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Safety in general

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Old 03-10-2005, 08:13 PM
  #1  
Live Wire
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Default Safety in general

Not putting the blame one any size plane or any type flyer, What do you feel needs attention and why. Who will draw the line and who will enforce the rules. Should some ppl get a break where others feel the wrath of the RC gods or are all ppl treated equal. There are problems all through this hobby that need attention! We have seen them in the past, but what does our future hold. When plane turn into missiles made from parts that do not ressemble an airfoil and are more of a weapon.
Watching these threads there are a lot of ppl that have good information and the knowledge that we need. Keep it coming!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 03-10-2005, 11:40 PM
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Default RE: Safety in general

As to what needs attention it hard to say the larger and faster planes
are more likely to cause more damage in a crash.
but i think you have to look at the lost factor baised on the claims
filed and the type of claims.
as for enforcement it can only be done at the club level by the club
offercers, the AMA has no way to enforce any of there rules and
no real way to prove why someting happend there is no NTSB
to investgate model plane crashes.
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Old 03-11-2005, 07:12 AM
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Safety really is not the issue, common sense and a lack of training are the real problems. Enforcement of existing club rules on a club to club basis would solve most of the safety issues out there.

Most people know you don’t fly behind the flight line. You really should not torque over the runway. Taxi your plane toward the pits. People do it and the rest of the club members let these certain people get away with it. Why because there buds, and I understand that.

So this brings you back to common sense. Let’s face facts. You are not going to throw your best friend off the field because he flew over the pits. You might make a passing comment about it to him and that will be the extent of it.

What really needs to be done and I don’t have the answer to this is you have to find a way to get rid of that 5% of the pilots that break rules on a continuing basis. These guys make it tough on the rest of us that try to do the right thing.

It would be like pulling some ones driver’s license for a DUI. You get nailed to many times and you lose your license for good. Every driving offense brings with it a fine of some sort.

Let’s try to figure out a way to do the same thing at our flying clubs. The more serious the offense the bigger the fine. Once you rack up enough points you lose your flying privileges for the rest of the year. Rack up to many points over an extended given period of time and your out for good.

How to document these offenses is another question. We as flyers better start reading the hand writing on the wall. If we don’t all start to practice safety and do it in a big way this hobby is going to do the disappearing act in the not to distant future.

The first time the AMA is not able to get insurance coverage most of us can kiss our flying sites good by. Weather you love or hate the AMA they do provide us with an important service. They provide liability insurance for the land owners. With out it I feel safe in saying most land owners would not let R/C flying happen on their land.

With that in mind if we the members and officers of clubs need to be diligent in enforcement of club safety rules no matter how much it hurts. I know I don’t like to have to think about giving the boot to a good friend but what are the alternatives. Fines and suspensions happen in all different kinds of sports, although R/C is not a sport maybe it should be run like one.
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Old 03-11-2005, 08:28 AM
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Default RE: Safety in general


ORIGINAL: carwood444

What really needs to be done and I don’t have the answer to this is you have to find a way to get rid of that 5% of the pilots that break rules on a continuing basis. These guys make it tough on the rest of us that try to do the right thing.

It would be like pulling some ones driver’s license for a DUI. You get nailed to many times and you lose your license for good. Every driving offense brings with it a fine of some sort.

Let’s try to figure out a way to do the same thing at our flying clubs. The more serious the offense the bigger the fine. Once you rack up enough points you lose your flying privileges for the rest of the year. Rack up to many points over an extended given period of time and your out for good
We had a situation where we were afraid of the possible result of this type of bannisment. What prevents these 5% ers, who don't bother with laws or respect for them in the first place from sitting off the end of your flying field with a transmitter and a bunch of crystals and shooting down everything that goes into the air? How do you deal with that?
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Old 03-11-2005, 09:40 AM
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Major
Make sure you can prove what the person is doing. There are ways to get their attention!! I fought the law and the law won, and if that does'nt work [:@]

Most people not haveing a club or a field to go to, fly where ever and when ever they can and there is no law against it. You have to prove intent!
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Old 03-11-2005, 12:10 PM
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ORIGINAL: carwood444

Safety really is not the issue, common sense and a lack of training are the real problems. Enforcement of existing club rules on a club to club basis would solve most of the safety issues out there.

Most people know you don’t fly behind the flight line. You really should not torque over the runway. Taxi your plane toward the pits. People do it and the rest of the club members let these certain people get away with it. Why because there buds, and I understand that.

So this brings you back to common sense. Let’s face facts. You are not going to throw your best friend off the field because he flew over the pits. You might make a passing comment about it to him and that will be the extent of it.

What really needs to be done and I don’t have the answer to this is you have to find a way to get rid of that 5% of the pilots that break rules on a continuing basis. These guys make it tough on the rest of us that try to do the right thing.

It would be like pulling some ones driver’s license for a DUI. You get nailed to many times and you lose your license for good. Every driving offense brings with it a fine of some sort.

Let’s try to figure out a way to do the same thing at our flying clubs. The more serious the offense the bigger the fine. Once you rack up enough points you lose your flying privileges for the rest of the year. Rack up to many points over an extended given period of time and your out for good.

How to document these offenses is another question. We as flyers better start reading the hand writing on the wall. If we don’t all start to practice safety and do it in a big way this hobby is going to do the disappearing act in the not to distant future.

The first time the AMA is not able to get insurance coverage most of us can kiss our flying sites good by. Weather you love or hate the AMA they do provide us with an important service. They provide liability insurance for the land owners. With out it I feel safe in saying most land owners would not let R/C flying happen on their land.

With that in mind if we the members and officers of clubs need to be diligent in enforcement of club safety rules no matter how much it hurts. I know I don’t like to have to think about giving the boot to a good friend but what are the alternatives. Fines and suspensions happen in all different kinds of sports, although R/C is not a sport maybe it should be run like one.
The AMA has never had a police force, and I, for one, am glad it does not. Just the thought of trying to administer an enforcement effort boggles my mind. I can see where it might require several more people on staff at HQ. That is not something I ever want to see. It also brings forth the spector of abuse of authority.

There are, essentially, three types of situations where we fly. At uncontrolled fields, at AMA chartered club fields, and at AMA sanctioned events (they can be held anywhere).

In the case of an uncontrolled field, AMA members may or may not make up the group of pilots and there is little that can be done to control the actions, other than talking to people and trying to persuade them that it is important to conform to some safety standards. Even if the AMA had an enforcement arm, it would be ineffective in this situation.

In the case of an AMA chartered club field, the club is in charge of safety enforcement. Agreeing to enforce the AMA safety code, which may include club rules, is agreed to by the club each year when applying for a charter. Clubs are only limited by their by-laws as to the actions they may take.

In the case of a sanctioned event, wherever it might be held, it is up to the CD to provided a safe environment and enforce the AMA Safety Code, which may include any club rules, if held at an AMA chartered club field. The CD has the authority to counsel, warn or eject a participant in an event.

In other words, the enforcement potential is already in place.

You used 5% as the number of pilots that present a problem. Is that your estimate for intentional violations, or all violations of safety rules? My guess is that no one on this forum can say that have never unintentionally violated a safety rule.

The intentional offender is another matter, and it falls to the club or CD to control his actions. If they do not, they are remiss in their duties. From my experience, I believe that talking to people like this generally gets the desired results. It is when no one will step up and discuss the actions with the pilot that problems arise. If the club or the CD do not do what they are supposed to, personally, I would talk to the pilot. I have a hard time understanding people that will sit back and stew, write letters, rant, and say nothing to the pilot in person. There are a lot of people in this hobby that I respect, but no one that I am so in awe of that I don’t feel I could talk to them in a reasonable manner.

We had one guy show up at a fun fly at our club. He is the safety officer at another club and had the reputation of being the ultimate field Nazi. His plane was caught in a whirlwind that was not evident from the ground. His engine quit, and he did the safest thing possible when he regained control. He landed on the shade structure over our pits. He received a round of applause. He was also red faced and apologetic. Apparently, for the first time, the realized that things can happen that are beyond the control of the pilot. Word from the other club is that he is a much better safety officer today. He finally realized that every safety violation is not intentional.

Can some unintentional violations be prevented? Absolutely. Many can be prevented by attention to detail and education. How many times have you seen a plane go in because the ailerons were reversed, the wrong plane selected on the Tx, or just bad linkages? In this area, the AMA can and should be active, as should clubs.
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Old 03-11-2005, 12:18 PM
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Default RE: Safety in general

Don't forget that ALL AMA members are required to follow the Safety Code. Everywhere you fly, every time you fly. NOT just at chartered club fields or sanctioned events.

I carry a copy with me in my TX case. Just handy to have around.
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Old 03-11-2005, 02:34 PM
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We have been seeing more conflicts at our field to 3d fliers, hellecopter fliers and airplanes flying normal paterns. It is something we often address and we often work on. In my opinion the AMA should establish a set of "Right of Way" guidlines much as there is in full scale aviation. Perhaps this could be done as guidlines with examples by the AMA. This should be based on 3 principals.

1. The "Default flying" at the field
2. Maneuverability.
3. Setting examples of common courtisy

1. With a normal runway, the default flying "at the runway" would be traffic pattern type flying. Any one taking off or landing would have right of way over everyone else ("emergencies" not included). Fly bys would be next. When neither of these are being done, nor are people around who wish to do it, people can hover, do short loops, what ever (within reason based on safety). If a guy fires up a trainer, the 3-d'r needs to move on and get out of the way of the normal traffic flow.

Many people also believe this takes away the right of the 3-d'r to practice. If so the 3-d'r could move to have times set asside for the 3-d'r crowd to have right of way.

2. Maneuverability. Right of way rules in full scale aircraft are based on maneuverability. A ballon has right of way over a glider as it cannot stear. A glidder would have right of way over a powered aircraft as an aircraft under power is more maneuverable.

3. Common Courtesy. I fly Ziroli Bearcat with a 100cc engine. I do not fly it until everyone is down. I don't take it up with people trying to learn to fly, or with guys flying small sport planes. When everyone is down, I fire it up and take off. At that point if some one choses to go up great but I have not made anyone uncomfortable by going up when they are up.

The FAA came out with posters displaying the obvious. It wouldn't hurt to send posters to clubs for them to post of "Obviouse" courtesy examples. It is amazing how many times people need to be reminded of the obvious.

Guidline vs rules? I don't know which is better but when the clubs come up with too many rules, it is no longer fun. I left this club once for 5 years when a gestapo saftey officer began an argument about where I was standing WHILE I WAS FLYING. I was standing 10foot left of a flying station closer to the end of the runway flying a difficult airplane. Almost caused me to crash and we were the only ones at the field! I left the club after that day for 5 years!
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Old 03-11-2005, 03:09 PM
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Default RE: Safety in general

GOW589 has brought up a good point with his Safety officer fiasco.

I have also witnessed this type of behavior several times over the years.
The reason I mention this is from what I've seen , sometimes
the most dangerous thing at the flying field IS the safety officer.

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Old 03-11-2005, 03:11 PM
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Reading the Rules understanding them and applying them the right way makes a difference. Then some can not and do not no what can happen. Policeing ourselves is the best way but some think it will never happen to me till it is to late. Most accidents happen to the ones flying the planes and are there not paying any attention to what is going on, worrying more about other people and not watching what they are doing. Unautherized persons in the pits and on the flight line distracts pilots and crews.
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Old 03-11-2005, 03:21 PM
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I also have a daughter who is learning to fly. She is young, memeber of AMA and the club. I alsways get on her when she does not take note or watch an airplane take off, land or fly in the near vacinity. I am always impressing upon her to know what is going on around her. It also doesn't hurt to stand near the concrete work tables. They make great places to duck under.
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Old 03-11-2005, 03:24 PM
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Default RE: Safety in general

Roby
Most SOs at the field can have no friends, make no friends, or be a friend if they do thier job,
One lonely OFFICE. "Been there done that"[]
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Old 03-11-2005, 03:49 PM
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I agree with you outlaw, the people who have any comon sense wouldn't become a safety officer and the ones who often become safety officer don't have enough comon sense to do the job.
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Old 03-11-2005, 05:51 PM
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RC OUTLAW

I'm not too sure where your coming from
I never mentioned anything about friends. I said
they may be dangerous.

All this aside , from what I've seen ......the safest place you
might experience IS the flying field. Think about it and what
really occurs around us every day. Model airplanes should be
of little concern in the real and big picture.



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Old 03-11-2005, 06:27 PM
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It is very interesting how the size of the field, the people involved, and how many fly at the location makes a difference, how rules are applied and who inforces them. Like at the Big B if you do not like what is going on you move to another location. There are so many people that fly you do not no them all and could care less! At a small field every one knows when the other one [:'(]farts.
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Old 03-11-2005, 06:35 PM
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ORIGINAL: Roby

All this aside , from what I've seen ......the safest place you
might experience IS the flying field. Think about it and what
really occurs around us every day. Model airplanes should be
of little concern in the real and big picture.

Regards
Roby
I have had to dodge, run, dive out of the way and run from airplanes on MANY ocasions over the years. The year Aviation Expo opened at Ankeny I had a .90 size airplane take my hat off at 100+ MPH. I did the linbo just in time falling over and damaging my airplane. If I had done so 1/2 second latter, the engine was in line with my head and I would have been killed. It destroyed 3 large scale airplanes, broke a couple lawn chairs bend up a wagon handle and broke one guys toe from the debree. This is why my eyes are usually opened so wide. An R/C field is NOT the safest environment unless you are stationed in Iraq!
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Old 03-11-2005, 07:12 PM
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Interesting when you change from a S.O. to a S.O.B. and you are still the same person!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 03-11-2005, 07:15 PM
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I belong to two AMA clubs at this time. But for nearly 15 years I flew at outlaw sites. And it may sound difficult to believe, but the outlaw sites were the most restrictive. We had obstacles to contend with, tree lines on the approaches, and "several no fly zones" as well as light poles around the runway. The airspce was very complicated. The runway was short. These were , by far, the best group of pilots I have ever flown with. We had impropt pilot meetings at the first hint of conflict. It was very common to have 7 or 8 planes doing touch and goes. We had procedures for jumping in and out of the pattern. And several of us would do touch and goes in formation. We had absolutely no authority over who flew there and who didn't. But it was very clear to anyone that attempted to join us that our rules made some extraordinary flying possible. As complicated as the situation was, many of the people there actually learned to fly there. And they found that very experienced pilots from nearby clubs were unable to get their planes back in the field. "Little help here." And a local would go and rescure the visitor.

Good people make a good club. Rules make us predictable to one another so we can fly well together.


At the outlaw field mentioned above, the core group of about 12 or 15 folks that flew there nearly daily all knew one another very well. We flew together all of the time. We knew what to expect of each other. We could do low passes in opposite directions of each other. "I'll take the inside" , I've got the outside". We communicated as a team. We had agreed upon short verbage to communicate quickly. It was an extraordinary era in my model history and I miss it very much. When the site was eventually lost to progress, many of the crew attempted to fly at an AMA club but found the experience completely unsatisfying.

"Hey, lets do the missing man ! " Noone understood what that was. Formation ? You crazy. It had been expected at the old field. You were taught how ! Learning to fly didn't mean 3 succesful landings. It meant alot more.

I understand that large groups, say 100 or 130 people can't ahieve the coohesion and esprit de corp that 15 guys can. But I was very dissapointed to see the type of flying I saw at AMA clubs.


So I think that safety and the issue of saftey at AMA clubs has made many of them completely impotent. The clubs are machines that grind along attempting to apply "beginners rules" to all that fly there. And in doing so, they have made everyone a beginner for all time.
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Old 03-11-2005, 08:11 PM
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I just wish I could express my self like you just did. This is what I lived through and Loved every minute of it.

To bad people now can not experience what we had.
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Old 03-11-2005, 08:28 PM
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ORIGINAL: RC Outlaw

Interesting when you change from a S.O. to a S.O.B. and you are still the same person!!!!!!!!!!
Me?
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Old 03-11-2005, 08:37 PM
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No Me. You are a day late and a $ short
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Old 03-11-2005, 09:10 PM
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ORIGINAL: RC Outlaw

You are a day late and a $ short
Nothing has changed then.
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Old 03-11-2005, 10:03 PM
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ORIGINAL: RC Outlaw

Interesting when you change from a S.O. to a S.O.B. and you are still the same person!!!!!!!!!!
Dadgum I am tired and slow, I understand now!


GEE WIZ!
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