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flying behind the flightline

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Old 04-07-2005, 01:41 AM
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XpastywhiteboyX
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Default flying behind the flightline

Hello all,

Im the VP of my club and recently we had a blowout in my club. I am hoping to save someone out there some greif. Untill now we had a curved flightline. What i mean by this is runway in front and off to the north side (behind the runway) we alowed parkflyers and foamys to fly. To the south side helicopters. We asked the AMA if this was legal or if we needed to change it well oviously it clearly states NO FLYING BEHIND THE FLIGHT LINE. We were frusterated because no one wants foamys out over the runway wile your landing your 40% carden. We found this to be obserd but had to enforce it. One of us decided to fight it. We found out that you cant fly behind the flightline but nothing says you cant have more than one flightline. So to make a long story short we now have 3 flightlines. I hope someone can learn from this.
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Old 04-07-2005, 08:06 AM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

ORIGINAL: XpastywhiteboyX

Hello all,

Im the VP of my club and recently we had a blowout in my club. I am hoping to save someone out there some greif. Untill now we had a curved flightline. What i mean by this is runway in front and off to the north side (behind the runway) we alowed parkflyers and foamys to fly. To the south side helicopters. We asked the AMA if this was legal or if we needed to change it well oviously it clearly states NO FLYING BEHIND THE FLIGHT LINE. We were frusterated because no one wants foamys out over the runway wile your landing your 40% carden. We found this to be obserd but had to enforce it. One of us decided to fight it. We found out that you cant fly behind the flightline but nothing says you cant have more than one flightline. So to make a long story short we now have 3 flightlines. I hope someone can learn from this.
I am a little confused about the initial problem. If you had a curved flight line then no one was flying behind it right? We have had some issues similar to that in our club. It is something the AMA needs to address better. The needs for the club and flight areas in this respect are different then they used to be. The aircraft and their flight envelopes are so much different.
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Old 04-07-2005, 08:51 AM
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Jim Branaum
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

That has been discussed many times and there is no reason to change the AMA rule as the allowance for a curved flight line is the correct answer and it satisfies the AMA requirement and your needs.

Since they use multiple flight lines at Muncie one can ASSUME it is within the rules. Hard to tell as there have been times when clubs were required to step up to and maintain a higher standard than was enforced at the black hole of modeling.
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Old 04-07-2005, 10:00 AM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

"black hole of modeling" .... now that's a new one!

Jerry
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Old 04-07-2005, 12:08 PM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

I think it's a bad solution, to set up adjacent flightlines. I want to fly at a flightline where I know no one's flying behind me, or off to my side, within a range of about 400'.

I have seen a novice with a helicopter, flying at the North end of a North-South runway, let his model get away from him. In about 2 seconds it was behind us flyers, behind the spectator line, and on the South side of our shelter, doing the chickenwalk. It covered almost 300' in a flash. Luckily no one was hurt.

In my opinion, 400' is not too much distance to ask for, when placing flightlines near other flightlines. Even better, let everyone take off from the runway, and move the models out over the flyover area for all maneuvers.

Best wishes,
Dave Olson
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Old 04-07-2005, 12:37 PM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

What works for one group may or may not be safe for another. As an example, sailplanes have different needs in clubs devoted to sailplanes than 42% gas planes would at a club for powered flight. You would probably not need 400' at a park flying site. It is up to the individual or club to come up with rules that make sense, and keep the site safe.

This is the actual Safety Code Rule (RC #3): At all flying sites a straight or curved flightline must be established, in front of which all flying takes place. Only personnel associated with flying the model aircraft are allowed at or in front of the flightline. In the case of airshows, demonstrations, or competitions, straight lines must be established. An area away from the flightline must be maintained for spectators. Intentional flying behind the flightline is prohibited.

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Old 04-07-2005, 12:40 PM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

ORIGINAL: J_R

What works for one group may or may not be safe for another. As an example, sailplanes have different needs in clubs devoted to sailplanes than 42% gas planes would at a club for powered flight. You would probably not need 400' at a park flying site. It is up to the individual or club to come up with rules that make sense, and keep the site safe.
That is why I say with the advance in all types of flying the AMA could really address this issue as a whole. There has become a real mix of flying. I am not sure they know what to do about it.
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Old 04-07-2005, 01:14 PM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

By “they”, I assume you mean you and your club, and its officers. We (the AMA membership) just got rid of a Safety Code that tried to cover too many aspects of safety. It was unwieldy and had become so ambiguous that it had little meaning to the average member. The rule is simple enough: separate people from aircraft and do it with a flightline designed for the site that is safe.

Is there some issue within your club that prevents open discussion and coming to a reasonable solution? This problem is not new. It has existed about forever. FF, CL, RC all mixing at one site has presented the same issues. Conceptually, there is nothing new here.
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Old 04-07-2005, 01:20 PM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

ORIGINAL: J_R

By “they”, I assume you mean you and your club, and its officers. We (the AMA membership) just got rid of a Safety Code that tried to cover too many aspects of safety. It was unwieldy and had become so ambiguous that it had little meaning to the average member. The rule is simple enough: separate people from aircraft and do it with a flightline designed for the site that is safe.

Is there some issue within your club that prevents open discussion and coming to a reasonable solution? This problem is not new. It has existed about forever. FF, CL, RC all mixing at one site has presented the same issues. Conceptually, there is nothing new here.
At our club the Helicopters were way off to one end, behind the fence. They had a flight line which crossed the airplane flight line. Not only is it a long ways away but also seperated by a couple fences. AMA said they could not do it and that they had to move to the same flight line the aircraft were on. Now we have Helecopters on the aproach end where the airplanes are. Our club isn't that big and everyone works together but you can see the lack of forward thinking on there part.
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Old 04-07-2005, 01:25 PM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

As in black hole you throw money down. You know about those, don't you?
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Old 04-07-2005, 02:17 PM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline


ORIGINAL: XpastywhiteboyX

Hello all,

Im the VP of my club and recently we had a blowout in my club. I am hoping to save someone out there some greif. Untill now we had a curved flightline. What i mean by this is runway in front and off to the north side (behind the runway) we alowed parkflyers and foamys to fly. To the south side helicopters. We asked the AMA if this was legal or if we needed to change it well oviously it clearly states NO FLYING BEHIND THE FLIGHT LINE. We were frusterated because no one wants foamys out over the runway wile your landing your 40% carden. We found this to be obserd but had to enforce it. One of us decided to fight it. We found out that you cant fly behind the flightline but nothing says you cant have more than one flightline. So to make a long story short we now have 3 flightlines. I hope someone can learn from this.
The situation you describe is very similar to one of the clubs I fly at. The main runway is E-W and flight stations are on the N side. Helis fly to the NE and behnd the main flightline. Park flyers and sailplanes fly to the NW and behind the main flightline. Turbines use the main flightline, and nobody else flys while they do. It just makes sense to keep the slower and hovering models separated from the airspace occupied by fast pattern, sport and warbird models. JR posted the applicable rule re 'curved flightline.' Don't know who you asked at AMA or why, but whomever, my response to him would be that we are compliant with the Safety Code by having a curved flighline as prescribed, and it happens to be an oval around the pits and parking area.

Abel
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Old 04-07-2005, 07:44 PM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

with the hobby completely changing over the past 3 years rules have to change to acomidate the new flight envalopes. Like i said in the first post we dont want foamys flying over the runway, they need to fly behind the flightline. We cant tell them to pack it or smack it we need their dues to keep the club arround and its not like they need us, they can go to a local park and fly. so by them flying at out club they are really only benifiting us. This is why we needed to find a "loop hole" to alow our curent situation to continue.
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Old 04-07-2005, 08:47 PM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

I was just wondering what you did in the three years prior to the foamys to support your club

Lonnie
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Old 04-07-2005, 10:53 PM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

Several have assumed your flight line looks sorta like a U. Well if everyone is INSIDE the U, it should work just find. However if all are OUTSIDE the U, it just ain't gonna work.

CrownVic asked a good question.
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Old 04-08-2005, 07:25 AM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

Some people at my club have a problem with this as well. WE fly to the east, heli's to the north and foamies and CL to the south
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Old 04-08-2005, 09:32 AM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

If the AMA wants to atract more "park fliers" and others, this is something they certainly could address better. At least open it up to the membership for discussion as to solutions for this. Airplanes fly in so many more flight envelopes then they did 15 years ago and they aproach it as if everyone were all flying .40 size sport planes and that a single flight line will work for everyone. What's worse is some people get away with workable solutions till some one finds out in the AMA and tells them they can't do it. Each club seems to have a different story.

I think it is something they certainly need to look at.
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Old 04-21-2005, 02:32 PM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

I'm glad you brought this up Pasty.At Marymoor there is a similar problem.As a matter of fact we used to have two seperate flight lines for helicopters and planes.One midair between the two and no more dual flight lines.Now Heli's and planes fly on the same runway.TOTALLY WEAK!!!!!!!Now it's so much harder on everyone.Well, I don't care but beginners have a hard time landing with a heli flying.Now with foamies,I fly off to the side out of the way.Try landing when 6 or 7 foamies are buzzing over the runway.It is neat to watch them scatter.Just seems safer to have them off to the side.

scotyC
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Old 04-23-2005, 04:31 PM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

Scott,

I hope you were intentionally exaggerating when you mentioned 6 or 7 foamies scattering. 6 or 7 airplanes in the air at the same time from one flightline gets to be pretty confusing, if not dangerous. I've seen it done at fly-ins but each pilot had a caller. We only have 4 pilot stations on one flightline and don't allow over 4 planes in the air at once.

I seem to perceive an attitude in this thread and others that "foamies" don't deserve the same respect that, say, a 40-size trainer does. I don't see why a small electric airplane doesn't deserve the same right-of-way at the club field that a 40% aerobatic bird does. We all pay the same dues. We all have to observe the same safety rules, or the club's safety officer isn't doing his job. Maybe if we abandoned this perception that some types of models are more deserving of respect than others, we'd be able to enjoy ourselves with less discord and with more safety.

CR
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Old 04-23-2005, 05:37 PM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

Charley,
I disagree slightly. With a spotter, the number of acceptable aircraft in the pattern goes up to eight or nine.

However, as seen in other disappearing threads, there are no Safety RULES rather gentlemen's agreements that many violate. According to most, if I can fly it in my driveway there are no rules that need to be followed. Foamy incidents at major modeling activities seem to reinforce and support that thesis and it will probably be tacitly approved by the lack of attention the AMA publicly gives that event.

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Old 04-23-2005, 06:24 PM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline


ORIGINAL: Charley

<snip>
I seem to perceive an attitude in this thread and others that "foamies" don't deserve the same respect that, say, a 40-size trainer does. I don't see why a small electric airplane doesn't deserve the same right-of-way at the club field that a 40% aerobatic bird does. We all pay the same dues. We all have to observe the same safety rules, or the club's safety officer isn't doing his job. Maybe if we abandoned this perception that some types of models are more deserving of respect than others, we'd be able to enjoy ourselves with less discord and with more safety.
Hi Charley-
At a club I fly at, not sharing the same airspace with models widely disparate in size and speed isn't due to a lack of respect by the big guns, but rather mutual respect for the rights of all to enjoy their own chosen aspect of the hobby. Having the helis off to one end and behind the approach path from the main runway, and glider guiders and park flyers at the other end and behind the main departure path just means more us of can fly simultaneously without interfering with each other. When I am flying a PF, I prefer this as I can fly it close in where it is easy to see what I'm doing, which would be too close to the flightline per club safety standards when flying from the main runway. At a distance that is comfortable for me with a 14 oz 3D aerobat, I would be right over the C/L of the runway, and it's understandable that would be annoying to guys that are flying large glow and gas models. The only time everybody else stops to allow one group to operate is when the turbines are flying, and they have been good about sticking to particular hours one day a week. No problem I've heard voiced by anybody over that - few would want to share air or RF space with them, and most enjoy watching the show. No formal club rules concerning this arrangement, it just happens by mutual agreement among most members of the club that actually fly. There are as always a couple of roolz freaks, and when present, everybody accommodates them by flying only from the runway.
I sure agree with you in general about abandoning the elitest attitudes, but if the field can safely accommodate different sorts of models in their own quadrant of the airspace, no need to get into right-of-way 'politics.'

Abel
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Old 04-24-2005, 02:49 AM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

<rant>
I don't fly Scarymoor much any more... the one flight line fits all is really lame. I haven't rejoined the club this year and probally won't until they diversify their flight line. I'm moving more into electrics now cause I can fly them just about anywhere... club or no club.
</rant>
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Old 08-30-2005, 12:38 AM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

Because you have some big fancy high dollar plane should the foamies as you put it have to fly somewhere else? Gee sounds like typical club to me. This is a whole lot of posts of exactly why I don't belong to a club or fly at a club feild. Would my Seagull Models PC-9 be allowed to fly near your big ol airplane?
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Old 09-06-2005, 11:37 AM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

I have to agree with Cowboy here.... Seems to me if there is a problem, then there are some club members who are the problem... We have a good mix of folks... From electic park's, small glow, large gas, and helli's both electic and glow.. If you are not comfotable with someone else flying, don't take off.. or if you are up and they take off land... We talk on the flightline.... and keep each other informed as to what we are going to do.. We have one guy who only flies 40-60 size scale military acft... Flies very well and scale.. but will land when to or three others take off... That is how he is.. when others land, he will take back off.. I am new at this... only been flying since 2002... and there are some I am not comfotable up in the air with.. and I'm sure there are some who are not comfortable with being up with me....

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Old 09-09-2005, 04:33 PM
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Default RE: flying behind the flightline

After reading all the posts this seems like an interesting discussion to me. My club doesn't have the room (both ground and airspace) to have separate flight lines. We don't have any helio guys (well I think there may be one in training), and the field can't handle turbines. I've flown at our field when electric guys have been up with glow planes. Because most of the electrics fly slower than the glows it can make for some difficulties, but communication and courtesy can go a long way. The club had designated one night for just electrics and gliders. The only glow that can fly that night is one that is used to launch the gliders. This seems to work.
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