bj1235@iquest

My Feedback: (3)

I am a long time IMAA member. Recent discussions with several of my modeling acquaintances have concerned whether the IMAA is still a valid organization. The membership is dropping rapidly, the events are seeing lower participation, and in my area there seems to be nil interest in the group.

I have several theories as to why this may be. I would like to hear what others may feel. The IMAA censors their web site very closely, so a meaningful discussion is impossible there.

What say you???

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

Valid or viable?

Well for starters the inability of having meaningful discussions on any official IMAA medium might be part of the answer. They are the only SIG that succeeded in killing a forum set up for their (IMAA) discussions between members. VRCS, SMA, IMAC, Scale RC all have active forums for the membership and those that might be interested in becoming a member.

2nd - The BOD did absolutely nothing for their largest and most active district by not coming down on the District Director who had only TWO assistant directors and one of those was not even an IMAA member until appointed. Worse he had never flown R/C, much less Giant Scale. This individual has now nominated his toady to run in the present election. He was not good enough for an Assistant Directors appointment now the members in D-V are expected to vote for him for Director.

High Flight costs are out of control and the magazine content is significantly lacking in technical content and what it does have in some cases is wrong. The article by their electronic guru pertaining to redundant parallel packs comes to mind.

The IMAA Board of Directors has failed to recognize this is a different environment than when the organization was founded. You can shake a giant scale out of the box on Tuesday morning and go flying Saturday. Their insistence on requiring membership to fly in IMAA events has not gained them any new members. Clubs fearing a loss of participants sanction open Giant Scale events rather than sanction through the IMAA. The thought of opening up these events with a slightly different landing fee for non-members (to be applied toward membership if the individual so chooses) never occurred to them apparently.

Maybe Tom Hammer as president will bring some changes, but will they be too late? The fact that he is running unopposed may be indicative of the overall lack of interest that the Board of Directors has succeeded in creating with their collective head in the sand.

Sad in a way.

the-plumber

I too have been a long-time IMAA member and alas, have to agree with everything Red noted.

IMHO there are two overriding reasons IMAA is falling on it's own sword -

As in most other organizations the membership itself is mostly to blame for failing to exercise one of their two membership benefits - the ballot, resulting in the sad state of affairs vis a vis the Board Of Directors. You might avail yourself of the several IMAA-related discussion threads here on RCU and on RC Groups in the past year to get an idea of the sorts of shenanigans some of the BOD members have pulled in the last couple of years.

The advent of readily available giant sized ARF and ARC models virtually killed the need for an organization which had as its forte the construction and operation of giant sized models.

IMAA lead the way in building and flying giant sized models, about twenty years ago. A quick check of the on-line High Flight article archives showed that the most recent offerings date from Volume XII, and the current Volume is XXVI. Any way you want to slice it, High Flight ceased to be a resource a long time ago and is now nothing more than a simple house organ containing outdated event reports and advertising. The magazine has actually improved from its lowest point, where the most technical article had to do with assembling a _flight box kit_.

IMAA may be the dinosaur of model airplane organizations, where the head of the beast does not yet realize it has suffered a fatal blow.

bj1235@iquest

My Feedback: (3)

I would like the web addresses of the sites you mention, Fred---

It seems to me that the IMAA board has now developed to the point that it is largely devoted to sending a group of directors to two meetings a year at member expense, where practically nothing that is new or of importance is discussed. Simply reading the minutes of the BOD meetings will show this! Most of the content discussed could very easily be done through e-mail or phone calls, at much less expense.

There is only one director I am aware of who actually canvasses his membership to determine their desires on the issues. HIGH FLIGHT is so late in arriving that an entire months' worth of events has passed before the magazine arrives. (MY issue due June 1st, with the June events listed, arrived on July 5th!) The organization seems to be in dire financial straits, and getting worse. I agree that there has been a major error committed in not allowing non members to attend the fly-ins. My event alone signed up 37 new members in 7 years before this rule was enforced.

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

in reality, there are only 2 reasons for a sig.

1. to support the idea in it's infancy and represent it to the larger org until it becomes mainstream.

2. to foster competition within the sig's area of interest.

the imaa has grown out of the first reason, and their own bylaws prevent any attempt at the second.

the-plumber

Okey doke . . .

In no particular order :

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2730122/tm.htm
.
.
.
.

ummmm . . . . duh . . . .

It seems that all but one such thread has been expunged, and the remaining threads allude only tertiarily to the subject.

Wonder why anyone would want to revise history like that ? Anyway, the thread I cite above should give at least a hint as to the volatility of the accusations made against certain BOD members. Looks like both RCU and RCG opted to have get rid of the 'bad guy' IMAA BOD threads en masse.


While BOD meetings do cost money, I'm not so sure the money was badly spent and having read the allowable expenses I never have found them unreasonable. If nothing else, IMAA members can attend those BOD meetings and can make presentations and ask questions. When the BOD meeting was held at a different location and time than the Rally, a lot of members thought that was a bad idea and that the BOD was just awarding themselves a vacation at member expense. OTOH when the BOD meetings were held in conjunction with the rallies, few if any members attended and _still_ a bunch of folks complained that the BOD should not have been reimbursed for remaining at the Rally after the meeting was over. I don't think the IMAA BOD ever has managed to hold a meeting without a fair percentage of the members complaining one way or another about the cost.

I don't have a problem with _volunteers_ being reimbursed for reasonable expenses incurred while conducting the business of the organization, and I certainly think IMAA has some business that needs conducting.

I don't seek reimbursement for my volunteer AMA activities, but I do plan to write them off as contributions to a charitable organization. Then again, I won't be incurring the expense of flying across country and thus far have only been on the road overnight once, so my AMA expenses aren't anything to rave (or rage) about.

I agree and disagree, sort of.

High Flight has been in trouble since Roger Smith left the Editor's job, and say what you will about Roger Smith, the BOD, et al it remains true that the major content in the High Flight archives was contributed by members during Roger's tenure. The current Editor is swimming upstream trying to engender the sort of response from the membership which would result in decent technical articles being submitted for publication.

One only has to look at District V to see what a dysfunctional IMAA District looks like. We 'fixed' AMA's District V last Fall, and now it's time to do the same for IMAA's District V.

As to allowing non-members to participate in IMAA events, the tactic of applying their 'landing fees' toward membership has historically been greeted with derision by host AMA clubs citing the loss of profits to that club. IMAA Chapters are hesitant to use that strategy as well, and I can only surmise that it is short-sightedness on the parts of the host AMA clubs and IMAA chapters in that they are only looking at the immediate profit(s) of hosting an IMAA event rather than making an investment in 'growing' an annual event.

IIRC "Joe Nall" started out as a pretty small event, and now it's so big a great many members go but don't take any models because they know from experience they'll not get a chance to fly, but the vendor's tents and the airshow part make the trip worthwhile.

I don't have any problem with 'instant memberships' at a sanctioned event, and I certainly do agree that disallowing such on-the-spot memberships is a truly dumb idea.

I also think AMA CDs should be able to accept applications (and payments) on the spot at sanctioned events, and we know what happened to that idea.

I hope IMAA starts to get well in the coming elections, and I hope the District V IMAA members are paying attention to what's going on (or rather, what is _not_ going on) down here.

Tom Hammer did call one evening a while back, and wanted me to run for the District V slot. As I told him, my model airplane volunteering plate is full up right now just dealing with the 34 chartered AMA clubs in North Georgia. I do wish him success and have my District V ballot rat cheer in front of me. All I gotts to do now is figure out which of the two candidates for D-V Director is more worthy of support.

Jim Messer

My Feedback: (2)

I was a charter member of IMAA, and helped found the organization at Toledo in 1980. Back then, all the big airplanes were self designed, and the organization helped to promote that type of airplane. But then something happened: The IMAA got too big for its britches, and began dictating to the clubs that founded it, what they could and could not do. Our club, #003, had to tell the IMAA to go pound salt when they dictated that we could no longer fly "all scales" at our annual Scale Rally, which we had been doing for at least ten years previous. The IMAA responded by kicking our club out of the IMAA organization, as they wanted no precedent set with smaller models for others to reference.

But it didn't matter. We just had our 28th. Scale Rally, and we are still going strong without IMAA. Sadly, after 24 years of membership, I decided that IMAA is a defunct organization, which no longer serves any useful purpose, so I dropped out January this year.

This subject has been hashed and rehashed over and over again in these forums, so to answer your question, is the IMAA a valid organization?: If you paid your dues, then the answer is probably "yes". If you are like me, and didn't pay your dues, then the answer is probably "no".

Take your pick.

Hossfly

Both AMA and IMAA allow such. AMA pulled it for a short time but then reinstated it. I have been doing it and in my sanction packets there are still applications with the 30 day receipt. Still going.

One item in IMAA Bylaws does put a shade on the process so I asked my Director and the IMAA Pres.

Here is a summary of the items:

Email from Hammer and Hayden:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Keep up the good work Horrace................ Tom Hammer


----- Original Message -----
From: Tom HAyden
To: [email protected] ; [email protected]
Cc: 'Don Vineyard Sec'
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 7:11 AM
Subject: RE: Request for Guidance

Horrace

"Is it OK to allow a non-IMAA person (AMA member) to fill out the IMAA Member application, and submit the dues with application to the CD, then be considered a "....current member..." to participate in the event?"

YES, IMAA allows this and send the IMAA due to Don Vineyard.

Does IMAA object to this procedure? NO

Thanks for the help and keep up the good work. Also thanks for sanctioning IMAA,

Tom Hayden IMAA LM 069

[email protected]

740-654-4027


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:21 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Request for Guidance



Gentlemen:

Your advice is requested as I have been doing something wrong if what I have recently heard is true.

I have researched the IMAA Web site in all applicable sections, Constitution, Bylaws, Sanctioned Events, Membership, etc., and cannot find a specific item, although I found one item that may be construed to be the answer. Therefore I ask for your words.

I have not CDed an IMAA event for several years, but I have one scheduled for Oct. 01 this year. The question is:

Is it OK to allow a non-IMAA person (AMA member) to fill out the IMAA Member application, and submit the dues with application to the CD, then be considered a "....current member..." to participate in the event?

Does IMAA object to this procedure? AMA still allows such.

Several years ago when I did do a couple IMAA events, I did it, submitted the forms and monies to the IMAA, and certainly never received any instructions to amend my wicked ways!!!

If some Board action has stated such to be disallowed, then may I suggest that such be posted in the Sanctioned Events section.

Awaiting your replies. Thank You.


Horrace Cain

AMA L-93 IMAA 04598
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

As Messer says, The organization is a summary of the whole (membership).

rcamp

I was a member of IMAA for a while. Then it hit me what as asinine organization it really is when I gave thought to the requirement to be a member of the IMAA to attend IMAA sanctioned events. As an example, my club is trying to organize an IMAA event. The way I figure it, I belong to the AMA and pay my club memberships. I'm then prevented from attending an event at my clubs facilities unless I join another organization. I have some very blunt assesments of this situation.

I did not renew my application to IMAA and never will as long as this riduculous policy exists. And I will not join "at the event" either. I see this as a coarse and crude attempt to bolster membership.

Further I don't even see how this fits in with AMA requirements for event sanctions. The IMAA organization that charters the event with IMAA cannot be the same club name as an AMA chartered club, per AMA club requirements. So an IMAA chartered club sanctions an event with the IMAA, and the IMAA then turns around and sanctions the event with the AMA under an AMA charted club name. How can the IMAA sanction an event in a club's name with the AMA that is not associated with the IMAA? Whydoes the AMA allow this to be done?

If the members of both clubs were all members of both organizations I could understand. But at least in my club's case, I'm sure well less than 50% belong to both organizations. And I'm sure it happens elsewhere.

The argument has been made to me that IMAA has additional safety requirements that make it valid. I find this to be very week, as there are only a couple of additional requirements, most of those are common sense and one of the "safety" requirements is woefully deficient. Specifically the engine kill requirement. I find it bordering on negligent to allow the throtlle idle setting to be the basis for killing a spark ignition system. I've seen too many spark ignition gas engines that could not be killed by setting the throttle to a closed position. And even when they can the engine continues to run for any number of revolutions before the engine becomes starved of a combustible mixture. A radio operated kill switch should be mandatory for this to be effective as a safety requirement, as the engine will stop immediately regardless of throttle setting.

All in all, I consider the IMAA to be an organization without integrity.

F106A

My Feedback: (2)

Hi,
I'm a member for 3 reasons:
It's the Giant scale AMA SIG
I need it to fly at Warbirds over Delaware
I need it for the Binghamton Aero's fun fly.
Also, the $25.00 isn't going to break me.
BRG,
Jon

Hossfly

From your above captious efforts, I gather that you must be one of the Liberals that Regan described.

When a CD sends a class C-Restricted sanction application to the IMAA Event Coordinator, it simply is because IMAA provides some protection among events in the same area. AMA will not provide any separation protection for C-R events, either themselves or other regular C events. Therefore IMAA does the labor themselves.
This really screws IMAA as certain Clubs will sanction a "Big Bird" under AMA only, and ursup an IMAA event's already IMAA & AMA sanctioned date. BTDT and MR. DB was in the ring with me about that one.

Any club can be an IMAA chapter if there are FIVE IMAA members in the club. There is no need to use a different name.

Anyone may and can dislike whatever that one so chooses. Each of us can find fault with almost anything. If one finds fault where others ignore that specific item and/or overlook that alleged fault, then it is a personal choice. OTOH, when one concocts false information simply to have something to whine about, especially when he hopes all listeners are even less informed than himself, then the one doing such concoction is really the loser. Rather sad! []

So you all can P&M to your heart's content about IMAA. Agreed it needs some changes. However, the vast majority of you are standing on the sidelines and allowing another used-to-be-a-good-organization being washed down the drains, and you will not make a move to prevent it. As it is written: You shall reap what-so-ever you sow. [:-]

rcamp

Hossfly,

"Any club can be an IMAA chapter if there are FIVE IMAA members in the club. There is no need to use a different name."

Not so the AMA does not allow the name to be reused by another organization. Check the documentation. Or as usuall just continue to shoot from the hip.

And you really shouldn't call names so much, no matter how much you try to shroud it in political correctness. You don't have a clue as to my political leanings, strong conservative, lesser government. I don't like strong arm tactics by any person or organization.

So IMAA's total reason for existence, in your opinion is to control event conflicts.

And you talk about whinners, have someone read your past posts to you. No wonder every thread you get involved in turns into personal attacks and leads no where.

rcamp

F106A,

You need the IMAA membership to go to AMA sanctioned fun flys. I rest my case.

Jim Messer

My Feedback: (2)

Hoss: You are right on one thing. "The IMAA used-to-be-a-good-organization", and I will agree with that, but it no longer serves a useful purpose, and therefore should be flushed down the drain.

F106A: If the two events that you reference were to drop the IMAA sanction, and open it up to AMA members who don't belong to IMAA, I'd be willing to bet that their attendance would increase, and you'd be $25.00 richer. All you have to do is to look a little further west, to Olean, where this has been done, for proof that it works.

One doesn't need IMAA to put on a successful giant scale meet. We know that from experience.

iflyj3

My Feedback: (7)

A few years ago I was a member also and could see where the IMAA was headed. They did their job so well in the beginning that they failed to realize that there would be a point in time that they didn't have a job.

I said this about 4 years ago and will repeat it here.

How many here remember the March of Dimes? That was an organization that took on the task to cure Polio. Did they go away when Polio was cured? No, they refocused and became the center for birth defects. The organization was still intact and rather than fold they changed.

The IMAA has failed to see the forest for the trees. They could have morphed into an organization for 55 pounds and heavier for example. They would be the AMA SIG that set the standards for the real large planes and maybe additional insurance if you were a member of the IMAA. No, they are still wandering in the forest without a compass and will be dead before they realize it.

My opinion...and $.05

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

I agree with Mongo.

Once the special interest has become main stream, the need for the SIG is very diminished. Is this a fad ? Will the SIG be needed again in the future ?

My guess is no.

Roby

The IMAA isn't dead yet ?
What's taking so long ?

I'm going to a some what local "scale fly-in " this weekend.

It used to be a 1 day IMAA event usually attended by 12 t0 24
flyers. Several years ago the hosting club dropped the IMAA
requirements and opened it up to "all scales". What a turn around.

Now this event is 2 days long and VERY well attended . The last time
I went to this meet I had to sign up half way down the 2nd page of
the AMA form and many others signed up after me.

From what I've seen . If you want to have a good time you don't need
the IMAA. In fact , we might be better off without it. Less restrictions.

Regards
Roby

larry@coyotenet

My Feedback: (21)

When I belonged to IMMA it became quickly apparent that it really was only a version of the Good Sams Club. There was more discussions of motor home and travel trailers than airplanes. What killed me was the No Competition bs. The competition was there it just wasn't for flying skills, it was for who had the biggest RV or trailer or who brought the most planes etc. The orginization has no function. May it rest in peace.

Hossfly

One of us certaily isn't hitting the target. Any AMA Chartered Club can also be carried as an IMAA Chapter if that group has FIVE members. I belong to Jetero RC Club, Inc., AMA Charter #1218, and I remain the Texas State Coporate Representative for that specific TX Corporation under the IRS' IRC 501 (c) (7) corporation. AMA has never questioned the Jetero Charter and Jetero has been listed as a Gold Chartered Club for a number of years. Guess we are doing something correctly there.
Now, please check the IMAA Chapters and you will find Jetero RC Club, Inc listed as Chapter 148. You will find Horrace D. Cain AMA L-93, IMAA #04598 as the contact person. I submit the IMAA Chapter each year when so requested. Currently there are some 9 members of IMAA in Jetero, 130 AMA members strong.
Shooting from the Hip??? Don't think so Sir! I usually aim well and have snapped a deer's neck bone at over 75 yards with a open sight .44 Magnum single action Super Blackhawk. I have been known to place 6 consecutive rounds in the same hole in the center of a Bull's eye at 45 ft. with a .38 special. Admittedly hip shooting ain't so good, yet I seldom miss what I shoot at. BTW, as a long time deer-hunter, my score is 100%, one shot, one kill.

You are very confused with AMA's ruling that a club cannot AMA charter if it's name is the same as another AMA chartered club. Actually I haven't researched how well they enforce that hip-shot THEY made and I really don't give a small rodent's posterior about such trivial B-S.

Where did you conjure up such perception as that? IMAA as it was founded served model aviation well. It has fallen behind the times, and it needs some changes. Just because I think some changes are in order is -- in my opinion -- not a reason for ME to jump ship. If I jumped ship each time I got POed about something, I would have left AMA years ago instead of volunteering my time to help things get redirected. If I quit every time I failed to get elected to the EC, I would have been gone years ago.

As I compared you to Regan's statement, I will repeat my much earlier version that I lived by for many years: "It ain't what you DON'T know that will get you nearly as much as what you know FOR SURE that ain't so." Far too many people in my line of work had short lives because they knew so much that WASN'T SO. Like you they preferred to argue their "NOT SO" rather than researching that which is/was SO. Your call!

rcamp

Hossfly,

"You are very confused with AMA's ruling that a club cannot AMA charter if it's name is the same as another AMA chartered club. Actually I haven't researched how well they enforce that hip-shot THEY made and I really don't give a small rodent's posterior about such trivial B-S."

You've confused my statements, that's not what I said or meant at all. And the last part of that about rodent's posteriors sums up your attitude about anything you don't like or doesn't conform to your idea of how it should work. Your ability with small arms is not questioned here, but it is amusing that you inject that into the discussion. Since it's totally irrelevant I can only surmise you mean to intimidate me with your prowess. I salute you on your marksmanship and support your right to exercise it.

As far as my perception about the IMAA, the only one I have is about their irrelevance and strong arm tactics. You're the one that made the specific comment concerning their reason to exist.

About the charter issue.

From the IMAA web site, “Who are we”;
" Although IMAA is a standalone association..."
From one dictionary, “standalone: Self-contained and usually independently operating.”
From the IMAA web site, Bylaws, Article X, section 1.
"Any five (5) Members of the Association may form a Chapter serving the area in which they reside….and each Member of the Chapter shall be a Member of the Association. "

So yes, it only takes 5 IMAA members to form an IMAA Chapter. Note, this doesn't say 5 IMAA members of an AMA club. With only 9 members of your club in IMAA, how do you justify including the other 121 under the blanket membership you created with the IMAA charter. Or does that mean the other 121 get free memberships in the IMAA. Follow the logic, the club Jetero is an IMAA chapter, all members of Jetero are IMAA members, I’m a member of Jetero, I’m an IMAA member.


From AMA document 909;
"The same name cannot be used to charter a club with both the AMA and any other organization. An AMA chartered club is a unique, identifiable entity which is composed exclusively of AMA members and is protected by AMA insurance. ....
An AMA member may belong to other organizations*, but an AMA club must be chartered only with the AMA and cannot be chartered with any other organization. If a club does plan to also charter with another organization, it must do so under a different
name."

And just because you're getting away with what you do doesn't mean "we are doing something correctly there. " It just means you haven't been called to account for it and likely the AMA doesn’t have the time or inclination to pursue this. Lots of people get away with violation of the rules, be they organizational, local, state, or federal. It's no reflection on whether you're right or wrong, just that you get away with it.

I'm sure you'll have a different interpretation of the above and if you don't then your comment about rodent's will apply.

tailskid

My Feedback: (34)

I'm afraid (IMHO) IMAA is dead, it just doesn't realize it

Jerry

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

I'm way too new to know what has been happening within IMAA that has reduced it from being a viable force in the giant scale r/c community. I joined two years ago because I wanted to fly giant scale and membership in IMAA was the only way I could participate in those events. In those two years, I have seen nothing that IMAA membership has done for me beyond "permission" to fly at their events, when I can fly any giant scale plane I want at AMA events, without IMAA membership (not that I have or desire to crowd the 55 pound limit; 1/4 scale is fine for me). The magazine is unimpressive, it does have some nice warbird pics, but no info I can't get sitting around the flying field talking. Maybe it IS true they've outlived their usefulness, except to the furtherment of the "upper crust's" egos. Mine is one membership that isn't being renewed. I can use the $25 for a couple of gallons of fuel.

Both Robert and Hoss are interesting to listen to, both seem to know what they're talking about, both seem married to their respective opinions. As someone who isn't "in the know " as much, it's difficult for me to know who really is shooting straighter, Horace's firearms prowess to the contrary. I really didn't understand the relevance of that digression to the main theme. I used to be that good with a rifle at 1000 yards, but didn't mean doodley squat anywhere else except the range.

All I want to be able to do is build as big a plane as I want, and to be able to fly it where I will, and let anybody who wants to watch do so, all safely, of course, and to do the above with other people who enjoy doing the same thing. Any regulatory folderol beyond that stifles the hobby, IMO.

Roby

IMO the IMAA offers NOTHING of any real value.

Ask yourself this.

"If I join the IMAA, what is the advantage to me that I will enjoy in
doing so " ?..........................I guess that pretty much sums it up.


Roby

F106A

My Feedback: (2)

Well, for one thing, it's the SIG for giant scale with AMA.
With the FEDS and AMA putting more and more restrictions on modeling, SOMEONE has to speak for the giant scale community.
The other thing is it's only $25.00/ yr-$2/month. I'm not rich by any means, but I can spring for $25!
BRG,
Jon

Jim_McIntyre

An outsider's view.

My one experience with IMAA.

One beautiful early morning, I loaded up my plane and proceeded for a liesurely multi hour long trip to what promised to be a great day of flying ( cool crisp morning, little puffy clouds, flat calm) at some "IMAA Big Bird Rally". I was in the best of spirits when I arrived and began to unload/assemble. I was soon told that if I wanted to fly, I would need to join the IMAA.... Ok... I asked what the IMAA was about what should I wxpect and what was expected of me if I joined. I was told about the magazine and the many events etc. etc. I was told how they didn't permit competition and how that made things much more fun (?). As someone who is very much interested in scale competition I was very underwhelmed by this point. I decided not to join but, hung around for about an hour to observe what appeared to me to be an old boys club of some rather shoddy looking aircraft (this was prior to the ARF invasion) being flown with skills to match (with a few exceptions). I don't judge the IMAA by that one experience but, I slipped away quietly and had little difficulty ( after making a couple calls ) in locating another club nearby where I enjoyed a wonderful day of flying and making new friends as a very welcome visitor. The interesting part was that most members of this local club had aircraft that qualified for the event, knew of it and chose not to attend as they too saw little value in it.

To this day, I avoid that one event and I haven't joined the IMAA... not because I have any reason not to join but, because I see no reason to join.[sm=confused.gif]