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Responsibilities we seem to avoid

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Old 03-13-2005, 03:55 PM
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Jim Branaum
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Default Responsibilities we seem to avoid

I have watched lately several threads grow to astounding sizes with all sorts of verbiage addressing why and who, but NEVER a single word about getting the actors involved to be proactive about resolving the various issues at stake. It occurred to me that when this is coupled with raising dues for no additional value, many see no reason to be a part of the AMA. The astoundingly low renewal rate seems to indicate a very serious problem we, as interested modelers, must address.

I have been a club officer for several years and found motivating my own club members sometimes looks like a Herculean task, but I persevere. Are we, here, representative of the general membership and unwilling to take action? Is that the problem, or is it simply an extension of the 'Let George do it' philosophy we see so much of? It does not matter as that is not really the question.

The question we must answer is what do we need to do to motivate folks to immediately address safety/rules/common sense violations with the actors? What do we as an organization need to provide to give the weaker the backbone to stand up to some violator and insist on immediate corrective action? What can we do as a group, or an organization, to insure that there are fair rules that are equitably enforced? What can we create that will work?

This is an open question and does NOT refer to any specific thread, person, or incident but encompasses many over the last several months.

Thoughtful responses are desired.
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Old 03-13-2005, 04:40 PM
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Default RE: Responsibilities we seem to avoid

You can do any thing you want and if people don't want to get involved they won't. You can not accomplish anything unless you get both side of an isue. As you no most people don't care as long as they are not personally involved, then it gets down to name calling and every one looses.

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Old 03-13-2005, 05:20 PM
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Default RE: Responsibilities we seem to avoid

The "let George do it" behavior has been around for as long as I can remember. Our first controline club was founded 1n 1954 and as I recall my father and two others put in and maintained the circles while the other twenty or so would come out on Sundays and complain if they had to wait for more than 15 minutes.
The standing question of how to reign in violators probably will not be solved in anyones lifetime.
First and foremost there is always a question of violation versus not liking what someone is doing or personal interpertation of a vague rule. Don't confuse this with crashing in the pit area or flying over the people on the flight line. Clear cut dangerous action is much different than launching a airplane at 90 degrees to the flight path, taking off in front of a landing aircraft, doing aerobatics while others are flying a racetrack pattern and on and on.
The things that can cause direct personal injury or death should be addressed as they happen by those involved not held back for "club action".
The things that offend, cause personal discomfort, or are blown into huge hypothetical situations have no clear cut methodology for resolution. These things can be discussed ad nauseum and shored up with hundreds of anecdotal solutions but in the end most of these situations are left unresolved as they are replaced by something fresher that has happened.

As for the AMA membership renewal, again, time will determine what happens here. Although I have been a member for years, I have said several times that I consider AMA to be a toothless dog. Past laurels are overshadowed by the question of what have you done for me lately?
Many people are voting with their pocketbooks. There is indication that the AMA has become a self serving organization that is out of touch with what a portion of the current membership and non member flyers really want.
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Old 03-13-2005, 06:53 PM
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ORIGINAL: Gremlin Castle
There is indication that the AMA has become a self serving organization that is out of touch with what a portion of the current membership and non member flyers really want.
Evaluating what member flyers want is my job, even if my name isn't George.

Evaluating what non-member flyers want is gonna be a lot more difficult. Not sure how to do that.

As in two other AMA Districts, District V is under new 'management', with a new staff. For the first time in decades the District V officers are ALL active model builders and flyers, not a bunch of political appointees who hold AMA positions because they belong to a large club or because they won the "instant LM/instant AVP" door prize somewhere.

Things are changing in District V about as fast as they could change. AVPs have geographic areas of responsibility and have tasking heretofore unheard of - submitting a minimum number of event reports per quarter, with a guarantee of having at least two such reports published in MA per year (there are or will be 20 AVPs, so two events per year per AVP ain't bad). The District V AVPs are going to work meeting with clubs and members, covering events, and more importantly, jump-starting the lines of communication in the District and to Muncie.

For the first time EVER there is a Leader Member discussion list for D-V. There is or will soon be a discussion list for the Safety Coordinators in the District, and that's another first. The District V web site staff listing includes e-mail addresses and phone numbers. The days when an AMA member could not get a response from a District V officer are well and truly gone.

AMA may have been headed toward a self-serving organization in the past, but those days are over down here. I betcha that's also true in the two districts which elected new Vice Presidents last fall, and I'm real sure it's already going on in Dave Mathewson's district.

Muncie doesn't recruit new AMA members, those are found or created at the club level - model flyers don't sprout at the National Flying Site, but they pop up like weeds out here in the woods.

It's my opinion that most clubs don't think AMA does much for them beyond providing insurance for events, and that most members don't think of AMA as anything other than an insurance provider. That's all wrong, but I think I'm safe in calling it a real popular opinion.

Getting the clubs back up to speed in communicating with Muncie, with the District, and with each other is my job.

Servicing 34 clubs in North Georgia is gonna put dent in my building schedule, but I think that in the end it will have been well worth the effort.

Now, it'll take us some time to get District V untracked and working again, so how's about let's see if AMA is still a self-serving organization in a year or two ?
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Old 03-13-2005, 08:02 PM
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Default RE: Responsibilities we seem to avoid

Fred,
Some of those things need to be done on a national basis, but not all of the DVP's have the courage shown by Tony. Never the less, there is one important thing we need to address and that is how to change the average modelers view of the AMA. I am not sure how well the AMA can stand another year of renewals at the level seen this year without some tax and spend guy on the EC suggesting another dues increase. Probably the same one who talked $7 and gave us $10 last time. Or was that Muncie?

Gremlin Castle,
Nice job of parsing my remarks without addressing the questions I proposed. I am not so stupid as to not understand that we do have some unsafe pinheads in the hobby, I get to try to educate them regularly. Nor does the existence of the 'Let George do it' bunch surprise me, except for those on this forum. Now let me ask a direct question of you. Do you even care if the AMA exists tomorrow, or are all of your needs covered under the insurance umbrella like the majority of the other folks at the flying field?

RCO,
Read my comments about motivating people again.

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Old 03-13-2005, 08:25 PM
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Default RE: Responsibilities we seem to avoid

It helps to no with whom you are communicating , and not just blowing steam into a freezer! There is a lot of hot air here lateley and I am part of it! Just looking for answers.
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Old 03-13-2005, 08:35 PM
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Default RE: Responsibilities we seem to avoid

When you go to the field to fly with friends are they laughing with you or at you Some thing to think about
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The longer we keep these people in the dark the more flying we get to do.
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Old 03-13-2005, 10:01 PM
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Default RE: Responsibilities we seem to avoid

If Webster is still correct I am commenting on your post not analyzing it or its syntactic string.

No, you will not find any answers forthcoming on this forum or any other as to how to either motivate people or provide them the backbone to act if in fact they do not have it.
What you are seeking is an answer to a universal question which is how do you inspire a group of people to perform and do the right things at the right time.
The AMA and clubs will always exist because of the efforts of the dedicated and sometimes misguided efforts of a dedicated few.
As for the AMA, yes I care that it exists because there is no viable alternative out there. I do wonder though whether the apathy of the general membership has allowed an internal structure to take hold that will prove fatal in the next several years.
I am a member of three clubs and president of one. One of the clubs has had to move its flying site. Two other people besides myself have done all of the work to create the new site.
I also contribute cash and materials to all three clubs so I feel that my support is adequate. Even though my name is not George I will do it.

ORIGINAL: Jim Branaum

Gremlin Castle,
Nice job of parsing my remarks without addressing the questions I proposed. I am not so stupid as to not understand that we do have some unsafe pinheads in the hobby, I get to try to educate them regularly. Nor does the existence of the 'Let George do it' bunch surprise me, except for those on this forum. Now let me ask a direct question of you. Do you even care if the AMA exists tomorrow, or are all of your needs covered under the insurance umbrella like the majority of the other folks at the flying field?
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Old 03-13-2005, 11:04 PM
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Default RE: Responsibilities we seem to avoid


ORIGINAL: Gremlin Castle SNIP

The AMA and clubs will always exist because of the efforts of the dedicated and sometimes misguided efforts of a dedicated few.
As for the AMA, yes I care that it exists because there is no viable alternative out there. I do wonder though whether the apathy of the general membership has allowed an internal structure to take hold that will prove fatal in the next several years.

SNIP
Your first remarks seemed to indicate you felt we might just ignore everything and sweep it under the rug where it will disappear because everything was right, well close to right in the world. If I misunderstood them, sorry. While I agree with some of your comments and hope the first sentence of the above quote is true, but I am beginning to question that wisdom. Renewals seem to be down about 5% which adds up. That is why I started this thread.

I also am a contributing member of three clubs. From what I have seen, club members appear to have about 20% involvement at some undefined level. I say undefined because I rarely see the meeting attenders at the flying field and those I see at the flying field are seen as visitors from afar at the club meetings. That holds for all three clubs. I bet it is similar to yours. In the one club, we lost TWO flying fields last year and started a new one. You know how much fun that is!

The question is what can we create that will help address those apathy issues within the AMA and our own clubs? Remember, this is to be an all inclusive answer rather than a targeted one to me, or you, or our clubs. That is the challenge and we both know it is possible, we just have to find the right mix of open communicating minds.



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Old 03-14-2005, 12:56 AM
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Default RE: Responsibilities we seem to avoid

Hold your club meetings at the field Saturday at 9 AM. Two things will happen. You will have much better attendance and you will have much shorter meetings.
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Old 03-14-2005, 10:31 AM
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Default RE: Responsibilities we seem to avoid

ORIGINAL: Jim Branaum

I have been a club officer for several years and found motivating my own club members sometimes looks like a Herculean task, but I persevere. Are we, here, representative of the general membership and unwilling to take action? Is that the problem, or is it simply an extension of the 'Let George do it' philosophy we see so much of? It does not matter as that is not really the question.
This is quite a big question. I find that most people in the club help with that they are interested in. For instance, a certain faction in our club is always planting trees, building fences, barns, structures, landscaping etc, etc. They are always complaining others are not helping. The truth of the matter is most would wrather be building. Fre time is so scarce you either build and fly or spend your time in facility maintenance because so many improvements have been made.

The truth is 90% of the club just want a runway, some tables, a simple safety fence and some basic shelter. The rest of it requires constant mx, board meetings, it's harder to mow, etc. The club is getting more consumed with maintaing the grounds and it divides the club. I am more than willing to help and have BUT did not join the club to be landscaper, garden keeper, etc.

This is just one aspect but the goals of the one are not always the goals of the many!
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Old 03-14-2005, 11:31 AM
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Default RE: Responsibilities we seem to avoid

While that was not what I have been trying to address, it does highlight one important facet of the problem. What we all got involved with in the first place was model aviation. Recent years have seen the paperwork from the AMA grow in some areas. Now, we have to spend time updating membership rolls quarterly, send in our by-laws to daddy for approval, and other stupid stuff that does not aid in flying model airplanes. Yes, paperwork seems to be the new hobby created by the AMA. Even in areas where the it looks like the AMA tries to help the hobby/organization grow, we have been overwhelmed with paperwork. Look at the fallacy created by the introductory pilot program.

When the AMA brought this program out, my club bought into it and convinced AMA to increase the number of Introductory Pilots allowed in each club based more on membership since that is a reasonable measure of activity. We have maintained several AMA IP's over the years and I have been astounded at how poor the program works. Every one thinks it is great, but in over 10 years I know of only ONE guy who was actually trained under it for the time period allowed. The problem is that for the IP to have fun corrupting, er teaching a new victim, er flyer, he has to do a whole bunch of paperwork. I know of 3 that tried and don't even train AMA members any more because of their displeasure with the paperwork seen in the IP program.

This is the kind of thing we need to change. This is the kind of thing that someone needs to talk to their DVP about and educate him.

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Old 03-14-2005, 11:34 AM
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I would like to see our clubs look to simplify a little so we can focus. That's a big/general answer but I think it would help. Too often we do things because we can and it ends up like my garage. 10 cool airplane projects I'll never have time to finish.
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Old 03-14-2005, 01:29 PM
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Jim, in response to your apathy/motivation question probably the only thing that stands a chance of success is a directed effort by those that are already doing most of the work.
The most likely scenario for that premise would be for the active members in the district clubs to come together and pick the most political and diplomatic one or two individuals from that group.
The remainder would have to agree to act as background support and resource for those that make direct contact with the AMA.
In theory that is part of what the district VPs are charged with. However that area has too many other demands on the position to allow them the luxury of trying to implement change.
Those outside the stayed structure would be less swayed by the insiders but would also have to be much more persistant to gain any real recognition from the AMA leaders.
My experience is limited to what I have seen and experienced in the manufacturing world. Either the corporation recognizes where the market is headed and changes of its own volition or a group within the stockholders puts together a consortium with enough power and authority to force a change of direction.
The final thing that I have presided over is the salvage of assets of collapsed corporations that failed to stay competitive in the market.
For all of our sakes I wish that there was a silver bullet solution for the problems but the reality is probably as Patton said,"Victory is for those that believe in it the most".


ORIGINAL: Gremlin Castle SNIP

The AMA and clubs will always exist because of the efforts of the dedicated and sometimes misguided efforts of a dedicated few.
As for the AMA, yes I care that it exists because there is no viable alternative out there. I do wonder though whether the apathy of the general membership has allowed an internal structure to take hold that will prove fatal in the next several years.

SNIP

The question is what can we create that will help address those apathy issues within the AMA and our own clubs? Remember, this is to be an all inclusive answer rather than a targeted one to me, or you, or our clubs. That is the challenge and we both know it is possible, we just have to find the right mix of open communicating minds.

[/quote]
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Old 03-14-2005, 07:28 PM
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ORIGINAL: J_R

Hold your club meetings at the field Saturday at 9 AM. Two things will happen. You will have much better attendance and you will have much shorter meetings.
If your club can afford it, set up lunch at 12:00 and have a club meeting at 12:30. Works quite well for Bartow County Model Aviation (http://bcmarc.com/) as about 100% of the regular meeting attendees are also regulars on the flight line. Pretty active bunch of flyers who have accomplished a great deal, for a small (under 100) membership.
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Old 03-14-2005, 07:32 PM
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ORIGINAL: Jim Branaum
This is the kind of thing we need to change. This is the kind of thing that someone needs to talk to their DVP about and educate him.
I'd go find the local AVP and start with him. If he can't be bothered, let the DVP know he needs a new AVP.

BTW - Herr Doktor Frank was at the Perry show and attended our D-V new staff 'kick-off' meeting. Made a number of interesting comments and suggestions.

Talks funny, though . . .
<g>
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Old 03-14-2005, 10:45 PM
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Fred,
Please share his remarks as I have been remarkably unable to get effective communications with him even when I invest time, effort, and modeling money in the attempts.
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Old 03-15-2005, 11:11 PM
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The good Doctor didn't make an address or anything along those lines.

He just offered observations on a few of the points Tony made, such as how to deal with questions to which the AVP doesn't know the answer. Nothing earth shaking, and actually just common sense - like, don't blow smoke up any skirts, so to speak, if you don't know the answer. Tell the questioner you don't know but you'll get the answer.

Stuff like that.

No real surprises, except when the discussion got 'round to the safety issues - seems there is an effort underway to unearth and make available data about safety incidents and accidents, to some extent. Not settlements or money, but the particulars of what happened and how it happened, with a view toward making clubs more aware of the number and variety of incidents and accidents that take place, so the clubs can take a look at the way they do business and perhaps make change where needed.
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Old 03-15-2005, 11:49 PM
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ORIGINAL: the-plumber

//SNIP//

No real surprises, except when the discussion got 'round to the safety issues - seems there is an effort underway to unearth and make available data about safety incidents and accidents, to some extent. Not settlements or money, but the particulars of what happened and how it happened, with a view toward making clubs more aware of the number and variety of incidents and accidents that take place, so the clubs can take a look at the way they do business and perhaps make change where needed.
That has been under consideration for some years. It may happen, however I won't try to hold my breath.

Mr. Brown's trainer was one that fully believed in the "mushroom concept" of AMA business and membership. You know what that is: "Keep 'em in the dark and feed 'em 'shot'." [&o] I think he learned his lessons well.
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:21 AM
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Some of that is being done by one of his guys, but it seems to be too piecemeal to build an effective picture from. But that is just MY OPINION based on what little has been leaked out one incident at a time. Oh, well. Better a little information than none.
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Old 03-18-2005, 05:21 PM
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Greetings all . . .

In my post of 3/14/05, I noted that AMA District VIII Vice President Dr. Sandy Frank attended the 'kick-off' meeting for the new AMA District V staff at the Perry show earlier this month.

I also noted that he "talks funny, though", and followed that witicism with <g> which, for the uninitiated, is an old pre-gooey ARPANET way to indicate a grin.

JR has enlightened me that Dr. Frank may sound oddly because of a speech impediment, of which I was unaware.

My comment was meant to indicate that he talks funny because he's one of them Texicans, and they DO talk funny.

I should know, because I escaped Texas the day I graduated from Abilene High School and haven't looked back.

Took me twenty years to learn that the word "cake" does not have four syllables.
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Old 03-18-2005, 05:56 PM
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Took me twenty years to learn that the word "cake" does not have four syllables.
That's OK Fred. Don't worry too much about it. If you're such a slow learner it will all be OK.

This Texican had to leave it for 30 years, but finally got back to the Republic in '85 and will never leave it again except for those summer trips to do reconnaissance on the other planets out there in never-never lands.
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Old 03-18-2005, 08:08 PM
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There is no way one Hossfly can be so full of BS Remember the Horse feathers
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Old 03-19-2005, 11:00 AM
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ORIGINAL: Hossfly
That's OK Fred. Don't worry too much about it. If you're such a slow learner it will all be OK.
Probably so. I'm real sure the bit of water on Georgia's Right Coast is not just another stock tank in East Texas.
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Old 03-19-2005, 07:02 PM
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ORIGINAL: the-plumber
SNIP

Took me twenty years to learn that the word "cake" does not have four syllables.
And what school taught you that pack of lies? <VBG>
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