deal at https://www.modelaircraft.org/trialmemberapp.aspx

Cost you every bit of twenty bucks, and it's a one-time deal. If you did nothing else but prowl the AMA web site and read the three copies of Model Aviation you would receive as part of that trial membership, you should get a basic idea of just what it is that AMA actually does for it's members and for model aviation.

In a nutshell, the singular distinction between rc cars and boats vis a vis their not 'needing' a national organization versus model aviation enthusiasts 'needing' a national organization is that rc cars and boats only "play" in a two-axis world - those craft don't have elevators (ignoring rc submarines, of course). Model aircraft have an irritating habit of coming down where and when least expected, and that is _the_ reason model aviation lunatics banded together a very long time ago (1936) to foster the hobby and to have a 'single voice' with with to support and defend the hobby.

Rc cars don't generally crash through the roof of a house, and rc boats don't usually run into people - model aircraft do those things even though we certainly would prefer that they do not, and it is because of those unfortunate accidents that AMA - as we know it today - exists.

I'm not sure the extant explanations regarding chartered clubs was sufficient to answer your question, so I'll try a different tack -

An AMA chartered club is a club in which all members are also AMA members, or, to gain chartered club status with AMA, a club must prove that all it's members are AMA members.
You must have AMA membership to join such a club, period.

A club does not need to be chartered to have a flying site or to have club members who are also AMA members; such a club would simply not hold an AMA charter. There are a number of benefits available to chartered clubs, not the least of which are sanctioning of events and flying site insurance for the land owner. Those, and other benefits, do not accrue to non-chartered clubs.

You could certainly join a non-chartered club without AMA membership, just as an AMA member could also join a non-chartered club. The difference is that the AMA member would enjoy the secondary insurance provided by AMA as part of his membership benefits, whereas the non-AMA member is quite literally on his own regarding insurance.

An AMA member is covered by AMA insurance irrespective of his club affiliations or where he chooses to fly his models.

Not at present, but I hear 'they' are working on that.

That may be another outsider misconception - that the AMA officials are paid. The AMA officials are not paid, they are volunteers, and by officials I mean the folks who make the rules.

There is of course a headquarters staff which is by and large overworked and which still manages to do a pretty terrific job of supporting the membership, and of course that staff is paid - it's a 40-hour-a-week job, and simply cannot be done by part-time volunteers.

I would submit that the negative mind set regarding AMA and it's past and present contributions to U.S. and world-wide aeromodeling is largely due to mis-stated and mis-understood comments made here and elsewhere on-line. I would submit that there are in actuality very few AMA members who are 'mad at AMA', rather they are 'mad' at the way AMA has been lead over the past decade or so. The 2004 AMA elections resulted in a fairly important shift in the make-up of the AMA Executive Council, and would seem to portend a change in the way AMA 'does business'.

I would submit that few AMA members would claim that AMA doesn't support model aviation. I can also assure you that a great many of us, even the ones who seem to be 'on the attack' a goodly bit of the time, have done what we can to bring about change in the way AMA as an organization goes about the business of promoting model aviation.

Lastly, if AMA did nothing but sell magazines and secondary insurance, I for one most certainly would not have spent the considerable sum to obtain Life Membership, and trust me when I say I'll never 'break even' on that deal no matter how long I live.

abel_pranger

Hunter-
No disagreement with the other guys that replied - both are knowledgeable and have given good straight answers. I'll just try to reply to this specific question.
I'm sure that some insurance company could be found to provide insurance for the field (I presume you mean the owner of the field), but you would surely have to do some legwork to find it, and the cost would likely be high, not because of the risk, but because of the admin costs associated with putting together a specialized policy. Try an example: pick a number for the size of the group your field will accommodate, and multiply that by 60 bucks (just an estimate of $58 per member cost of individual AMA membership plus a couple of bucks each toward AMA charter and insurance for the owner of the field). Say it's 50 members - then your target is to get the required insurance for something less than $3000, hopefully substantially less as there would be no individual coverage provided for those that do not homeowner's and/or an umbrella policy. Doable? Probably so, but I like most haven't tried it, so you're on your own.
Of course you might find a flying site where the property owner doesn't require you to provide liability coverage for your activity. A lot of potential flying sites are on property owned by public entities, and some do not require you to have insurance to cover them. In CA for example, public entities can no longer be sued for liability by users of property under their domain, unless they allow themselves to be sued (though not all local agencies seem to be aware of this yet). The most visible impact of this change in law (it's a few years old now) is skateboard pools popping up all over the place in public parks - they totally passe when the public entities were the target of 'deep pocket' lawsuit vultures. I have flown in state and national parks and on BLM land under the watch of rangers, with no inquiries yet regarding insurance. Also belonged to a club on private property (a rock quarry) where the owner let be known off the record that he preferred deniability that we were using it to having us provide insurance. I have considered, but not actually done this: offer to pay the premium for an umbrella policy for say $2M as a condition for use of someone's property. It would give him the advantage of being covered for general liability rather just for what might be incurred as a result of a model flying incident, but then might be cancelled if the issuing company learned of our use of the property. Might work indefinitly if a low enough profile can be maintained. Dunno, as I said, haven't tried it yet.
There are opportunities to fly outside of the AMA chartered club venue. To give you an idea of how many such venues exist if you seek them out, consider this: about half of AMA's own members do not belong to a chartered club. Don't think they are all not flying.

Abel

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

Very true and well said.

I fly at one of the biggest airparks in the country, and no AMA is required at all.

EDIT You know after re-reading this thread, it is definitley a challenge trying to figure out how to sell someone on the AMA.

Clearly, to me the most basic reason to join the AMA is to help protect and maintain the sport. I think the sport (as I know and enjoy it now), would not be possible without the AMA.

What I don't know is whether this holds true for the vast majority of these newbies. I_think_it does (that is, I do_not_think having thousands of guys flying at local parks and schools will work for long, we still need organized fields in the long run no matter what).

I am not sure how to prove this to someone.....how to show the "value proposition" of the AMA and the organized club/club field.

Whatever the value proposition is, the AMA had better boil it down to something easy to get across to the newbies, and quick.

sweetpea01

My Feedback: (10)

As a former R/C car club president and having to deal with ROAR memberships (car version of AMA) I can add my .02



Its as simple as this. Whether its city land or personal land or a business land, someone is going to get hurt. Whether they put a hand in their prop or stub their toe on a rock. If said person decides to sue.......first they go after the business or owner of the land. They can also go after the club itself and its members. Then they go after the person who owns it. And can possibly go after individuals if they feel they contributed to the cause of the incident.

Our car track for example was on a business land and his insurance company threatend to cancel on him unless we came up with our own coverage. We tried to buy insurance from local companies but the price was more than our 35 person club could afford. Roar was affordable, We did lose a few racers to the $35 yr fee.......but how many would we have lost if to race we had to charge $30 each week instead of the $10 to pay for the insurance?

And insurance for R/C believe it or not is not easy to come by. It is quite expensive. The reason AMA /Roar etc.....get away with it is that they spread it out over numerous members and that they require you to be a member to participate. If just one person flys and is not a member than they risk the financial well being of everyone involved in the club.


I for one hate making people pay for Insurance, but with the way things are and how easy it has become to sue you have to do something to protect the majority. And almost any "cheap" insurance is secondary coverage no matter what company. They will always expect you to use your primary health/homeowners first then they make up the differences.


Hope this helps your understanding.


As for the magazine........it should pay for itself in advertising fees IMHO......so my yearly dues should not be reflected in paying fo the rag.......or they need to move it online only.

hunter_alexander

My Feedback: (1)

Thank you all for the great replies.

I dont think that I told everyone enough about me. I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I already belong to the AMA, but I was more curious as to why we have it, and the other factors involved in belonging to the AMA.

Kind of playing devils advocate.

My main thing is that it seemed that we had no recourse, other than to join the AMA if you want to fly. I now see that I was wrong in that assumption, but that it is cost prohibitive for clubs and flyers to not be a member. Makes sense.

I still dont like the magazine part, but I guess I can live with that until it changes. I still dont know all the inner workings on the benefits of being a charter club, but I guess I dont need to know that. As long as it benefits the club, allows us to fly, and protects us and the club, saving the club field owner money. And I guess that it makes sense that if you want to fly at a chartered field, that you have to be an AMA member. Protect your own, so to speak.

Thank you all again.

Live Wire

All a person has to do is read the posts on AMA forum and make your our own Judgement. There are a lot of pro's and con's. It looks like they are shooting them selves down.[8D]

ira d

The reason most people belong to the AMA is that 98% of all clubs in the usa are
chartered by the AMA .
The AMA tells the clubs not to let anyone fly at the club unless you are a AMA member
even if you are already insured.

Why is the AMA the only game in town so to speak? its because its not a lot of demand
for other types of hobby insurance because it would be worthless at 98% of clubs.

Hossfly

In reality the AMA only requires that a Chartered Club has 100% AMA membership. AMA recognizes that at certain sites there may well be other people actively flying there of which the Chartered Club has no control.

I am glad that most of my RC activity is accomplished at a Chartered Club facility where that club OWNS the property. The club has 100% control of the facility. All solo fliers must be AMA members.

Regardless of other insurance, the only thing that guarantees that a flier has financial stability to care for all the other fliers is that he belongs to AMA. In other words, you may have gobs of insurance for yourself, but YOU need to worry about ME having adequate insurance in case I put YOU in a wheel-chair for the rest of your life. []

Responsible people cover their own liability, however it is difficult to assess the other person's responsibility. Commercial Insurance can be cancelled in a heartbeat. AMA insurance is solid ground.

J_R

There is a difference between a chartered club and a field. As examples of such situations near you, go to Whitter Narrows or the Basin. Each have chartered clubs associated with the field, yet, because the fields are owned by local government bodies, there is no requirement to hold AMA membership to fly there. In some areas of the country, this is more likely than in other areas. The point being, nowhere near 98% of fields exclude non-AMA members.

In the cases where clubs have exclusive use of a field, there are other issues, like liability for the club and it's landlord. AMA chartered clubs, in that type of situation, might well chose not to allow non-AMA members to fly there, simply to protect themselves from laibility. As Horrace points out, it also assures each member that everyone else has insurance, should they be involved in an incident.

iflyj3

My Feedback: (7)

If I might add an additional reason to be a member and chartered. We have a float flying club with no permanent designated flying field. We elected to charter the club with AMA because of the liability insurance afforded to the officers of the club.

timothy thompson

My Feedback: (1)

hello everyone,
One of the biggest problems is the idea that if you fly at a AMA field you are safe and covered. You can still kill someone, run a plane through a car , or other tragedy. AMA does not make flying any safer! I fly everything from large gas, helies, and zagis and do not have AMA. Im a loner type and am very careful. I bring a cell phone for emergencies and do not overfly my skills. I still crash one a year though. Only lost one plane in 20 years that I couldnt fix.

I love this hobby

timothy thompson

My Feedback: (1)

BTW i would have quit flying due to my treatment by club members! Only my love of aviation and my dad AAF P-47D25RE pilot 8 kills kept me going. Why cant people be nice to everyone we all crap the same way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

iflyj3

My Feedback: (7)

I agree with you that safety is with the pilot and is usually a state of mind.

You may be the most careful pilot in the world but, when the plane quits responding to your commands for whatever reason, you become an observer and it hits whatever it wants to. I have seen a runaway plane hit one car out of four in a 200 acre field. What's the odds of that? It is at this point you would be glad to have the AMA as backup or primary insurance.

PJAMESRC

My Feedback: (19)

HI HUNTER AND OTHERS
I CAN TELL YOU WHY IM HAPPY WE HAVE THE AMA.
IT PROVIDES HUGE INSURANCE COVERAGE FOR THE FLYING SITE PROPERTY OWNER THAT IS NOT AVAILABLE ANY WHERE ELSE PERIOD.
I HAVE BEEN FLYING FOR 25 YEARS AND HAVE NOT SEEN A FLYING FIELD THAT WOULD ALLOW YOU TO FLY WITHOUT AMA. A STATE/CITY PARK SYSTEM MAY NOT REQUIRE AMA, BUT REQUIRE YOU TO BE A MEMBER OF A AMA CHARTED CLUB. WHY? INSURANCE COVERAGE.
SAFTEY CONCERN : THE AMA SETS GUIDELINES FOR SAFE FLYING. IE FENCE LOCATION, FREQENCY CONTROL, AIRPLANE WEIGHTS ETC.
PART OF THE FUN OF BELONGING TO A CLUB IS THE FELLOWSHIP, LEARNING FROM EXPERIENCED FLYERS, THE SOCIAL ASPECT.
I WOULD SUGGEST YOU GET TO KNOW THE PEOPLE THAT RUN THE AMA. CALL THE DISTRICT COORDINATORS, TALK THEM ABOUT YOUR CONCERNS. DONT CURSE THE DARKNESS LIGHT A CANDLE.
CONTACT LOCAL CLUBS GO TO A MEETING OR TWO AS A GUEST. YOU WILL BE WELCOME.
KEEP ASKING QUESTION, 'TILL YOUR SATISFIED. PJAMESRC

timothy thompson

My Feedback: (1)

Thne local clubs are run by their own antiquated ideas read some posts on this site and get a feel of the problem not everyone is nice to all! Now if I am flying at a public park with full permission why do I need AMA they would not cover me anyway since I am not flying at a sanctioned field.POLITICS IS THE BIGGEST TURNOFF TO THIS HOBBY AND IT WILL DIE DUE TO LACK OF NEW BLOOD IF BEGINNERS ARE NOT TREATED WITH RESPECT BY ALL MEMBERS EVEN THE GUY WHO HAS 10 WW2 FIGHTERS.

iflyj3

My Feedback: (7)

Tim,

You need to understand that AMA insurance covers you no matter where you fly as long as you obey the safety code. You do not have to be a club member or fly at a club facility to have coverage.

I have a 1500 foot airstrip at the side of my house and the closest neighbor is 600 feet away and I wouldn't fly at home without AMA. I have had and seen too many planes that lost their radio communications to take a chance.

ira d

I have been a member for 10 yrs never seen an AMA club that lets you fly
unless you are a member. i have said this befor but others here say im wrong glad
im not the only one that knows you have to be AMA to fly at AMA clubs.

jeffEE

My Feedback: (5)

It's too bad the people that don't have the AMA behind them, will most likely need them someday. And then they will find out why the AMA is so important. We all really need to keep up to date on our support of the AMA. But I guess once your mind is made up one way or another about the AMA, you are not likely to change. Jeff. AMA#679929