J_R

I see now. I was just curious about your thought process.

Oh, and BTW, if you are sitting at the field one day, and someone comes up and offers you a cup of coffee, be careful. If you set it between your legs, be aware it has the potential to do damage if spilled. I know you didn't ask for it, and the included instructions were non-existent... but still...

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

LOL ! My wife's been trying to figure my thought process out for years, and she still doesn't have it figured out - so don't feel bad.

Just to be totally clear here... if the DVD were sent with a note that said in no uncertain terms:

Here are your three options:
[ul][*] Send the DVD back to us in the pre-paid envelope.[*] Keep the DVD, send us $9 and we will sign you up for future DVDs[*] Keep the DVD free of charge, but we will not send any further DVDs
[/ul]

so that your customary 2-second junk-mail scan lets you see all the options clearly, then I personally would have no objections. What I do find utterly reprehensible is if they present you with 2 options:

[ul][*] Send the DVD back to us in the pre-paid envelope.[*] Keep the DVD, send us $9
[/ul]
and then deliberately try to hide the third option in order to trick people into thinking that the third option may not exist. Note that I have not personally seen the letter, but I have had it described to me by someone who got one, and it sure seems to fit the second scenario, not the first.

Many scams rely on confusing some of our more elderly club-mates, and I just find that to be disgusting.

IMO, if the DVDs are of genuine value to AMA members, then being upfront about the options should not be a problem ; only if the DVDs are not good enough for enough people to actually want them, would anyone have to resort to practices that attempt to deceive others. For the AMA to ally itself to such an endeavour, without insisting on non-deceptive marketing practices, suggests a bit of a lack of foresight to me. Because the AMA authorized this process, they (not the DVD production company) will be the ones that the disgruntled members hold accountable.

Gordon

J_R

Hi Gordon

Apparently, you are in the same situation I am. I have not seen the mailing.

I think everyone should be responsible for knowing that it is illegal to send an offer like this and demand money. However, I will agree that the concept that "ignorance of the law is no excuse" has long left our lives. I would also agree that if the information that you can keep the DVD is in 5 pt type in some other fine print, that is not appropriate. On the other hand, if it is out in the open, and reasonably easy to read, then the individual should read the offer.

At the point where the letter becomes an issue, the reciepent has already chosen to open the mailing. I believe the reciepent has a responsibility to ask why a DVD was sent, and to not make assumptions. I sure as heck do not send money for what appear to be bills without determing what they are for. I have a hard time understanding anyone that does.

I can tell you this, as well: If I recieve this thing, and my opinion is the same as P51-B's, i.e. I see no value in it, I am not going to send it back. It's going in the trash... along with the bill.

Just a thought: it might help if someone would do a decent scan of the letter and post it. Then, at least we can argue over something we have seen.

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

Um Gordon, the third option is not something that they'd give to you willingly. It's a matter of Federal law, and if you don't know about it, it's your problem. If a company sends out something of value that cost them money to produce, of course they're going to want to be paid for it, or to get it back. The law exists to discourage companies from strong-arming people into buying things they didn't ask for by sending it to them and presenting them with options.

What's the big deal anyway? If you don't want it, it's CRYSTAL CLEAR that you can send it back. No skin off your nose. Just slip it back into the prepaid envelope and drop it in the mailbox. The option to not pay for it is right there, in legible print. Even if you don't know about the law that says you can keep items of value that were mailed to you unsolicited, you aren't being forced to pay for it. Heck, even if you didn't know about the law, what can they do to you if you keep it? If they try to forcibly take money from you by charging your bank account or credit card, you can nail 'em to the wall. But, they won't because they don't have your information.

bhole74

Here ya go.
Didn't work, I'll try again.

beachflier

Matt,

From your response I am guessing that you have not received this "offer". As it was not CRYSTAL CLEAR that you could send it back.

I am at work right now but I will scan in the letter later today. Also it was not clear what I was receiving. I opened the box first before I even looked at the attached envelope.

I was aware that I could keep this even if I did not see the part that stated I could keep it without sending it back or paying for it.

JPMacG

My Feedback: (2)

IMHO the AMA could have done a better job of explaining the situation in their letter. My first reaction was why in heck is the AMA getting into the book-a-month club business. I even wondered if it was some scam business masquerading as the AMA.

Now that I've viewed the video and read the previous posts from JR, I feel much better about it. I may even purchase the video.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

EXACTLY !! They want to dupe people, not be honest and upfront.

When I get sent a miniature bottle of "Ultra Downy" in the mail, or a dispoable razor, or a candy bar, or whatever, the item is sent as a loss-leader that is intended to generate revenue when the consumer sees how good the product is, and decides to buy more of it. That's how respectable businesses operate ... I've never yet seen one of them sink so low as to try to dupe anyone into thinking that they must return the sample or send money to pay for it !!

... and the reason that the law exists explains exactly my point. Scumbags will try to coerce money out of you if they can. When a law gets passed to try to stop the behavior, the low-life forms simply adjust to the LETTER of the law, not to the intent of it - i.e they go as far as they legally are allowed to, while still doing their best to confuse or deceive people.

Gordon

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

I'll disagree. I think it was crystal clear.

J_R

Be careful, I can hear the soapbox your on getting ready to collapse.

The intent? The letter of the law?

Like in laws calling for specific sound emissions, and clubs trying to convince the neighbors that it was only a stray plane that exceed the limits and it does not happen toooo often?
Or air quality and justifying smoke systems that introduce emissions into the air?
Or perhaps it is environmental emissions like the spots on the ground most of us have at our fields where fuel leaks onto the ground?

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

I won't comment on the sound issue, but the air quality example is bad. That level of emission is not covered. If you could show a harmful constituant at documented hazardous level you may have a case...if you could show that level of hazard existed at the receptor (ie person) after the additional dilution experienced in getting there.

J_R

P-51B

Yeah, but, what was the intent of the law?

J_R

I mean, the title of the law gives us some clue as to what the intent is: Clean Air Act

beachflier

I scanned in the letter that I got then ran it through an OCR program.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

I deliberately scanned the above post quickly, as I would expect to do had I received this junk mail, and ws surpised that even with all of my prior expectations, I still did not register the "you can keep it free" part. Only when I reread it more slowly did I see that part. I therefore stand by my prior statements that these "people" are hoping that many recipients will not see or understand that part, and I find this tactic thoroughly reprehensible. That DB should put his name to it just further diminishes my already poor opinion of him.

Contrast the above with some junk mail that I just received today from KTEH, which starts off with BIG BOLD letters stating "You don't have to pay this 'bill', but we hope you will" - still a tactic I don't approve of, but at least the very first thing you see is very well highlit wording making it clear that you don't have to pay, rather than seeing the "send us your money" bit first, with the disclaimer buried at the end of the note like the AMA's letter.

Anyone know how the "return prepaid" deal works ? Do these people just pay a set fee per month for pepaid postage, or do they pay based on the volume of mail returned to them ? If its the latter, then I suggest that everyone who disapproves of the tactics used should consider sending back the empty envelope - that way these folk don't get their DVD back, but do pay a price for their deceit.

Gordon

J_R

Hi Gordon

After seeing the scan bhole74 did and reading the text beachflier supplied (thanks guys) all I can say is we are going to have to agree to disagree on this particular issue.

JR

abel_pranger

Hey JR-
Well then I disagree with you're agreeing to disagree with him and disagreeably agree to disagree with you .
It's a sleazy way to do business, whomever is doing it. Reminds me of the trash bags I bought for several years in succession because the proceeds were going to disabled Nam vets. Then I learned that 95% of collections went to "admin expenses." No more expensive trash bags for me. How much of a cut do you think AMA gets? That has not been mentioned. Herein lies the sleaze: some people are going to send money because it's for AMA, and "AMA got our frequencies," and AMA gets a nickel for every buck you send. Gimme a break. If I get it and watch it (or not), next stop is the pile of free CD's from AOL. Earthlink, etc. that I keep for plinking at with my Ruger 2-22.
Polish this turd all you want, but that won't change what its made of.

Abel

J_R

Ok, Abel

Virtually every post I have made in this forum assumes that AMA members are a cut above. We are not talking about the general public. I have always believed that modelers do possess common sense.

If the AMA membership can not read an offer as simple as this, perhaps your club was right. How in the world can they assume that the membership of your club can read the instructions that came with Li batteries. For that matter, how can you assume they can count the number of cells in a Li pack in order to set the number of cells on many of the chargers.

How can turbine waiver holders be assumed to have the ability to read the instructions when building a turbine kit.

You all are right. The mailing is just tooooo complicated for the membership to understand.

Dave Brown is right. Turbines should be banned. No tail touching. No Lipos. No Pylon racing. No giant scale racing. Shall I go on? Tooooo much chance of stupid decisions being made by members. They can’t be relied on to read or follow instructions.

The AMA should issue a bubble to each member to protect them from themselves.

I give up.

JR

Buzzard Dave

Hi, just adding my $.02 worth....

i am generally pretty easy going and "go with the flow". i know that it is really difficult to do ANYTHING in a large association like the AMA and not get critisized.....



However, when i got mine in the mail...and scanned the letter...I WAS ANGRY! i could not believe that they had taken the liberty to send me something that i didn't ask for and expect payment. the DVD went in the garbage, so did the letter. i missed the fact that it would be OK to keep it since i hadn't requested it. (the only way they were going to get $9 from me was to pry it from my cold dead fingers!!)


i think they did a disservice to AMA members.


David S. Tampa - FL

PS. glad youz guyz cleared it up....

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

The advertised intent of the law was to clean up the air, primarily by reducing industrial emmissions (The un-advertised intent may have been to destroy US manufacturing capability). Small sources (defined by tons/yr of CO2, NOx, Pb, SO2, O3, and PM10)are specifically exempt from most permitting issues. As with any law, it has become somewhat twisted by some states.

Anyway, back to the DVD,

What did everyone else who received one think of it?

bhole74

It provided a little bit for most aspects of the hobby, however, I agree with an earlier post that it was really lacking info on the AMA itself.

P.S. Would someone PLEASE give the guy with the A-10 some paint!

abel_pranger

You didn't say Uncle. [>:]

Abel

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Therein lies the difference between your view of this issue and mine ... you seem to be assuming that the entire AMA membership is (a) intelligent ; (b) fluent in English ; (c) fully in posession of their faculties ; (d) willing to waste time reading trash thoroughly. I disagree on all counts.

It's already been pointed out that a quick scan (which is all that trash like this deserves) will mislead some people - but even if we put that aside for a moment, consider the injustice done by assuming that every single AMA member is as smart and as literate as you are:

I know of several of our "older brethren" who no longer fly because of their reduced vision / mental capacity / etc. - yet they still come out to the field to socialize periodically because they love the hobby so much, and they still are AMA members because they feel that its right to support the organization that supports the hobby. How does the AMA thank these people for their unnecessary support ? By sending out a flyer that's gauranteed to trick at least some of them out of their money. I guess that's their fault for getting old.

I know many people in this hobby for whom English is difficult in the spoken context, and is a real trial for them in the written context. One in particular comes to mind - a Vietnamese friend - he refused to use a computer radio despite its many advantages because he doesn't understand the wording on the screen and he hates the embarrasment of "being a bother" by asking anyone to read it to him and explain it. The few times he has ventured into unknown territory (such as - gasp - a FOUR stoke engine), it has been because one of his close friends has coerced him out of his area of comfort and patiently explained to him verbally what he couldn't fully take in from any manual via his limited reading skills. He's one of the safest pilots I've met, and I would not hesitate to stand on the flightline with him anyday, yet I'd be willing to bet that if he received one of these deceptive flyers, he would not fully understand it, and he would quite proably just pay the money rather than face the embarassment of bugging one of his friends to explain it to him to save a measly 9 bucks. I guess that's his fault for being fairly illiterate in English .. though this country didn't seem to mind that when we got him to fight on our side in the Vietnam war.

etc., etc. .... So, in addition to the fact that there are plenty of "normal" people who will misunderstand the deceptive mailing when they just scan it quickly, there are others that we need to look out for -- unless of course, our hobby is all about "I'm allright Jack - so stuff the other guys - if they get conned by the AMA, then that's their fault for being old / foreign / etc.". I prefer to try to look out for folk like that if I can - with any luck, I will live long enough to some day be one of those older folks, and I hope that others in MY organization will not seek to take advantage of me like this.

Later,
Gordon

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

We already know that the majority don't have anything of significant value to read since the DVP's are not allowed to talk about anything outside their district and the AMA has changed into a marketing organization. If this were not common knowledge, I could understand your comments, but it has not been hidden. So, why the shot?

Hossfly

Dave is well informed on the "smarts" of the AMA membership as a whole. After all some 16,000+/- reinstated him to his office. The others don't give a dam_ about what he does.
Over the past several years, Dave has witnessed the choices made by the membership for the available offices and that is all for the status quo. A couple minor changes have not been by any landslides as those for the incumbent's wins.

When the membership has an opportunity for significant change they strongly renounce any such choice. Therefore why should any incumbent pay any attention to the generally immature, emotionally biased ramblings that are so frequently displayed by such a relative few in this area. IMO, this forum certainly provided no help in the last attempt to unseat Mr. Brown.

This RCU has close to the same number of members that AMA has. How many even know this AMA forum exists, much less use it?

This specific thread displays that a few individuals do not appreciate certain marketing approaches. The mail is full of such approaches. The newspapers have entire sections devoted to similar approaches in the auto and home sections.
Why did these individuals not revolt several years ago when the Marketing Director instructed the EC on methods to make the dues increase appear needed. Why do they accept AMA's magazine that literally destroy all other media's involvement in supporting AMA? How does the "cost-of-insurance" continue to be supported as a most significant portion of AMA expense, while the cost of MA and simple bureaucracy "explodes" as DB so states about electrics?

Yep, Ol' Davie Boy has no problem reading the level of the AMA membership. After all what can one expect of overgrown boys playing with toys?

Good to see someone displaying some insight into how the world works. The un-advertised intent has been very successful.