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Safety issue at non-ama field

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Old 06-11-2005, 09:07 PM
  #51  
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Default RE: Safety issue at non-ama field

"I won't be talked down to, I won't be made a fool of, I won't be laid a hand on, I treat all people this way and I expect the same in return. "-Marion Wayne in THE SHOOTIST

And if someone talks down to you, or makes a fool of you, or lays his hand on you, you will do what? Shoot him?
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Old 06-12-2005, 01:50 AM
  #52  
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Default RE: Safety issue at non-ama field

Hey Tiger
Please drop us a note on the Basin Thread and we will look for you out there.
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Old 06-12-2005, 07:45 AM
  #53  
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Default RE: Safety issue at non-ama field

Well Easy, you do what you have to do. Just make sure the punishment fits the crime.
Standing up for yourself is a good thing Easy.

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Old 06-12-2005, 08:31 AM
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Default RE: Safety issue at non-ama field

Well Liberator, standing up for yourself is not always a good thing. At the flying field standing up for yourself can improve your safety or decrease your frustration level but try it on the Los Angeles freeway system and we might read about you in the newspaper. I pick my battles.
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Old 06-12-2005, 09:12 AM
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Default RE: Safety issue at non-ama field

I have a private flying site that I allow a few select friends to fly at with my permission. It is not AMA nor will it ever be. I insure it and I call the shots and that is why I do not have problems, no democracy, just the golden rule. We had some problems a few years ago when a person with my permission brought a friend and it kind of grew a bit out of hand where that friend had a friend and so forth. Well my good heart allowed it to occur and soon someone showed up (never met the person) at MY field, one morning and was doing some pretty stupid stuff (doing 3D too close to a parked real plane) and when I politely asked him to come back later and kindly leave (this was 8 am on a Sunday morning mind you), he told me that he had express permission from the owner and bla bla bla and his buddy (another person I did not know) also endorsed his ability to be there with permission, and this went on for about two minutes. Not believing I was the farm owner or owner of the real plane, he started getting real mouthy. Bottom line, he refused to leave because he was an AMA member and this was a "no dues" sanctioned field without posted rules and bla bla bla, so I had the local police (my brother in law) escort him away. That incident ended my good heart. One of the local AMA clubs that me and about 6 of my friends (that I allow to fly here) were asked to hand in our memberships because we could not play well with others at the "Renegade" field!
I am still a member of the AMA because I like to go and fly at various events in the summer. I still respect the AMA and its membership, although I do not have to like or allow them on my land if I choose not to.

The bottom line is; all those that enjoy a good flying site (AMA or not) need to respect the general consensus of what is and is not acceptable while at whatever field they are using. The respect of others needs to be just as high of a priority, for those that tend to "stretch" the given norm and those that like to impose rules and or criticism for everything. In other words, when conflicts arise (such as what this thread was started about), the parties involved need to put themselves in the place of their opponent prior to speaking or acting. Often an understanding can be easily achieved when everything is put into each others perspective. Not allowing tempers to flare and issues to fester will go a long way toward a nice place to enjoy the hobby. Remember, this is a hobby, hobbies are supposed to be fun.

Had the flyer that had to be forcibly removed from my farm that morning exercised reasonable judgment and listened to my polite and exceptionally reasonable requests, he would still be flying there today.
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Old 06-12-2005, 09:17 AM
  #56  
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Default RE: Safety issue at non-ama field

ORIGINAL: Liberator

Well Easy, you do what you have to do. Just make sure the punishment fits the crime.
Standing up for yourself is a good thing Easy.

Like...if someone talks down to you, you do what? Slap them across the face?
If someone makes a fool of you, you, what, punch them?

I'm not exactly sure how John Wayne is expecting to react to any of these affronts, except with violence. He was The Shootist, right? Last I looked, he SHOT people who "talked down to him" and such. Now, you may call me a stick in the mud, a killjoy, whatever, but I hasten to mention that this would lead to murder charges in the United States. Making a fool of you or talking down to you is NEVER justifiable homicide.
So, aside from killing them, how does the John Wayne axiom actually get applied in the real world? When someone disrespects you, you do, what, exactly?

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Old 06-12-2005, 09:23 AM
  #57  
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Default RE: Safety issue at non-ama field

ORIGINAL: Dr Nitro

I have a private flying site that I allow a few select friends to fly at with my permission. It is not AMA nor will it ever be. I insure it and I call the shots and that is why I do not have problems, no democracy, just the golden rule. We had some problems a few years ago when a person with my permission brought a friend and it kind of grew a bit out of hand where that friend had a friend and so forth. Well my good heart allowed it to occur and soon someone showed up (never met the person) at MY field, one morning and was doing some pretty stupid stuff (doing 3D too close to a parked real plane) and when I politely asked him to come back later and kindly leave (this was 8 am on a Sunday morning mind you), he told me that he had express permission from the owner and bla bla bla and his buddy (another person I did not know) also endorsed his ability to be there with permission, and this went on for about two minutes. Not believing I was the farm owner or owner of the real plane, he started getting real mouthy. Bottom line, he refused to leave because he was an AMA member and this was a "no dues" sanctioned field without posted rules and bla bla bla, so I had the local police (my brother in law) escort him away. That incident ended my good heart. One of the local AMA clubs that me and about 6 of my friends (that I allow to fly here) were asked to hand in our memberships because we could not play well with others at the "Renegade" field!
I am still a member of the AMA because I like to go and fly at various events in the summer. I still respect the AMA and its membership, although I do not have to like or allow them on my land if I choose not to.

The bottom line is; all those that enjoy a good flying site (AMA or not) need to respect the general consensus of what is and is not acceptable while at whatever field they are using. The respect of others needs to be just as high of a priority, for those that tend to "stretch" the given norm and those that like to impose rules and or criticism for everything. In other words, when conflicts arise (such as what this thread was started about), the parties involved need to put themselves in the place of their opponent prior to speaking or acting. Often an understanding can be easily achieved when everything is put into each others perspective. Not allowing tempers to flare and issues to fester will go a long way toward a nice place to enjoy the hobby. Remember, this is a hobby, hobbies are supposed to be fun.

Had the flyer that had to be forcibly removed from my farm that morning exercised reasonable judgment and listened to my polite and exceptionally reasonable requests, he would still be flying there today.
Maybe out in the Great Lakes Region, this will fly, for the most part...
The problem is, in a place like the LA Basin or Brooklyn, everything is so different, so concentrated...more people show up there in a day than to your field in a year. Imagine one of those guys, the one who got all mouthy, showing up once a DAY, not once in six years. And imagine that HE has the right to fly there, same as you, whether he is polite or has a bad attitude or whatever.
You realize, after a point, that there are certain things you DO have to put up with. Or buy your own field. Because you can spend all your time trying to "regulate" people in vain or you can ignore it and just go flying. Notice that "Eric" who is the "problem" here is still flying, while others are just whining...
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Old 06-12-2005, 09:40 AM
  #58  
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Default RE: Safety issue at non-ama field

Maybe out in the Great Lakes Region, this will fly, for the most part...
The problem is, in a place like the LA Basin or Brooklyn, everything is so different, so concentrated...more people show up there in a day than to your field in a year. Imagine one of those guys, the one who got all mouthy, showing up once a DAY, not once in six years. And imagine that HE has the right to fly there, same as you, whether he is polite or has a bad attitude or whatever.
You realize, after a point, that there are certain things you DO have to put up with. Or buy your own field. Because you can spend all your time trying to "regulate" people in vain or you can ignore it and just go flying. Notice that "Eric" who is the "problem" here is still flying, while others are just whining...
Yes, I see, That field has no golden rule! (i.e.: the landowner calling the shots), The local municipality has not posted acceptable behavior standards to those that use the field? or if they exist, are they appropriate?

However, if ALL those that used the field displayed tolerance like I mention above, things could be a bit easier on everybodys temperment.
I can agree with you, if ALL PARTIES can not change, you just must ignore and go fly as you say.
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Old 06-12-2005, 09:53 AM
  #59  
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Default RE: Safety issue at non-ama field

Well said, Dr. Nitro.
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Old 06-12-2005, 09:59 AM
  #60  
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Default RE: Safety issue at non-ama field

By the way, I do sympathize with the OP, we have had similar problems at other public fields, and the truth is the "dangerous" guy never hurt anyone, and eventually settled down to some degree(after wiping out too many airplanes), while many accidents happened with average joes flying "safely". My point, I suppose, is this...all the time and energy spent on attempting to rein in the "dangerous" member is not a good thing...if he did not comply to the local standards after the first few times, he ain't gonna, ever, unless HE wants to, so why lose any sleep over it? We had our whole club up in arms for months, and the true fact of the matter is we really DIDN'T have the right to "enforce" him(public land, he has the same rights we do) and there was no point in getting so crazy about it, it will suck the fun right out of the hobby. When he flies, if I want to, I can land.
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Old 06-12-2005, 10:12 AM
  #61  
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Default RE: Safety issue at non-ama field

Some day the bad guys will respond then it will start getting interesting, Makes it bad when names and all but the people that no the facts get involved. Then you can try to fix a proble that is out of control[:@] It gets interesting whaen you have people with the same names at different fields or are they all the same person.
The harder you push a person into a corner the harder they will fight back and dont care what happens, or to Whom[&o]
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Old 06-12-2005, 01:35 PM
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Default RE: Safety issue at non-ama field

Ok so when did I say you need to respond with violence? All I ever said was to stick up for yourself. Thats all pretty simple. Respond in kind. I guess thats hard to understand but it is what it is.

I guess if someone comes up to you and is a jerk to you Easy, you what, cower? Let that other person degrade or humiliate you? Hey do what you think you need to do Easy, God forbid you actually stand up to someone in front of you. Stay behind that computer, it's much safer.

As far as spending more time having to respond to what is apparently my naive sense of right and wrong, please recall that all I have stated is that folks should be decent to each other, thats all and for some reason Easy you feel that makes me a schmuck. Ok fair enough. I can live with that.

So do ya feel like ya won?

I sure hope so.

Have a great day!
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Old 06-12-2005, 10:09 PM
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Default RE: Safety issue at non-ama field

ORIGINAL: Liberator

Ok so when did I say you need to respond with violence? All I ever said was to stick up for yourself. Thats all pretty simple. Respond in kind. I guess thats hard to understand but it is what it is.

I guess if someone comes up to you and is a jerk to you Easy, you what, cower? Let that other person degrade or humiliate you? Hey do what you think you need to do Easy, God forbid you actually stand up to someone in front of you. Stay behind that computer, it's much safer.

As far as spending more time having to respond to what is apparently my naive sense of right and wrong, please recall that all I have stated is that folks should be decent to each other, thats all and for some reason Easy you feel that makes me a schmuck. Ok fair enough. I can live with that.

So do ya feel like ya won?


I sure hope so.

Have a great day!
I won? That's it? You need to learn to stand up for yourself!

Just kidding. Nobody is calling you a schmuck, don't project so much, you are not my enemy, you need to actually be on my list of Registered Internet Enemies and pay $5 per session to spar with me, I'm not going to fight for free.

"Let that other person degrade or humiliate you?"

Sure, absolutey! If it makes that other person go the hell away and let me get back to whatever it was I WANTED to actually do, why not?
Let me turn give YOU a movie quote in return:
"What's wrong with letting them think they won?"
-Dr. Melfi to Tony Soprano

It would be a very nice world if folks were decent to each other all the time, but, alas, they are not, confrontations happen...but you need to pick and choose your battles, if you are dead-set on "standing up for yourself" all the time, you may find your whole life defined by confrontations, and some you will win, some you will lose, in spite of you perhaps being in the right on all of those issues. The good guys do not always win. It's a shame, but it's true. But you need to know when it's just not worth it. I have learned, the long way around, that most model airplane club fracases are really about personality conflicts, and most of them are really unnecessary, sad, and unproductive.
I can think of a few years back when our then-club-president "got into it" with a local guy who was somewhat similar to the guy who the OP was talking about. Rude, risky flying, did not like anybody telling him what to do, and he was part owner of a local hobby store and he would tell his customers they could come down and fly anytime at our field without membership. Never liked the guy, he was nasty and arrogant, but I just stayed away from him. The club President felt the guy needed to be "brought down to size" one way or the other, so he made it his mission to do so...when it finally came down, the two guys went toe to toe and the offensive guy told the club president(a much smaller guy) that he could stuff it up his exhaust extension. The Club President was so humiliated he resigned halfway through his term and never showed up at the field again. Except he had the contract to mow the lawn for the rest of the year, so he had to come once a week, and he always drove by first to make sure the obnoxious guy was not there. It was a really bad situation, we lost a president who was a good club member. The obnoxious guy made it clear: we did not own the land, he was going to fly ANYWAY, whatever we thought about it. Obnoxious Guy moved to Florida a year later, problem solved, but the Ex-Club President never came back to our field. Nothing was gained, plenty was lost. Sad story.

Sooooooooooooo...unless you are the landowner, think carefully about getting into these confrontations...generally, they can be avoided, you need to take a deep breath and stand back and say:
Is it REALLY the FLYING and the SAFETY that has got me so worried, or is it just the guy itself that I can't stand?
And answer yourself honestly.
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Old 06-13-2005, 09:57 AM
  #64  
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Default RE: Safety issue at non-ama field

So where do I send the check?

Yup I agree, Easy, picking one's battles is the right way to go. And no I wouldn't have a show down on an LA freeway. (To answer BasinBum).

But unsafe is unsafe and someone actually stomping an airplane? Thats's pretty ridiculous you must admit.

Tom







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Old 06-13-2005, 10:57 AM
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Default RE: Safety issue at non-ama field

Money order or certified check, please!

The stomping thing, well, that's not right, of course, but the incident still makes me smile, maliciously, for some reason. I can't help it!


Showdowns and such, well, you really need to look and ask yourself...what exactly am I fighting about? My pride? It's really sad to see someone leave behind three kids because they had their hackles up and did not want to be shown up. I have seen that very situation, just one of the most awful things ever, the other guy is is prison for ten years or so, the fellow I knew is dead, and in the end, it was all about nothing, just pride.
Here's another quote, from a more modern Western, THE UNFORGIVEN:
"When you kill a man, you take away all he's got and all he'll ever be."
I live in the heart of Midtown Manhattan, I see all sorts of insane confrontations over nothing, you learn that in a close environment like NY(or LA) you need to learn the fine art of comprimise in lieu of confrontation. There are BIG principles that are worth standing up for, absolutely, but I don't think many of them occour at a model airplane field, you know?
I look at the OP's problem, and I wonder:
Is it REALLY that big a deal, do you REALLY want to "get into it?" Take a few steps back, relax, put some flights in, and think it through...

To basinbum and Jason, I do appreciate the invite, I am not sure about my schedule for work, this may be a busy trip, but it looks like I will be going there AGAIN next month, so I will catch you either way...
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Old 06-19-2005, 01:43 AM
  #66  
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Default RE: Safety issue at non-ama field

This sure is an exciting read...I'm going to go to the other "Basin" forum and check that one out too. I grew up going to a small hostile club where the older guys didn't want new members because they all liked taking turns flying "one at a time" in left circles, they couldn't even land to the right...they would fly over the runway diagonally, out over the extended pit line, turn left and then land...comical I thought...

I was the known rebel, however, just having learned to fly at the beginning of that summer I eventually grew out of the left hand pattern. I started practicing touch and goes to the left and to the right on calm days and learning aerobatics in the middle of the racetrack. I figured the older guys were experienced and could handle me flying at the same time as them, but they would always whine and complain when more than one plane was in the air. I always had a spotter and took pride in my on-centerline takeoffs and touch and goes. Lucky that was 14 years ago, before 3D, or I am sure I would have gotten kicked out of the club for doing a rolling harrier 20 feet off the ground right down the runway centerline...

I learned my lesson, back then I would show up early and fly my aerobatics before they got there, do touch and goes while I was the only one up in the air, and then leave early when I felt that I had worn out my welcome...pretty annoying for a 13 year old who is trying to get better and can't understand why guys that had been doing this for 20 or 30 years didn't want to improve...frustrating.

At a club I was visiting last summer we had your typical 10 guys that show up at the field, 3 or 4 older guys, 4 middle aged guys, and 2 or 3 guys in their 20's. My wife flies too, but that is another story all together... We took turns watching eachother, critiquing and offering improvements. We fly formation aerobatics in close trail or wingtip, and after our turn is over, we spot the guy who just flies in circles and humorously suggest that he do a figure 8 or a loop. I've learned that humor goes a LONG way! RESPECT goes even further, even if that person is inconsiderate to you. Good manners are contagious.
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