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AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

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AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

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Old 03-14-2005, 10:09 AM
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J_R
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Default AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

Some may have wondered why, in another thread, I made a big deal of the presence of a CD at a sanctioned event.

It is important that some of our uninformed CDs understand the rules and scope of their responsibility.

The most extreme example of the reason for the rule below, is the case where a CD sanctions an event at a place other than an AMA chartered club field. If, for instance, the CD arranges to use a sod farm for an event that is not used the rest of the year, the landlord can, as a part of the sanction, be provided with liability coverage. Liability coverage for a landlord is not subject to the Safety Code and is a basic liability policy covering all activities involved with the event.

Let us suppose for a moment that an event is scheduled for the hours of 9 am to 3 pm on the sod farm. The time prior to the event is covered, as is the time after, as long as the CD is present. What difference does it make? The landlord is covered during setup for the event before it starts as well as afterwords, subject to the presence of the CD. If while the event is breaking down later in the day and someone inadvertently backs over a child at 4 in the afternoon, while leaving the event, the landlord is still covered, if the CD is present. It also allows an event that has not been completed at some advertised time to finish the event. If it were otherwise, the event would have to stop at the appointed hour, finished or not.

The specific rule is in the General Section of the rulebook: http://www.modelaircraft.org/comp/05...005General.pdf

"2.2. A sanction can only be issued for continuous dates. If at least a full day separates events, separate sanctions must be obtained for each. By definition, an AMA-sanctioned event shall be understood to include that period of time when the CD or his appointed representative is in attendance at the named site on the day(s) listed on the sanction."
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Old 03-14-2005, 12:15 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility


ORIGINAL: J_R

Some may have wondered why, in another thread, I made a big deal of the presence of a CD at a sanctioned event.

It is important that some of our uninformed CDs understand the rules and scope of their responsibility.

The most extreme example of the reason for the rule below, is the case where a CD sanctions an event at a place other than an AMA chartered club field. If, for instance, the CD arranges to use a sod farm for an event that is not used the rest of the year, the landlord can, as a part of the sanction, be provided with liability coverage. Liability coverage for a landlord is not subject to the Safety Code and is a basic liability policy covering all activities involved with the event.

Let us suppose for a moment that an event is scheduled for the hours of 9 am to 3 pm on the sod farm. The time prior to the event is covered, as is the time after, as long as the CD is present. What difference does it make? The landlord is covered during setup for the event before it starts as well as afterwords, subject to the presence of the CD. If while the event is breaking down later in the day and someone inadvertently backs over a child at 4 in the afternoon, while leaving the event, the landlord is still covered, if the CD is present. It also allows an event that has not been completed at some advertised time to finish the event. If it were otherwise, the event would have to stop at the appointed hour, finished or not.

The specific rule is in the General Section of the rulebook: http://www.modelaircraft.org/comp/05...005General.pdf

"2.2. A sanction can only be issued for continuous dates. If at least a full day separates events, separate sanctions must be obtained for each. By definition, an AMA-sanctioned event shall be understood to include that period of time when the CD or his appointed representative is in attendance at the named site on the day(s) listed on the sanction."
The rule as written is ambiguous. Does it mean the sanction is in effect only during the specific times the CD is physically present on the site of the event, or does it mean he is present at some time during the day of the event. During the other discussion you referred to, it is obvious that "some of our uninformed CDs" take it's meaning one way, and you interpret it the other way. Both are reasonable interpretations, it's nonsensical to discuss which is more reasonable. It needs to be fixed. By your interpretation, is the sanction off when the CD goes across the road into the woods to relieve himself?

I think it's of more than a litte concern as to what happens to the landlord's insurance coverage if, as in your example, the CD has left the site.

Abel

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Old 03-14-2005, 01:18 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

Abel

I know you are not a CD. I realize you are not responsible for knowing or understanding what is required for a sanction. If you would like to know the details, you are going to have to read information available about the process. I can’t reasonably post it all. The link in the initial post is a good start.

Here is the official request for a sanction: http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/302.pdf

Note that no reference is made to the hours an event is conducted, only the date. Even event rules may be changed in the sanction request, but not the definition of the sanction itself.

In the example I used, there is no insurance if the CD or his appointed representative are not on site. This is critical.

The CD program is in disarray and has been for years. The AMA needs to address the program. Possibly a handbook just for CD’s needs to be made available. There are just too many CDs that do not understand the responsibilty of accepting the role of being an agent for the AMA.




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Old 03-14-2005, 01:44 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility


This brings to mind the incident a couple of years or so ago when DB very publicly castigated a CD for an incident that happened well outside of the event hours, after the CD had already gone home for the night.

It's almost like the AMA wants to make the CD responsibilities as onerous as possible.
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Old 03-14-2005, 02:00 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

Gordon

I am assuming your talking about the nite flying jet incident? Did that take place at an AMA chartered club field or some other facility?
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Old 03-14-2005, 02:38 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility


ORIGINAL: J_R

Abel

I know you are not a CD. I realize you are not responsible for knowing or understanding what is required for a sanction. If you would like to know the details, you are going to have to read information available about the process. I can’t reasonably post it all. The link in the initial post is a good start.

Here is the official request for a sanction: http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/302.pdf

Note that no reference is made to the hours an event is conducted, only the date. Even event rules may be changed in the sanction request, but not the definition of the sanction itself.

In the example I used, there is no insurance if the CD or his appointed representative are not on site. This is critical.

The CD program is in disarray and has been for years. The AMA needs to address the program. Possibly a handbook just for CD’s needs to be made available. There are just too many CDs that do not understand the responsibilty of accepting the role of being an agent for the AMA.
JR-

I don't need to be a CD and nobody needs to be rocket scientist to see the problem. As for "...just too many CDs that do not understand the responsibilty..," what's the solution? Do we (AMA) denounce them as stupid and throw up our hands, or do we, as you infer in your first three sentences of your last paragraph make it clear to all exactly what is expected of them? By 'make it clear,' I mean rewrite of <whatever document applies> to resolve known ambiguities and generally translate the legalese penned in borderline Swahili to plain English. It's not out of the question - as demonstrated by some capable people that rewrote the Safety Code.

I'm not a CD, and don't compete, but it is my concern. If the landowner's insurance during a sanctioned event is conditioned on the constant presence of the CD on-site, that is part of my concern. What venues would be available for sanctioned events, or potentially many club sites, if the landowner got stuck with an uncovered liability situation because the CD left and practice for the next day's events continued and a serious accident occurred? Who has the liability when the CD leaves the venue, as he has been advised to do by Carl Maroney, when somebody wants to maiden a turbine powered model? Sure, AMA's agent isn't there to represent AMA, so AMA is off the hook for any liability that may arise (or so some ambulance chaser has advised them), but who gets stuck holding the bag? This is just one of many examples that come to mind of AMA preaching safety, when the reality is a self-serving interest in avoiding liability. If anything can be said about how this relates to safety, the expected effect is to diminish it because nobody is left in charge with the authority to enforce safe operations.

Your statement that the CD program is in disarray is an understatement. Looks more a minefield to me. Maybe the problem with CDs not understanding their role is because they are stupid. Catch 22 - you have to be stupid to be a CD. Is that in the rulebook?

Abel
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Old 03-14-2005, 03:14 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

Hi J_R,
I believe it was at SUPERMAN. It was a sanctioned event held at an airport.
I love DB, at the end of his rant he said that no AMA rules were broken! (Then why the rant?)
Whata guy!
When I was studying for my CD, this question came up. The key words are "appointed representative". If I, as the CD, leave the event, I can appoint someone to take over my duties when I leave, assuming I can find someone who will accept the responsibility.
It was always my understanding, and talking to other members, theirs as well, that once the event is over for the day AND the CD has left, the conditions of the sanction are over. Of course, the SC is still in effect. If this is not accurate, then AMA needs to clairify the issue.
I'll write DM and see what his thoughts are.
BRG,
Jon
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Old 03-14-2005, 03:21 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility


ORIGINAL: J_R

Gordon

I am assuming your talking about the nite flying jet incident? Did that take place at an AMA chartered club field or some other facility?
Yup - that's the incident I was referring to. I do not recall for sure whether it was a chartered club's site or not, but I'd lean toward it NOT being one. Given that the AMA's (or at least DB's) position was that the CD, as the AMA's representative, was responsible for everything that happened even outside of the established event time frame, and even when he was not phyically present at the site, that seems to be directly in opposition to the idea that the AMA would revoke insurance cover the moment the CD steps off-site.

BTW, the definition of "attendance" could probably also be subjected to considerable legal scrutiny if the need arose. I am sure that the prosecution's lawyer could just point out that although he attended Yale from 1982 to 1986, that does not mean that he spent every single second of that time there. He could probably show that "attendance" is generally accepted to include periods during which a person is physically absent yet contractually or otherwise still considered to be "in attendance".

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Old 03-14-2005, 03:50 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

Ok, question then.

A small event is held at the local field in the morning. The event "ends", and the field is opened for normal sport flying. If the CD is still hanging around, also sport flying, it sounds like technically the "event" is still ongoing. And yet, that's so silly it can't be true. I mean, if you sanction a pylon contest, and someone crashes a trainer 3 hours after the trophies are handed out, that can't be part of the sanction. If it somehow is, the system is badly broken.

Having the sanction extend for setup and breakdown at the site is a good thing. Not having a way to declare "we're done now" sounds like a bad thing.
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Old 03-14-2005, 04:05 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

As I see it, because the AMA has decided that CD's should not get a year's paid membership, but rather a half-year's membership, the AMA must want/think/expect us to do half-a** job. [&o] Undoubtedly almost all of us disappoint them by doing our best job!

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Old 03-14-2005, 04:14 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

When an event occurs, they often take place at places such as small uncontroled airports which are not normal flying fields. When the event happends it starts by people rolling in with R/V's, unpacking, setting up tents, running their engines, some times test flying an airplane. As the even wraps up each day, people continue to run engines, test fly airplanes, etc. This happends until the trophys are handed out and the event is "over".

Logic would dictate that the CD has to be there (or represenative) durring the time the ompetition is going on. When the competion is done for the day, the "event" is still going on. The "Event" is not over till the competion is done. This event starts when people roll in and start un-packing to when people pack up and leave.

Logic would dictate the cd does not have to be there 24 hours. Logic would dictate there is still aproved activity going on between competions weather it be engine running or actual flying. I would believe the event should be covered from when the people arive to when the contest is offically "closed". At the same time, allowed activity should be made known. Can you fly, can you run engines, etc.
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Old 03-14-2005, 04:57 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

I was talking to an AMA person today and our conversation beat around this very subject from a slightly different point of view and as a result I have a slightly different chunk of information. My information seems to add to the confusion, but shows logic as it is applied to our system of doing business.

The AMA does NOT create a sanction by the hour, but does use inclusive dates. This means that the liability insurance provided by the sanction is in effect even when the CD is not present. The exact issue reviewed in discussion was maiden flights of turbine aircraft. If the CD is on site, the sanction is in effect and you must follow the rules during the hours of the event. The site owner insurance is still there late in the evening when the CD vacates the premises and you can do your test flight.

There is a difference between the responsibility issue and the insurance liability issue and we need to make sure we do not cross them up in our minds or discussions. The CD does have responsibility and liability for actions taken when on site, but the site owner is covered for liability for the dates of the sanction.
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Old 03-14-2005, 05:04 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility


Hi Gordon

The insurance certificate issued to a landlord at a non-AMA chartered club field is good for the 24 hour period of the sanction date... subject to the attendance of the CD or rep. If the CD leaves, he should stop all flying as a courtesy to the landlord. Courtesy, heck, he owes it to the landlord to protect the landlord's butt.

In the case of the nite flying jet, I never agreed with Dave Brown. This was a matter of perception on the part of Dave Brown, and not a matter of rule. I would not have agreed even if the CD were on site, and I definitely do not agree since he was off site.

Dave Brown convinced the EC to make a rule allowing only "low performance" aircraft to fly at nite. Now there is a rule, and he would have a case, whether we agree with the rule or not. He did not then and should not have made an issue of it, IMO.

CDs are volunteers. The good ones should get a free membership and those that don’t should loose their CD status. If the CD does not want the responsibility, he should quit.


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Old 03-14-2005, 05:18 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

Jim

I went though that scenario with Carl today and recieved what I thought was a different view. I will check again tomorrow. Too late today.
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Old 03-14-2005, 05:41 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility


ORIGINAL: Jim Branaum

I was talking to an AMA person today and our conversation beat around this very subject from a slightly different point of view and as a result I have a slightly different chunk of information. My information seems to add to the confusion, but shows logic as it is applied to our system of doing business.

The AMA does NOT create a sanction by the hour, but does use inclusive dates. This means that the liability insurance provided by the sanction is in effect even when the CD is not present. The exact issue reviewed in discussion was maiden flights of turbine aircraft. If the CD is on site, the sanction is in effect and you must follow the rules during the hours of the event. The site owner insurance is still there late in the evening when the CD vacates the premises and you can do your test flight.

There is a difference between the responsibility issue and the insurance liability issue and we need to make sure we do not cross them up in our minds or discussions. The CD does have responsibility and liability for actions taken when on site, but the site owner is covered for liability for the dates of the sanction.
Ahh, so the insurance for the landowner does not depoend on the CD being there. If that is the case, in the event of a liability incident, and:

a) The CD is on-site - the sanction insurance covers the landowner, and AMA could be named in a lawsuit and share liability for a judgment

b) The CD is off-site - the sanction insurance covers the landowner. AMA cannot be held liable (according to legal advice they have obtained)

Thanks for that clarification, Jim. It would be interesting to see the results of a pop quiz pulled on the CDs.

I'll have to think (ouch!) about what ramifications that might have, depending on who obtained the sanction (A club, the CD, a sponsoring vendor....), who owns the land, etc. Might not be a significant difference for most claims, but what if a real biggie, as in causing injury as horrific as Casey Rowe sustained? What if it happened due to willful negligence, as in a recent accident at a major event that thankfully did not happen, and a large punitive award were involved? Would AMA being held accountable to some degree up the ante? What is the ethical minimum to tell the site owner about what is covering his butt?

Abel



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Old 03-14-2005, 05:53 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

depending on who obtained the sanction (A club, the CD, a sponsoring vendor....),
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that ONLY CD's can obtain a sanction. No CD, no event. The event can be sponsored or whatever by whomever, and the CD's name might not be obvious in the PR material, but I thought all AMA sanction forms have to come from at least 1 CD?
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Old 03-14-2005, 06:09 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

Kirk,only the flying ones, events that is.

the ability of anyone to get a sanction for a non flying event, is probably confusing this issue a bit as well.
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Old 03-14-2005, 06:12 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

Well, that did not take long. I just recieved a call.

1. The landlord insurance is in place for each day of the sanction on a 24 hour basis starting at 12:01 AM on the date of the sanction. The comings and goings of the CD have no affect on the landlord insurance.

2. The sanction itself is subject to the comings and goings of the CD. If he, or his representive, are on site, the sanction is in place, on the date of the sanction. The sanction has nothing to do with advertised hours. Any time the sanction is in force (the CD is there) he has authority on the date of the sanction.

My error for not listening more closely the first time.
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Old 03-14-2005, 06:16 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

This ask a lot of the landlord. When the event stops for the day, there are alwauys associated activities going on even if it is JUST packing up the show to move on. If the CD leaves and some on fires up an engine to clean out the gas and the airplane takes off across the tarmac creating a claim, it is on the landlords insurance?
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Old 03-14-2005, 06:17 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

Ah, thanks Mongo, I have 0-zip knowledge or experience with non-flying events and whatever is involved with them. If I wind up involved with one, I'll have to read up. It's good to know what I don't know, you know?

J_R, so, in the case of an event at a club field, the event starts and stops with the CD's presenance for the whole day? Intersting. I guess that means that if I run an event at my home field, I can't sport fly after the contest is long done, and all the competitors are gone. I should stay home, just in case some goofball club member does something stupid while I'm around. Strange. But I guess that also means that I can keep someone I don't like from flying on that day, huh? That could be fun [>:] (just kidding about that part)
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Old 03-14-2005, 06:20 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

gow,

No, the landlord is covered. That's bullet 1) in J_R's post. The "landlord insurance" J_R is talking about is the insurance from the AMA to protect the landlord during the event.
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Old 03-14-2005, 06:38 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

ORIGINAL: Montague

gow,

No, the landlord is covered. That's bullet 1) in J_R's post. The "landlord insurance" J_R is talking about is the insurance from the AMA to protect the landlord during the event.
Just the landlord?
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Old 03-14-2005, 06:39 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility


ORIGINAL: Montague

Ah, thanks Mongo, I have 0-zip knowledge or experience with non-flying events and whatever is involved with them. If I wind up involved with one, I'll have to read up. It's good to know what I don't know, you know?

J_R, so, in the case of an event at a club field, the event starts and stops with the CD's presenance for the whole day? Intersting. I guess that means that if I run an event at my home field, I can't sport fly after the contest is long done, and all the competitors are gone. I should stay home, just in case some goofball club member does something stupid while I'm around. Strange. But I guess that also means that I can keep someone I don't like from flying on that day, huh? That could be fun [>:] (just kidding about that part)
What would you do if you were not at a sanctioned event, not a CD, not a club officer, and some goofball did something stupid? Isn't that really the question?
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Old 03-14-2005, 06:44 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility


ORIGINAL: gow589

ORIGINAL: Montague

gow,

No, the landlord is covered. That's bullet 1) in J_R's post. The "landlord insurance" J_R is talking about is the insurance from the AMA to protect the landlord during the event.
Just the landlord?
Any AMA members insurance is always in force if the Safety Code is followed. There is no AMA chartered club field involved in this case, so no club insurance in place. If the event is at an AMA chartered club field, the landlord's and club's insurance is always in place. The club's insurance is always subject to the Safety Code, the landlord's never is.
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Old 03-14-2005, 07:12 PM
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Default RE: AMA sanctions and the need for CD responsibility

1. The landlord insurance is in place for each day of the sanction on a 24 hour basis starting at 12:01 AM on the date of the sanction. The comings and goings of the CD have no affect on the landlord insurance.

2. The sanction itself is subject to the comings and goings of the CD. If he, or his representive, are on site, the sanction is in place, on the date of the sanction. The sanction has nothing to do with advertised hours. Any time the sanction is in force (the CD is there) he has authority on the date of the sanction.
And this is news to one that is out to inform all the uninformed CDs???

To those that commented about AMA's CD programs and/or rules being somewhat "unruly" let me say that this one totally agrees with you. A few years ago I was on an AMA committee to right some of the wrongs. The committee consisted of AMA Dist. XI DVP Bruce Nelson, D-V Jim McNeil and myself. Only one person prepared a study and that person received NO assistance or input from either McNeil or Nelson. What they may have conspired among themselves was never revealed to me.

My treatise clearly defined and labeled problems, objectives, criteria, and suggested solutions for attaining those objectives reference many improprieties definitely attributed to poor EC leadership and action. Of course the study was filed in the proverbial round-file 13 and subsequently the magnificent garbage called "CONTEST DIRECTORS" was injected into your AMA Rule Book and Membership Manual. That item is so bad that even I feel ashamed for those that placed it in official publications under the AMA.[&o]

Don't hold your breath until AMA will right the wrongs extended the Contest Directors. It started when then AMA Pres. Lowe and AMA Tech Director Bob Underwood eliminated the automatic awarding of Leader Member to any CD that completed his first year and event/s and submitted proper report/s. "L", neither even had any idea where such authority or practice was authorized. Well guess just who showed them the EC action that started it. [>:]

It still continues.

Hey, on the lighter side, for you newer AMA members, remember to hang on to that bag of marbles AMA sent you when you first joined AMA. You know that you are supposed to throw away one marble each time you participate in an organized event, contest etc. Then when you have lost all your marbles, you get to be a Contest Director!
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