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Old 02-28-2005, 12:22 AM
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GrnBrt
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Default Need some opinions here.

Well guys I guess it's time to put this question out to you as i really do trust your opinion. Here's the problem. We have started a new club here and it's really fantastic, flat, no trees, houses and 180+ acres of fly over. Well when we setting the field we only had the board to make decisions and being democratic we voted on the size of the grass runway. Now here's where we get into it. We had a member on the board, he resigned and I took his place and let me describe him. He was a manager for years before retiring and is still flying trainers and with every oppurtunity he reminds you of how great a manager he was, see where I am going? He has to have everything his way and can't take no for an answer but we try to get along. Well we did the voting on the runway and it decided it would be 60' wide by 400' long, well he was the only one that wanted it 80' wide. We said that if you can't land a plane on 60' then maybe you need to take up another hobby. Well he just won't let it lie and even tried to go behind the boards back and widen it, why? Well he said he flies the bigger planes, nope he doesn't. He has a couple but isn't proficient enough to put them together more or less fly them. we are trying very hard to make tis a family type club and he is starting to drive us crazy with this runway thing, now I ask you, is 60' not wide enough????? I could go really go on but it soon read like war and peace and we are trying very hard to figure out how to let this guy go from the club without him suing us, and yes he's that type of person.[:@]
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Old 02-28-2005, 12:40 AM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.


ORIGINAL: GrnBrt

Well guys I guess it's time to put this question out to you as i really do trust your opinion. Here's the problem. We have started a new club here and it's really fantastic, flat, no trees, houses and 180+ acres of fly over. Well when we setting the field we only had the board to make decisions and being democratic we voted on the size of the grass runway. Now here's where we get into it. We had a member on the board, he resigned and I took his place and let me describe him. He was a manager for years before retiring and is still flying trainers and with every oppurtunity he reminds you of how great a manager he was, see where I am going? He has to have everything his way and can't take no for an answer but we try to get along. Well we did the voting on the runway and it decided it would be 60' wide by 400' long, well he was the only one that wanted it 80' wide. We said that if you can't land a plane on 60' then maybe you need to take up another hobby. Well he just won't let it lie and even tried to go behind the boards back and widen it, why? Well he said he flies the bigger planes, nope he doesn't. He has a couple but isn't proficient enough to put them together more or less fly them. we are trying very hard to make tis a family type club and he is starting to drive us crazy with this runway thing, now I ask you, is 60' not wide enough????? I could go really go on but it soon read like war and peace and we are trying very hard to figure out how to let this guy go from the club without him suing us, and yes he's that type of person.[:@]
Hi Art-
This is only in response to the specific issue of the width of the runway, and not other problems that apparently exist with the guy.
What if the rest of you agree to make it 80' wide - IOW, what would it cost you? If it's a significant cost factor, keep up the fight. If it isn't, why not go with a wider runway to get things moving, and chose your fight to oust the turkey on your terms, when it doesn't interfere with moving on to get your club site established and supporting flight ops.

Abel
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Old 02-28-2005, 12:53 AM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.

Thanks abel. We decided that the best way to decide this was to do a vote and everyone wanted it just 60' because we feel that the wider the runway the more sloppy you become and he was the only one that wanted 80' runway. It was done in a democratic way and like I said this guy thinks he knows everything and he doesn't. He has yet to put a plane together, kit or arf in the 12 years that I have known him but he knows all there is about it. He'll put a work party together, (at a different field) and he will sit and watch, states he's a manager and doesn't do grunt work. Like that went over like a wet phart in a rain storm but that's the way he is. I wish I could verbally explain here, not to go with a keyboard. So far nobody has had a complaint about the 60' and everyone seems to be able to hit the center line, except him. It would be a bit of work to make it wider but we won't do it just to satisfy this one person, and I mean he's the only one that wanted it that wide. He's such a pain in the bum![:@]
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Old 02-28-2005, 12:59 AM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.

Hi Art

For an experienced pilot, 60’ is plenty. For an inexperienced pilot, 80’ is nowhere near enough. Why not compromise and make the runway 60’ with a 10’ apron on either side?

Make sure your by-laws are on order and that they reflect what the membership wants in the way of due process. Tossing anyone without due process is a no-no.

As far as your “manager” is concerned, that is another issue. On the one hand he probably views himself as a benevolent dictator. He will probably never work well on a committee. On the other hand, he is like gold. He will probably be the first out to mow the runway, the first to dig holes to put fence posts in, etc. Somebody needs to sit with him and patiently discuss the differences between being a manager and being the member of a committee. Have somebody that relates to people well talk to him, not someone that will “tell him how it is”. Surely you have a personable individual that can make a friend of your “manager”.

Ultimately, having to toss anyone out of a club (for any non-legal reason) is an admission by the club that they have nobody with good people skills. The club will have failed, not the individual tossed.

JR
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Old 02-28-2005, 01:08 AM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.

dunno what i would really recomend, other than:

squeeky wheels really do squeek because they need grease.
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Old 02-28-2005, 02:23 AM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.

I don't want to strike alot of conjecture into this GrnBrt, as I don't know much about your location or situation, but if one is flying a 40% Edge 540, approximately 10' wingspan, it would leave a 25' margin of error down the 60' version of the runway, if you center the ride when landing. You stated that he "was still flying trainers", and you also stated "that if you can't land a plane on 60' it may be time to move on to a different hobby". Small planes, inadequate landing abilities, and a swollen ego will probably not get any better if you go the 80' version. In J_Rs Post he says "Surely you have a personable individual, someone to be a friend, with good people skills." That may be a good short term fix, but people with such ego-maniacal behaviors are not soothed for long. You asked "is 60' not wide enough?" and I say it is. If you leave it at 60', he'll either get used to it or he won't, the fact still remains that the vote was for 60', and he WILL survive. I would stand my ground!! JMO[sm=thumbup.gif]
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Old 02-28-2005, 07:31 AM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.

It has always been my contention that the runway should equal the means...in other words it should be as wide and as long as feasible. In my mind, the perfect runway is endless and I would not be able to even see the other side Heck if 80' is within reason go ahead and have it so. Why limit yourself or HIM?

Hmmm…Why not go ahead and limit the over-fly area too so as to insure competence also? See where I am going?

Actually a wider runway would be conducive to a SAFER flying field. Opps… Now I went and done it…played that safety card…Hmmm now do you really even have a choice?[X(]

I really do not see what would be wrong with a wider runway at all. BTW I am not that guy[sm=lol.gif]
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Old 02-28-2005, 09:35 AM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.

Art, who does the mowing? That extra 20 feet of width is another 33% of work!

I do ALL the mowing for my club. I said 50' x 400' is what it's gonna be... and nobody has complained yet!

Gary
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Old 02-28-2005, 09:57 AM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.

Boy doesn’t this sound familiar. You have one person on the WA WA committee. I want my own way WA[][]. I going to throw a tantrum WA WA[&o].You should be glad this little baby is not the land owner.[>:]

We at Thistledowns have been there, done that, got the T-Shirt.[sm=spinnyeyes.gif] Only difference here was he was the land owner and what any body else or the BOD wanted did not matter. If you disagree with him you get the boot,[>:] or at the very least you were an a**hole for not agreeing with him[sm=bananahead.gif].

Best thing to do is show this guy the door.. If your club goes along with this behavior it will only get worse. Once some one finds out they can run over you like that it just keeps going and going and going. The next thing might be reserved parking for this guy.

Just remember if your club voted, and majority rules as you said you need to stick with the majority vote no matter what this guy wants. If you don’t it will destroy your club down the road. Going against the majority is the best way to split a club into small pieces. It is not worth it for one member. If that member can not compromise, say see yea.
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Old 02-28-2005, 09:58 AM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.

find someone with a full scale aircraft to do a touch and go then tell your manager if a full scale can do it than so can he , i used a dirt path 10ft wide when we moved our field till we built our runway , you learn to fly with with what you have and it makes you a better pilot
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Old 02-28-2005, 10:14 AM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.


ORIGINAL: GrnBrt
now I ask you, is 60' not wide enough?????


Our hardpacked runway started out around 12 years ago roughly 50 x 500 and a lot of folks would run off the ends or land in the rough (which is not that rough) off the far edge. Gradually over the years we would just keep adding a little on the ends and the far edge. Last time I ran the surveyors wheel it is now over 900' by 100' and a second runway at around 30 degrees declination to the main and its 700', all nicely packed hard pan and smooth. Well gues what just as many people still running off the end and in the rough on the far edge, no change. You cannot build to the lowest common denominator, Its normally not finacially viable.

John
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Old 02-28-2005, 11:01 AM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.

Where I fly, the grass landing strip is about 60' wide and 400' long. The president (Memphisbelle) puts his Don Smith B17 down using about 75% of it. My YA Jug and Meister Corsair use a bit less, though the Jug sometimes needs a bit more. The width is not a problem.

Outside the grass, there is a 50 foot alfalfa buffer, for the guys who need a mattress to land on. It usually doesn't tear up their planes, but it does encourage them to land on the runway. I endorse this kind of setup.

Ah, diplomacy. Good luck,
Dave Olson
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Old 02-28-2005, 11:59 AM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.

Well we did the voting on the runway and it decided it would be 60' wide by 400' long, well he was the only one that wanted it 80' wide. We said that if you can't land a plane on 60' then maybe you need to take up another hobby.
You voted. He lost. What's your problem?

You don't have to kick someone out because they disagree with you or because they can voice a dissenting opinion. (If so DB would get rid of a bunch of AMAers from this forum before tomorrow. )

Given that your avatar (an embodiment (as of a concept or philosophy) often in a person) states your self-perception, so again, What's your problem?
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Old 02-28-2005, 12:08 PM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.

I'm with Hossfly.


Regards
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Old 02-28-2005, 12:39 PM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.

Amazing, Over the last 10 years I've taught 40 students to take off and land on a 32 x 250 paved runway. 60 feet of turf and it's not wide enough?

I agree with the previous posts. Point out there was a vote and he lost. He may have been a manager for BXYing company, but no one is paying him to manage anything in the club. If he's such a good manager then he should know when to stop whining and start supporting the program.
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Old 02-28-2005, 02:20 PM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.

Dear Mr. retired manager,

The membership vote of (date) established the runway width of 60 feet and all individuals present at the meeting of (date) had a vote per our constitution. The BOD has discussed your request to widen the runway to 80 feet and the BOD has no objection to your request, however per the vote of (date) we are not atuhorized by the membership to expend the funds to do so. We've costed out the expense to widen the runway to 80 feet and it comes to $XXX, when can we expect your check to cover these costs?

Sincerely,

BOD
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Old 02-28-2005, 02:23 PM
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ORIGINAL: carwood444
<SNIP>
You should be glad this little baby is not the land owner.[>:]

We at Thistledowns have been there, done that, got the T-Shirt.[sm=spinnyeyes.gif] Only difference here was he was the land owner and what any body else or the BOD wanted did not matter. If you disagree with him you get the boot,[>:] or at the very least you were an a**hole for not agreeing with him[sm=bananahead.gif].
<SNIP>
I am not going to go off on a Thistledowns tangent here Art, but you are familiar, I'm sure with our story. I was glad to here you got his spot on the board i.e. his resignation and that he WAS (keyword) manager. Remember, the purpose is for the betterment of the club: an association of persons for some common object (flying) and usually jointly supported and meeting periodically. IMHO, I see a club as a team, and there is no I in team.

ORIGINAL: GrnBrt
He has to have everything his way and can't take no for an answer but we try to get along.
You see, there's that my way mentality, but the TEAM has already said no and now HE needs to try to get along!! Just tell him it'll be OK, then offer him an icecream!![>:]

P.S. Your GROUP IS doing the right thing, you can't always let 1 person have it their way, this is not BURGER KING!! JMO
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Old 02-28-2005, 02:28 PM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.

s3nfo,

Right on, now thats what i'm talking about!!!
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Old 02-28-2005, 02:48 PM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.

Art,
60 ft. is plenty wide. Previous comments about not caving in to an a@# are valid. A vote was taken and that should be the end of it. Cave in now and everyone will be paying for it later. IMO

Pete
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Old 02-28-2005, 03:10 PM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.

New learning pilots will take up as much runway as available both in width or length. 60ft seems reasonable enough. Allowing a lot more only promotes sloppy flying and sloppier control in the long run.
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Old 02-28-2005, 03:16 PM
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Thanks guys and you're all thinking along our lines. Let me give you anothe rexample of what this guy is like and how he perceives himself, we call him Mr Wonderful. He asked a memebr if he would help him with his flying and the member said sure no problem and would be out the next day between 12 and 2 PM as his son had some game he was playing in that day. Well he got there at 1 PM and before one could say howdy doody he had him aside and in his face telling him that no one ever keeps him waiting, ever! Well said member after the shock wore off told this manager to put his plane where the sun never shines. In answer to J_R we do have a runoff on each side of the runway so we are closer to 80' then he realizes. It has finally gotten to the poing where no one will help him and he just got back from Calif. where he spent a week and $500 learning how to land at an R/C school, waste of money as he still can't hit the runway. We have tried to talk to him about his attitude but it hits him like water off a duck and now we are just waiting for him to really violate some safety rules where we can boot him. More to come but right now my 2 fingers are tired.[]
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Old 02-28-2005, 03:21 PM
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Send him to fliers1, Clarence is always up for a challenge.
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Old 02-28-2005, 04:27 PM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.

Art,

Conduct rules are based on ethics and morale values and need not be written, after your last post.....

ORIGINAL: GrnBrt
Well he got there at 1 PM and before one could say howdy doody he had him aside and in his face telling him that no one ever keeps him waiting, ever!
I would say to put together a special meeting of the board, do not vote on him: vote on whether or not his conduct is ethical or morale which will then set a precedent* in the club on the issue of ethics and morales, and based on that he can be kicked, legally!![X(] Then you can vote to add the precedent into your bylaws; vote TO GIVE HIS DUES BACK, unless it is late in the flying season, but if you just received dues, vote to give them back, as this would be good practice in club policy; then vote to renounce** his club membership.

*precedent: something done or said that may serve as an example or rule to authorize or justify a subsequent act of the same or an analogous kind

**renounce: to give up, refuse, or resign usually by formal declaration

P.S. Suggest he go to some anger management classes, and then ask if he would like a icecream!! Sayonara, sucka.[>:]
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Old 02-28-2005, 04:42 PM
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Default RE: Need some opinions here.

most model runways are not much more than 20-30 ft which should be ok for most folks.even beginners who are learning to land. 60 ft is aproaching full size runway widths! unless he is flying giant scale "heavy iron" , not cubs /space walkers its fine. it seems to me you have done what is acceptable to the majority of flyers in the club who will actually use the facility. special needs can be looked at later & thats what id tell him.if he is unhappy he can go else where.
as far as sueing you -on what grounds?? as a private entity the club has the right to set reasonable membership standards. you could require for example, 1 year membership before heading up any committees, & 2 years before running for office. many clubs have requirements beyond what AMA asks & you either go with it or get going.there is nothing he can do about it .
tossing some one out (by vote) is NOT an admission of lack of people skills . Even Jesus Christ couldn't get along with some folks!! I think setting him down & having a talk might work but i can tell you there is a big difference between a "manager"& a first line supervisor.exactly where did he get his training? usuallyyou have to come up "through the ranks". before you give orders you learn to take them. lot more than a title or just watching others do work.part of it is to get others to do tasks willingly for the benefit of the group.he is the one that needs the people skills it sounds like. if he cant or wont do that (or doesnt understand ) he is NOT supervisor material. he may be a great organizer but, if he insists on "my way or the highway" he is costing you more than he is worth. I wonder what he'd think of a pilot skills test(as some clubs require) to be allowed solo?
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Old 02-28-2005, 04:54 PM
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most model runways are not much more than 20-30 ft which should be ok for most folks.even beginners who are learning to land. 60 ft is aproaching full size runway widths! unless he is flying giant scale "heavy iron" , not cubs /space walkers its fine. it seems to me you have done what is acceptable to the majority of flyers in the club who will actually use the facility. special needs can be looked at later & thats what id tell him.if he is unhappy he can go else where.
as far as sueing you -on what grounds?? as a private entity the club has the right to set reasonable membership standards. you could require for example, 1 year membership before heading up any committees, & 2 years before running for office. many clubs have requirements beyond what AMA asks & you either go with it or get going.there is nothing he can do about it .
tossing some one out (by vote) is NOT an admission of lack of people skills . Even Jesus Christ couldn't get along with some folks!! I think setting him down & having a talk might work but i can tell you there is a big difference between a "manager"& a first line supervisor.exactly where did he get his training? usuallyyou have to come up "through the ranks". before you give orders you learn to take them. lot more than a title or just watching others do work.part of it is to get others to do tasks willingly for the benefit of the group.he is the one that needs the people skills it sounds like. if he cant or wont do that (or doesnt understand ) he is NOT supervisor material. he may be a great organizer but, if he insists on "my way or the highway" he is costing you more than he is worth. I wonder what he'd think of a pilot skills test(as some clubs require) to be allowed solo?
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