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Does AMA have a real future?

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Does AMA have a real future?

Old 03-29-2005, 07:53 PM
  #51  
Hossfly
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Default RE: Does AMA have a real future?

I also fly quite a lot in my own yard these days which is something I never did a couple of years ago. I honestly think park flying something more than a passing fad simply because convienient and the planes have become quite capable in the right hands.

I'm not quitting my club. I still like my big planes, but I can see how some people could be quite happy flying nothing but small parkfliers and never miss the AMA or what it might have to offer them.

Wiz
[X(] Wow, has this thread ever slid off the rail? Initiated as a political statement in hopes that someone might actually nominate me for AMA EVP other than my local buddies which I am NOT soliciting from, here we go again all about park fliers and their worth, their flying facilities, etc., etc., and so forth. Well folks, in this old modeler's opinion, the changes have happened many times in the history of model aviation. The advent of the gas engine back around '33 shook the current-at-that-time rubber powered fliers all to "L". Gas made rubber obsolete overnight as a contest item pitted against gas.

Today, gas survives, and so does Rubber-Power which is a model flight art-form all its own.

Control-Line "killed" Free-Flight. Both survive today.

.35 - .65 CL was the vogue, then Ray Arden did his thing, the GLOW PLUG, and then the 1/2 A (.049 and there abouts) brought CL back to the local schoolyards and backyards, another "technology" item that was going to shoot modeling down. Actually it did just the opposite as it kindled new interests and rekindled old interests, with new growth in the hobby.

Radio Control started in the '30s. It became the vogue in the '60s. RC snobs abounded. Still do. Yet, there are still those that fly rubber, FF, CL, and even gliders. Along the mid-'80s if one did not fly those gigantic "Big-Birds" of 80" wingspan or larger then one was truly only for walking on. Now an 80" w/s model airplane is no big deal. Is this sport/hobby great or what? So much for so few. [sm=thumbup.gif]

Now on one hand, the "park-fliers", whatever they really are, will destroy the sport. On the other hand they will help it grow. Who is right? Some speak of "data". Who gives a 'shot' other than the gut feeling as one sees in one's own community? In my opinion, as I said in the first post of this thread, park flying only proves one thing which is the INTEREST IN THINGS THAT FLY IS NOT DEAD which is a welcome sign to me.

There are other items that indicate to me that there are some people in AMA that have their thinking cap on. Personally I am usually most impressed with one Mr. Steve kaluf, Technical Director. He runs a well organized shop and he obviously is very interested in how the overall model aviation operation moves along with current technology. I think his April 2005 article is excellent. He mentions a number of problems and the various directions that might be taken. Mr. Kaluf even called to attention a less than popular thing he suggested about CL Pull tests. From the quoted letter from the CL Speed group, I think that the group greatly over-reacted to Mr. kaluf's inquiry. In addition I think the North American Speed Society is just a bit overly pompous.

This is illustrated simply to evidence how things said can be altered by those that are so anxious to "Disagree" . It seems that some here are of the opinion that my proposed method of gaining an increase in AMA membership is to court the park fliers. Nothing could be more wrong. The park fliers, having demonstrated interest in both model flying and things that fly, then they are, IMO, prime subjects and promise for new converts. However, the big item to gain AMA members is through making so many people within the entire populace aware of the overall sport of model aviation, not just some specific group.
When I owned a Hobby Shop in Mt. Prospect, IL, if all the model airplane kits that just I sold had been built and taken to the flying fields, I think all the sites in greater Chicago Land would have been flooded with airplanes. I doubt that more than 2% ever made it to a flying field. Right now, just from the local HSs stock, reading the magazines, etc. I feel that if 2% of the non-club-member "park-fliers" could be lured into the AMA, then the administrative staff would be seriously loaded. So while the park-fliers are many in number and have the interest, as an AMA officer, I would not support any significant expense to pursue them.

To build the AMA back up into a viable organization supporting all the disciplines, both in competition and sport, providing a suitable liability insurance, totally dedicated to the advancement of model aviation through publicity and education, and sincere help in establishing flying facilities are all definite objectives should I be allowed to serve as the AMA Executive Vice President.

The ball is in your court.






Old 03-29-2005, 08:17 PM
  #52  
gow589
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Default RE: Does AMA have a real future?

Horrace, J_R, others, a question.

Everyone refers to AMA as an insurance group, as pushing other benifits aside. What benifits does the R/C comunity gain from the AMA in both short term and long term.
Old 03-29-2005, 09:13 PM
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Default RE: Does AMA have a real future?

Red wrote this a few years back. Although a little dated, it still covers the question better than anything else I have seen.

*****



> But, the reason I ask is this. Everything I have ever done I
have
> supported the National Association. I shoot so I am in the NRA. I
trap
> so I am in Fur Takers and the National Trappers Assoc.. and the list
> goes on and on. Supporting your hobby and/or sport is just
something I
> believe in doing.

You have probably stated the very best gut reason for joining the AMA. You want to support the organization that represents your hobby or sport.

Like the NRA, the AMA promotes the hobby it represents, sets rules and safety guidelines, charters clubs, sanctions competition, and is the official national body for the hobby.

Like the NRA, there are some warts. There are things that could probably be done better, there are some things that should be and are not being done yet, but like the NRA there are limited resources in getting some of these things implemented and there is a broad divergence in the membership as to which is most important and an even larger portion of the membership could care less. Or at least they don't care enough to even vote when there is an opportunity to change the make up of the AMA Executive Council.

* * BENEFITS OF THE ACADEMY OF MODEL AERONAUTICS * *

PROGRAMS
1. Sanctioned Competitions with over 2,500 annually
2. Assistance in getting and keeping flying sites
3. National Safety Advisory Program and Safety Codes Standard
4. Annual Youth Scholarship Program
5. Youth Education Programs
6. Club chartering Program provides club and site assistance to
almost 2,400 clubs
7. Dues structured by age groups ? younger and older modelers pay
less
8. Opportunity to serve in leadership roles of Contest Director or
Leader Member
9. World Championships Teams selected and financing
10. Support and promotion for the sport of aeromodeling for schools,
service groups and clubs
11. Air Show Team Program offers demonstrations of model aircraft to
millions of people
12. Club Officer Recognition
13. Members elect corporate officers ? annual elections
14. Mall Show Program for clubs
15. Historic Preservation and Research (Museum, Archives, and Library)
16. Introductory Pilot Program
17. Attend major modeling trade shows for member assistance and
provide public awareness
18. Conduct volunteer program for member's participation of the
International Aeromodeling Center activities
19. Opportunity to be an elected corporate board member and vote in
behalf of the district
20. Leader club recognition
21. Hobby shop display for AMA information center
22. Hall of Fame recognition
23. Experimental Aircraft Inspectors for models over 55 lbs.
24. Turbine Waivers for jet pilots


SERVICE

1. Liability Coverage for Operations of Model Aircraft, Boats, Cars
and Rockets
2. $2,500,000 Comprehensive General Liability Protection for model
activities for members, clubs, site owners and sponsors
3. $25,000 Accident/Medical Coverage for members
4. $10,000 Maximum Accidental Death Coverage for members
5. $1,000 Fire, Theft, and Vandalism Coverage for members
6. Primary Site Owner Insurance ? $5,000,000 each location
7. Published???Financial Information, Contest Calendar, Construction
Articles and News
8. Non Profit status to retain income as a Tax Exempt organization
under IRS Section 501(c)(3)
9. Accumulated assets ($11 million)
10. Safeguarding radio frequencies through liaison with Federal
Communications Commission
11. Achievements recognized through the Awards Program
12. World Record performances processed through F.A.I.
13. Contest scheduling coordination to avoid conflicts
14. National Records recognized and recorded
15. Liaison maintained with major Government agencies (Corp. of
Engineers, Navy, Air Force, Army, Marines)
16. Film Library with rentals available to members, clubs and general
public
17. National Museum ? Frank V. Ehling National Model Museum ? free
admission to all members
18. Museum Store for visitors
19. Museum Patron Program
20. Support and sponsorship of technical meetings
21. American representation to the Federation Aeronautique
Internationale (FAI), Paris, France
22. Over forty full time staff members, dedicated to serving all
aspects of aeromodeling interests
23. The National Center for Aeromodeling, the world's only full?time
model aviation facility
24. Lee Renaud Memorial Library ? more than 25,000 publications and
books with research service available
25. Specialty member programs offered only through AMA membership ?
Optional insurance, Credit Cards and Eye Care Discounts
26. Serving aeromodeling since 1936???now over 60 continuous years
27. Fax?on?Demand for forms and information 1?800?500?3139
28. Affiliate of National Aeronautical Association
29. Web page on Internet ? Information dissemination
30. Internet E?mail ? to improve ease of communications
31. Federal land use with Department of Interior
32. District meetings for in person contact
33. Free 800 number for member service
34. Administrative staff to assist with explanation of various
programs
35. Coordination with Federal Aviation Administration to promote safe
regulations for flying models.

EVENTS

1. National Championships, world's largest model airplane meets
2. World Championships and other special activities hosted
3. Development of new outdoor promotional modeling events


PRODUCTS

1. Model Aviation Magazine ? The Voice of Aeromodeling News
2. Standardized competition rules ? the Rule Book
3. Field Safety and Frequency Posters
4. Modeling publications available at discount through Supply &
Service Department
5. National Newsletters for clubs
6. Delta Dart Kit for introduction to aeromodeling
7. Hobby Shop lists for promotions
8. Club Labels for promotions
9. Club Newsletter Labels for promotions
10. Museum newsletter Cloud 9 for patrons
11. Competition license for sanctioned events
12. Advertising about the Association Services in other modeling
publications



The negative points on the AMA are that too few modelers ever get involved in the organization, just joining so that they can fly at AMA chartered clubs. The AMA has to operate then, on very little input from the membership and only hears the *****ing when they do something a member finds does not fit his or her personal agenda. While there are exceptions, these same individuals usually don't usually get involved in running their local clubs or contributing anything of a positive nature at the local level either. While you will hear that the AMA does not communicate with the membership you will find that they do this quite well in their monthly magazine Model Aviation.

Unfortunately a vocal few of the members just don't take the time to read it and would rather ***** instead. As with all generalizations there are exceptions to this. This is not to say that the AMA and its officers are without some warts. In the past they could have done a better job in some areas, but these are unpaid volunteers and it is impossible to make everyone happy. The overall operation of the AMA has been steadily improving at a faster rate than one would expect considering the apathy on the part of the membership to provide any constructive comments as to how things could be improved.

Most clubs in the country are AMA chartered clubs (this is the choice of the membership at the local level) and as such require AMA membership to fly at their facilities. Non AMA clubs are quite limited in number.

Bottom line, if all you want or need is the insurance, never plan on flying at any other club site or function, don't want a magazine that covers general aeromodeling, flip a coin. For $38 you can get insurance from the UMA (http://www.unitedmodelers.com/) or for $48 you get all the AMA has to offer.

I would encourage you to consider the later and become an active part of the modeling organization with a half-century of service to modeling.

Red Scholefield - AMA 951 IMAA 18939
District V Leader Member/CD
Old 03-29-2005, 09:23 PM
  #54  
gow589
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Default RE: Does AMA have a real future?

J_R,

Excelent list of programs, service, events, products, etc..

But I think there is more intagable benifits such as:

1. Having an organization self regulated of this size warts off further government regulations
2. Getting large groups together of special interest promote development of the hobby as a whole in numerouse ways
3. I would atribute much of the development of the model airplane and it's diversity to the organzed interest gathered by the AMA.
4. Many other benifits not easily put in words.

All of which benifits from "Organized modeling"

Before WWII, Germany pushed their youth to learn about aviation. Thus was one of the reasons Germany had so many inovative aircraft in WWII. This some times makes me think of the AMA and organized modeling.
Old 03-29-2005, 10:12 PM
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This is entirely my own opinion, so all are welcome to agree or disagree. I am not here to convince anyone of anything! I just want to share a few thoughts I have on the subject of the Park Flyers. First of all, and in my opinion, it seems to me that the majority of those that have allready joined AMA have done so for insurance reasons, or just because there Club says that they have to do it. So I believe that if the AMA can find a way to make the Members it allready has see the AMA as more than an Insurance Company, and see the AMA as an organization that you would voluntarily join because it is something that you would like to be a part of, rather then something you feel like you are forced into belonging, then this would be a major first step in the right direction!

If the AMA could accomplish this among the Membership it allready has, then the Park Flyers who have the little extra money to spend would want to be a part of AMA just to belong to something that they would be proud to be a part of. How does AMA accomplish some of this? First of all I don't think the AMA utillizes the Internet very well. I think they would do well to have there own exclusive Members areas full of good forums like here at RCU, AMA Member only auctions and Classifieds that Cater to all types of Flying. I also don't know why the AMA don't use its Membership as a bargaining tool with Manufacturers to offer Coupons and such to AMA only members which will include Park Flyers. The AMA could bargain with Manufactures, and offer Members Money Saving Coupons exclusive to AMA Members that would completely offset the cost of Membership over a years time if enough of the coupons were used. The AMA could definately throw there weight around more to get more benefits for its members. What if the AMA was able to have certain ARF Manufacturers, or Kit Manufactures produce certain exclusive AMA Airplanes that AMA Members only could order, and only one allowed per member so as not to have people ordering a bunch for non AMA Members, or have an exclusive AMA Site to order from?

A neat ParkFlyer offered only through the AMA, and only to AMA Members. I am not saying that AMA should get into the Plane Building or Distributing Business, but they could make deals with Manufacturers like Sig or Great Planes, etc. etc. In my mind you have to give people reasons why they want to join, and not make them feel like they have to join! The AMA could also use its bargaining Power with Franchised walk in hobby shops like Hobbytown, and others to offer a discount to AMA members. If you could find a way to insure that only AMA Members could get these benefits, you could also have big Distributers like Tower give special discounts to AMA only members, and figure out a way to prevent AMA Members from just giving there card to a non AMA Member to use. A good tight system would have to be put in Place to insure that only AMA Members would be able to reap these benefits. If this could be accomplished, and AMA could make people feel like the cost of Membership is offset by all the benefits, then you would see a huge surge in membership among all types of Flyers in my opinion!

AMA could offer Local MOM/POP Hobby Shops a little Free advertising among there Websites, and listings in the back of MA Mag if they become a AMA Silver Star Hobby Shop that offers a discount to AMA Members, or they could become an AMA Gold Star Hobby Shop, and recieve a Nice Spot in Model Aviation Magazine for one month if they can sell a certain amount of AMA Memberships in a years time, and remain a gold Star for every year that they accomplish that number. In return the AMA could use its Membership Numbers to draw attention to Companies that participate in helping to promote AMA.

AMA could also do well in my opinion to only let advertisers in the Model Aviation Magazine that participate in promoting AMA, and offer its Members exclusive benefits that are not be available to non AMA Members.

In my opinion, Insurance is not going to attract Park Flyers to AMA. AMA is going to have to find a way to make there Member Services so great that whether you fly a Park Flyer, or a 33% Yak, you will want to be a part of AMA. AMA also would have to find ways to use its "strength in numbers" to its advantage to offer benefits that will offset the cost of Membership, which could simply be accomplished by its bargaining power it should have with Manufacturers and Distributors.

One last thing I would think would help is if AMA recruited some spokespeople for the AMA to discuss AMA issues on an AMA Members only Forum! These way Members would actually feel that they have a voice in the AMA, and can have someone who is allowed to discuss issues about the AMA with its Membership. I guess what I am trying to say is the AMA needs to get more personal with its membership, and get more involved with communicating with the little people. Let the Members know that you genuinely care about there concerns, and get more involved in whats going on at local levels! The Members needs to feel like the AMA is working exclusively for them. I think the AMA needs a more local feel, and not such a long distance feel. Even though there Headquarters is in my neighboring state, they could be located in Germany, and would do me about as good as it does now.

I can see an exclusive AMA Member Forum of the future where people could be talking about the Newest AMA exclusive Plane for that year which is this awesome Parkflyer that will hover all day long on these new futuristic Batteries that are offered at a great price if you happen to be a member of AMA. People will be disscusing AMA like its a privalage, and not as " Well I got it just in case I injure my friend standing by me at the field!" The Insurance should just another benefit that comes with being a Member, and not the sole reason in my opinion. In the future I hope people are talking about all the cool things that come with being an AMA member, and are able to look at AMA as a great organization that benefits all those with an interest in Model Flying, and not just looked at as a State Farm or Country Companies, or a mandate to join the Club!
Old 03-29-2005, 10:14 PM
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Default RE: Does AMA have a real future?


ORIGINAL: gow589

Horrace, J_R, others, a question.

Everyone refers to AMA as an insurance group, as pushing other benifits aside. What benifits does the R/C comunity gain from the AMA in both short term and long term.
There is no doubt that AMA is much like Government. It takes YOUR money, and displays no product in the market place. When I think that some form of government gets over 50% of my money in taxes, fuel, income, property, sales, excise, and a number of others, I feel much less inclined to support the government than many here seem to feel about not supporting AMA.
Until now AMA has had only ONE item to sell and that is the Insurance program. The Chartered Clubs have been AMA's only sales force. Like government which produces NOTHING, the inside administrative force can only justify itself through administrative bureaucracy.

Therefore when one asks such a question as above, the first thing that comes to my mind, rather than answers, is how does the person asking such a question perceive the differences between impalpable and tangible products?

As a model airplane person since first grade, 41 years of professional aviation, an ardent contest modeler for a number of years and one that still likes building as much as flying, likes promotion of the sport, at times likes helping others to learn the sport, recognizes the need for strong leadership within a strong central organization for the sport, and other such factors, then it may well be difficult for the lesser passionate modeler, especially the one more into just flying, to fully appreciate whatever my list of benefits might be. As an example, the socialist's attitudes of government's responsibility to the people differ greatly
from my beliefs in where the individual is much more responsible for himself, and government is there basically only for the protection of the nation.

The AMA provides: (Not copying the AMA web list of benefits)

A system of organized modeling: 1. Competition rules. 2. Structure. 3. Events happening. 4.A go-between the modeling community and governmental agencies. 5. International Recognition. 6. Potential National Recognition. 7. Overall education about what is going on around the country reference aeromodeling. 8. The potential of strong assistance for Clubs in their Flying Site acquisition. 9. Something to complain about

Without AMA you would not be flying on the frequencies you have. Without the competition, there would have been basically NO development of radios, engines and all the equipment that goes with these items and the hobby would have commercially died long ago. Back in the '70s, whatever won the NATs was a hot selling item for at least the next year and then usually for a couple years after. Resulted in several hot items and increase in sale products. Back then RCM, MAN, & FM, all told everyone what the winners flew at the AMA NATs.
With no interest, there is no structure, with no structure, there are no entrepreneurs, without entrepreneurs there are no products, without products there are no customers, without customers there is no interest -- FULL CIRCLE![>:] Works well in reverse -- i.e. "park fliers".

Here in this area, the first few Events this year are reporting large turn-outs, well more so that the hosts planned for. Without the sanctioning procedures of AMA, where would the information have been found? Definitely not here in the RCU Events forum!
Unfortunately, the potential loss of 900 AMA Chartered Clubs is NOT a good sign. Here as so many do think, AMA has, IMO, become far too much into insurance at the expense of the other member benefits. Insurance has brought rules to the point that many newer modelers/fliers are ready for a little Tea Party. OTOH, maybe it will be a wake-up call, and some of you people will recognize the real need in AMA Leadership that the membership constantly rejects.

Again I know that many of you dislike my straight forward talk, yet if I didn't believe in a true need for dramatic changes at AMA, then I would not be willing to spend so many of my last few years on this earth trying to initiate those changes.

I really don't have a 1-2-3 list for you. Everything overlaps. All the factors depend on each other and it all depends on YOU and your assumption of your responsibilities.

Old 03-29-2005, 10:30 PM
  #57  
gow589
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That was much my point; that the AMA has benifits for everyone that are not seen by imediate gratification. It is some times what you don't imedatly see. "I don't need AMA" even though this organized modeling is whay you can do what you do. When you say that AMA is like a government, it's actually better. The post office told me my mailbox needed to be 12" closer to the road and that my mail was hereby suspended til I moved it closer. Timing could not have been worse. I had a 5am flight the next morning and I had important mail coming. I was up till midnight digging a hole. Next morning trying to stay awake while I preflighted the airplane. I was not happy. I have not mailed a package USP since.

USP is government. To AMA we are customers.
AMA protects us from government regulation by self regulating, giving those involved an active role where as the government enacts seatbelt laws and "we are not planning on enforcing them, we just feel it's necesary to have such a law". AMA helps us keep government regulation at bay. If AMA folded, what would happen to modeling. Would government step in?
Old 03-29-2005, 11:04 PM
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Default RE: Does AMA have a real future?

ckangaroo70

Nice post. Some of the ideas have been tried in the past. Some you have put a new twist on. Perhaps the ones that have been tried before should be tried again.

Koranda has been on the job less than 90 days. Give him a few more weeks to settle in and send your suggestions to him.

JR
Old 03-29-2005, 11:16 PM
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ORIGINAL: J_R
//snip//

The AMA is a business. A business based on some very altruistic principles, but, never the less, a business. It has products just as any business does. How well they market those products will determine just how big, or small the future is for the AMA. The current EVP, Doug Holland, along with the EC saw that the time had come to quit trying to micromanage the operation and hired Koranda. Apparently, the new EC members have bought into his expertise as well. Take a look at the D 9 web site where Mark Smith gives his views in the VP’s corner. http://www.amadistrict-ix.org/VPCNR.htm
Altruistic; unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others. I don't think AMA has used that motive in at least the past 15 years in marketing the insurance program with the infamous Safety Code. Actually while AMA does have other intangible products, I don't feel they have been "marketed" to any significant amount. Of course the other AMA tangible product, the magazine "MA", has used the force-feed marketing method.

The AMA has for some years depended on the Insurance to sell AMA memberships and the sales force has been the Chartered Clubs. AMA has had nothing to do but stir the pot of its own bureaucracy.

It is a pleasure to see reported that Koranda has a management philosophy of Hire good people, get out of their way, and HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE. Will the EC also maintain tha philosophy? WOULD IT NOT BE WONDERFUL If THE VOTING MEMBERSHIP ALSO HELD TO THAT SAME PHILOSOPHY?

While AMA is a business, they don't have customers with another place to go, so AMA can well be lazy. OTOH those customers can get along without AMA, so it's not a real life-or-death matter. I relate AMA (and it is officially recognized that we are no longer the AMA -- see Bob Hunt's column next to last paragraph, MA 4/05 "They" are the AMA) and the membership as a Big Business/Employee relationship more so than a BB/customer relationship. BB/Emp. is Reward the good-ol'-boy incompetents and kick the butts of the dedicated hard-working supporters.

If Koranda is really what he says, then he has a long row to hoe. (Farm talk for you city kids) If the EC is sloughing off their responsibilities on him, what will happen when the first little cross-up happens?

It will be very interesting to see what AMA comes up with as items to convince these younger people that AMA is NOT JUST AN INSURANCE BUSINESS. We old guys know that, yet it becomes increasingly difficult to convince the young generations that all the milk is not always in the refrigerator like "Mommy" always says and does.

edited: clarification
Old 03-29-2005, 11:50 PM
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ORIGINAL: HeaterMan

Matt, I think your observations are accurate for So. Cal, So. Fla or most of the USA. Unfortunatley, the only thing the AMA has hung its hat on the last many years is the availability of insurance. As long as a club required you to join the AMA (and the main reason you wanted to join that club was to get access to a flying site) they pretty much had a monopoly, because you had to join the AMA in order to have a place to fly. With Park Flyers/Electrics, a "flying site" is not quite the same as it used to be. Now it is not necessary to join the AMA just to get access to a "flying site". I can go down to the school soccer field, football field, etc. No noise and nobody pays much attention. Except the next generation of "Park Flyers"! And they just want to know where you bought the plane. Until the AMA finds something that entices the Park Flyers to pay an annual dues, they are not going to attract many flyers. And paying annual dues to get a magazine and membership card is not going to do it. Being in this hobby off and on for over 40 years, I've been a AMA member during the times I have been active. But other than Insurance and a discount on a dorm room at the Lake Charles nats sometime in the early 70's, I'm not sure what the AMA has provided me.

Hugh

AMA 825815
LSF 2298
K4HLH
Hi Hugh

Was there a time that you were involved in competition? Did you view having rules and sanctioned events an advantage?

I only ask because you mentioned attending the NATS.
Old 03-29-2005, 11:54 PM
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ORIGINAL: gow589

J_R,

Excelent list of programs, service, events, products, etc..

But I think there is more intagable benifits such as:

1. Having an organization self regulated of this size warts off further government regulations
2. Getting large groups together of special interest promote development of the hobby as a whole in numerouse ways
3. I would atribute much of the development of the model airplane and it's diversity to the organzed interest gathered by the AMA.
4. Many other benifits not easily put in words.

All of which benifits from "Organized modeling"

Before WWII, Germany pushed their youth to learn about aviation. Thus was one of the reasons Germany had so many inovative aircraft in WWII. This some times makes me think of the AMA and organized modeling.
The AMA has a rich and storied history. The problem is that todays potential members are looking for personal benefits now, not history. The AMA must find a way to appeal to todays newbie, without having to rely on what was done in the past.
Old 03-30-2005, 12:00 AM
  #62  
gow589
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Default RE: Does AMA have a real future?

ORIGINAL: J_R

The AMA has a rich and storied history. The problem is that todays potential members are looking for personal benefits now, not history. The AMA must find a way to appeal to todays newbie, without having to rely on what was done in the past.
True, but AMA must get a grasp of what they actually have to offer before they can offer it. "Come be a member".. They are asking "Why..." Insurance? yes, but more, a lot more. That's why tired rates don't fly. Organized modeling, pooling recources within the clubs and the AMA to make an organization, build structures, have events, develope modeling. Just because they fly small airplane doesn't mean we should discriminate. Everyone get's a lot more than what is apparent. AMA must demonstrate that.
Old 03-30-2005, 07:48 AM
  #63  
Mike Wiz
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So while the park-fliers are many in number and have the interest, as an AMA officer, I would not support any significant expense to pursue them.
This seems to be a new idea. "Lets not go after the parkfliers as new members because they are unreachable". That may be true. OK, what about current AMA members who have converted to parkfliers? Are the number of converts significant? If not now, do you think they will be significant? Are they unreachable too? If so, why?

I'm sorry I don't have answers to those questions. I'm hoping somebody here in this thread does....at least in part. I'm worried that parkfliers are a lot bigger issue than some here in this thread think. I could see a very large portion of the AMA membership (sport fliers mainly) switching over to parkfliers. Not all at once, but in baby steps.

Wiz
Old 03-30-2005, 09:03 AM
  #64  
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Default RE: Does AMA have a real future?

To anyone interested ,
If the average ParkFlyer could save 10% on most of his or her purchases throughout the year just for being an AMA Member. I would dare to conclude that this would be a nice savings over a years time for the average Park Flyer, and maybe even enough to offset some if not all the cost of AMA Membership! Now take someone on the opposite end of the scale who is flying a $10,000 Plane, and he or she also got to save 10% just for being AMA. Now maybe I am dumb, but I don't know anyone who is not happy when they can save a few bucks, or in the case of the $10,000 Plane alot of bucks.

I personally don't mind paying the $58.00 a year for AMA. I spent several thousand dollars last year on my hobby, so the $58.00 was not that big of expense compared to other things I bought.....but someone on a very tight budget, or someone not looking to invest much of there money in the hobby, then $58.00 becomes a big deal. Even people who have alot of money to spend may not want to invest as much into as alot of others do. This is why I think you need a product discounts program to help lure the people in who are real thrifty with there money. YOU HAVE GOT TO GIVE THE PARKFLYERS A REASON TO WANT TO JOIN!

I am AMA because I basically believe in what it stands for, even though I may not agree with how some things are done. It personally gives me a little peace of mind to have a little additional insurance secondary to my Homeowners if an accident occurs, and I enjoy the Magazine about as much as I do the others I get....

In my own personal opinion, Parkflyers are not going to be enticed to AMA over Insurance though is my point. Some of these Parkflyers will convert over to bigger and more powerful stuff which will get them to thinking about AMA Insurance, but to try to pick up a large amount I think you are going to have to offer them some very tangible benefits that would not only benefit them, but any member of the AMA. The philosiphy behind what AMA is supposed to represent is great, and the alot of great things have been accomplished by AMA for its members, but most ParkFlyers will never know anything about what AMA does, or has done because they don't give them the initial reason to get interested! Just my 2 cents, and I welcome any corrections, as I never profess to be right on much!
Old 03-30-2005, 12:44 PM
  #65  
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Default RE: Does AMA have a real future?

The best idea that I have heard so far, to offer a discount on park flyer equipment for holding a full AMA membership. Could the AMA beat the parkflyer manufacturers at their own game and offer their own line up of heavily discounted kits?The magazine could also furnish up to date full size plans and articles for do-it-yourself foam flyer types.
Old 03-30-2005, 02:09 PM
  #66  
P-51B
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Default RE: Does AMA have a real future?


ORIGINAL: P-51B


ORIGINAL: J_R



1966 insurance program for landlords starts with 166 AMA chartered clubs and about 20,000 members already existing

1980 about 1300 AMA chartered clubs are in existence
1980 AMA membership was 77,736

2004 about 2500 AMA chartered clubs are in existence
2004 AMA membership about 160,000

Up until about 1983, the FCC required a license to operate an RC “station”. The number of AMA members ran about 1/3 the number of FCC licenses. Unfortunately, the comparison is no longer available because of the discontinuance of the licenses.


So how do those numbers compare with the rate of population growth in this country?
ORIGINAL: J_R

P-51B

Drink some of Matt's coffee, eat some of gow589's dougunuts, get on Google and find out for us.
Actually, the us census page has the info: http://www.census.gov/population/censusdata/table-2.pdf

In 1960 the total U.S. population was 179,323,175

In 1970 the total U.S. population was 203,302,031

In 1980 the total U.S. population was 226,542,199

In 1990 the total U.S. population was 248,709,873

In 2000 the total U.S. population was 281,421,906


So, the AMA was about 0.01045% of the U.S. population in 1966,

and around 0.00057% of the U.S. population in 2004....looks like the AMA is losing ground. Time for some coffee and doughnuts.


Old 03-30-2005, 02:46 PM
  #67  
J_R
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Default RE: Does AMA have a real future?


ORIGINAL: P-51B


ORIGINAL: P-51B


ORIGINAL: J_R



1966 insurance program for landlords starts with 166 AMA chartered clubs and about 20,000 members already existing

1980 about 1300 AMA chartered clubs are in existence
1980 AMA membership was 77,736

2004 about 2500 AMA chartered clubs are in existence
2004 AMA membership about 160,000

Up until about 1983, the FCC required a license to operate an RC “station”. The number of AMA members ran about 1/3 the number of FCC licenses. Unfortunately, the comparison is no longer available because of the discontinuance of the licenses.


So how do those numbers compare with the rate of population growth in this country?
ORIGINAL: J_R

P-51B

Drink some of Matt's coffee, eat some of gow589's dougunuts, get on Google and find out for us.
Actually, the us census page has the info: http://www.census.gov/population/censusdata/table-2.pdf

In 1960 the total U.S. population was 179,323,175

In 1970 the total U.S. population was 203,302,031

In 1980 the total U.S. population was 226,542,199

In 1990 the total U.S. population was 248,709,873

In 2000 the total U.S. population was 281,421,906


So, the AMA was about 0.01045% of the U.S. population in 1966,

and around 0.00057% of the U.S. population in 2004....looks like the AMA is losing ground. Time for some coffee and doughnuts.


After the coffee kicks in, check your numbers.
Old 03-30-2005, 03:18 PM
  #68  
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Default RE: Does AMA have a real future?

[X(]Ah...good catch, that's what I get for not double checking [:@]

1966 (averaging 1960 and 1970 census) 20,000/191,312,603=0.0001045 or 0.010%

2004 (using 2000 census data) 160,000/281,421,906=0.00056854 or 0.057%

It does make a difference when you do both calculations the same way!


Seems we are gaining ground...slowly. I'll go have a double sized double caffeinated now.
Old 03-30-2005, 03:33 PM
  #69  
J_R
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Default RE: Does AMA have a real future?

It's probably not a reasonable comparison to compare before and after insurance ('66 and '04).

Comparing '80 at about .034% to 2004 at .057% is probably a more fair and meaningful comparison. It truth, I am not sure just what it does mean, but, it is a 40% increase in the penetration of the total population.
Old 03-30-2005, 06:58 PM
  #70  
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Default RE: Does AMA have a real future?

actually, comparing the 80 and 2000 numbers would be most accurate, as the 2004 number is just an extrapolation, as far as population goes.
Old 03-30-2005, 07:29 PM
  #71  
J_R
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Since the difference in AMA membership between 2000 and 2004 is less than 500 members, I doubt that sufficient additional information would be be worth the effort.

Anyway, you know what they say: Statistics lie and statisticians are damned liars.
Old 03-31-2005, 10:59 AM
  #72  
Hossfly
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Default RE: Does AMA have a real future?

ORIGINAL: J_R

Since the difference in AMA membership between 2000 and 2004 is less than 500 members, I doubt that sufficient additional information would be be worth the effort.

Anyway, you know what they say: Statistics lie and statisticians are damned liars.

Well JR, I think your statistics are, shall I say, grossly in error.

Statistics from the head-shed say:

2000 165,365
2001 170,754
2002 173,420
2003 168,075
2004 163,709

>>> "....2000 and 2004 is less than 500 members,"...<<< More like 1656 with significant rise and fall in between.

Actually, in 1991 AMA had 168,190 members at year's end. In '97, the figure was 149,700. then back to the high of 2002.

So, ups and downs have happened before. I would prefer all UPs, however I ain't yet running for the bomb shelters.

EDITED to ADD:

If just 50% of the loss from 2002 through 2004 were open adult paying members (4855) then the financial loss would amount to $281,590.00. If almost all were open, it could well have been over a half million. Lots of money to throw away just for the sake of chasing after investment schemes. AMA needs a new CFO!
Old 03-31-2005, 11:29 AM
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Default RE: Does AMA have a real future?

Horrace

In a post in this thread (#12) you stated that your loss in the EVP election played a significant role in your resignation of the D VI VP position. You made a very impassioned case that your personal work load and family financial concerns were the major reason for your resignation. Certainly no one would expect you to sacrifice your family for the AMA.

Is it not a fact that AFTER you resigned, you continued to run for EVP? Why was it that you considered the EVP position would be so much less of a load on your personal time and finances that you would be able to perform that job, but not the DVP job?

JR
Old 03-31-2005, 12:13 PM
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Default RE: Does AMA have a real future?

EASYTIGER

Since, according to Mr. Cain, you have “a record of spouting history as he himself so writes it”, let's allow Mr. Cain’s own words to jog your memory. Please keep in mind that submissions to Model Aviation Magazine appeared in the issue dated about 3 months after the submission was made (i.e. a December submission likely appears in the February issue of MA). EASYTIGER, perhaps you can explain to me why the EVP position would have reduced the personal issues that Mr. Cain had with the VP position to make the EVP position less burdensome on him. By the statements in his April '82 column he did not know he had lost the election until after his resignation as VP had been tendered. The Minutes show that he submitted his resignation before the January '82 EC meeting. EASYTIGER, I hope Mr. Cain has been helpful in refreshing your memory.

ORIGINAL: Hossfly (post #12, this thread)

During that time, Fall of '81, I ran for EVP, and if plurality had been effective then --as now -- I would have moved into that slot. Unfortunately in the run-off, I did not win. That loss plus a very big down-slide at work created a situation where I could no longer accomplish a fair duty for those I represented. Something had to give. The AMA DVP was that something.
I was flying for UAL and I was a DC-8 First Officer. There was a large reduction in UAL's pilot force. In Jun. '81, I was surplussed from the DC-8, back to the 727 FO, then to the DC-10 2nd/O position and then in Feb. '82 back to DC-8 2/O. In 7 months while doing a LOT for AMA, I had to attend THREE 4-week UAL schools for requalification in different equipment. (Without computers back then it took time to communicate with the Clubs.) Besides being ready to sign off UAL, I had 3 kids in universities. I simply had to make a change. I did.

From the AMA News section November 1981 issue of Model Aviation Magazine,
Synopsis of August 1 Executive Council Meeting:

“b. Nominations. The names of those accepted for the 1981 election ballot are: Secretary/Treasurer--H. Cain, H. Crispin; District I—E. Izzo, J. Smith; III-D. Brown, E. Witt; V—B. Mathews; VII H. Brodersen; IX—T. McGinnis; XI—H. Smith, E. McCullough.”

***********

From the AMA News section, February 1982, Model Aviation Magazine, District VI Report

Quote Horrace Cain:

“And, now for the finale: Jim Sears will at some time this year assume this postion of AMA District VI Vice-President. Jim resides in Burgin, KY, and is a computer analyst for IBM. He is a hard worker and will do a fine job. Exact details and time will be announced at a later date. Happy Landings! Happy New Year!”

************

From the AMA News section, April 1982 edition of Model Aviation Magazine, District VI Report.

Quote Horrace Cain: first paragraph of the report:

“Notice: Jim Sears, Burgin, KY, is the new Vice President for AMA District VI. Due to changes in the AMA Bylaws, I thought it better to do this early and assure you of a good working VP.”

Quote Horrace Cain: last paragraph, same report:

“So, my friends, if I’m your AMA Secretary/Treasurer (Executive Vice President – new Bylaws), then you will be hearing a lot more from me. If not, then I’ll see you around a few of the Q-500 races this year and some fun flies next year. It’s 1/4-Scale for this lad, so win or lose, let’s keep in touch. Again, thanks to all of you—it’s been a great time for me. FRIENDLY SKIES FOREVER!”

*************

From AMA News section, May 1982 edition of Model Aviation Magazine

Synopsis 1/30/82 Executive Council Meeting:

“ 1. VP Replacement. The President noted that Horrace Cain, former Vice President of AMA District 6 had resigned on January 22, in accordance with Bylaws in effect at the time, and that Associate Vice-President, Jim Sears, Burgin, KY, was then automatically named District 6 VP based on previous Executive Council decision.”

“3. Runoff Election. It was announced that Jim McNeill had won over Horrace Cain by an almost 2 to 1 margin and was therefore the new Executive Vice-President and chief financial officer of AMA, in accordance with the Bylaws changes which established the new title in place of the former Secretary/Treasurer position.”





Old 03-31-2005, 10:43 PM
  #75  
EASYTIGER
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Default RE: Does AMA have a real future?

Thank you, JR.

There is more to that story, too.

Remember this: it's a democracy. Your elected officials NEED to be able to work with others, acheive comprimises that will accomodate the majority. That is our oftimes ponderous but usually fair American Way. So make sure your EVP nominee is someone who knows how to work with others...not someone who wants to "do it their way". Some people have had previous problems working with others. They want it all their own way. That's not what working for AMA is all about, is it?
So be very careful here.

I don't think the AMA is flawless, and I think there are plenty of things to criticize, but you guys have been dancing around a golden calf, a false idol, for a long, long time. I don't believe the intentions are to help AMA or advance the cause of model aviation...I think it has been a personal vendetta for a long time.

But, you know, the people will vote, and you will see that if you actually want to make changes, you will need to find the right candidate, one who has his heart in the right place and is actually electable. Too many people still have a bitter taste in their mouth.

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