J_R

If the AMA created a new membership class, at a reduced cost, for park flyers, how should a park flyer be defined? It would have to be something that had minimal potential to do damage.

Should it require, for that license, that 27 Mhz be used? The AMA is trying to get a few more 27 frequencies. If the total was something around 10 frequencies, would you be willing to fly on 27 to be within that class even if you have better radio equipment already, in an effort to eliminate frequency conflicts?

Any other ideas that should be considered in such a move by the AMA?

JR

Crashem

JR,

Go over and ask this question on Ezone, See what they say.

The opinions of park flyers I've gotten is that they don't want or need the AMA.

IMO In all honesty the AMA really doesn't have much to offer the park flyers. They fly small light planes that don't require a dedicated field and in most cases are incapable of causing major property damage or injuries.

Please don't respond with comments about cut fingers or getting your eye poked out I qualified my statement with in most cases I realize there is ALLWAYS the exception to the rule!!!

J_R

Crashem

In some communites, there are laws prohibiting 'the operation of any radio controlled device' in a public park. Mine included. If a club of flyers went to the city with the backing of the AMA, an ordinace like that might be overturned.

These things (park flyers) are projected to sell in the millions of units. While it may not be a problem yet, they may be legislated against in your community at any time.

Just a thought

JR

Crashem

JR,

you're being to literal. These things are flown in backyards school atheletic fields , parking lots get the idea, Indoors.

The list goes on

Short of banning Radio control device within city limits its going to be hard to stop them and hard still to enforce it. They're electric make no noise and because of wind considerations are usually only flyable early in morning or just before dark.

yes you are right they are projected to sell tons of them.
do you own any?


Oh and I'm not disagreeing with I just don't think the AMA currently has anything to offer parkflyers.

BTW Parks are my least favorite place to fly. Too many people!!

J_R

Crashem

I agree. The AMA currently has nothing to offer the park flyers. What could they offer that might change your thinking?

The first time a wayward plane 'lands' on a the windshield of moving car and causes an accident, the potential is there for problems with the local folks?

The closest thing I have currently are a couple of hand launched gliders that I would certainly not consider park flyers in the context here.

JR

Crashem

I wish I could answer that for you!

All I can tell you is what I believe makes parkflyers so popular.

FREEDOM

The freedom to fly most anywhere without all the restrictions and rules that go along with most clubs. A lot of these people see themselves as mavericks going against the system.

Park flyers in general are more concerned the flying/Building

There was a thread where people stated that because of parkflyers they can and have done move flying in a year then they did before.

If you haven't already look at Ezone they had a thread on the AMA and most were dead set against it.

Believe me I've been flying on and off for 18 years But only in the AMA for 4. Simple fact is when I get tired of the politics that seem inherient with all clubs I drop out and fly by myself or do something else. Park flyers got me back in the hobby and opened up an aspect of the hobby that was never there (avage joe flying in their backyard) While I may tire of the AMA and my new club I've allways got my backyard and a parkflyer

Sport_Pilot

The AMA didn't start out as an insurance company! It started out as a national club of free flight modelers, as that was the only type of model at the time, and rubber band power only! The organized the way contests were held and promoted the hobby! If the AMA wish's to ignore this part of the hobby, then another organization will be formed! And many of those people will want to step up to glow and gas power. Ignoring park flyer's could eventually cause the death of the AMA!

Crashem

This may be true but the AMA is no longer percieved this way.

Most, not all Join the AMA so they can use a flying field!!!

Sorry I know this causes no end of arguements but what can I say.

Why doesn't somebody start I poll asking what is the primary reason people belong to the AMA?

Mine is so I can Fly at a club.

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Why would they do this? Control line members pay the same amount, so do the freeflight guys.

Flyfalcons

I don't think 'forcing' the parkflyers to use 27mhz is the answer or even a possibility. Cooperation with, and education of, the parkflyers with regard to club location is extremely important to reduce frequency conflicts. This is best done at the local level, at hobby shops and local parks. By the way I own a Tigermoth and have a blast with it.

Crashem

ME TOO!!!!!

When I was a kid we moved to the country and I grew up on an old farm (no longer working) anyhow there was wide open space but not enough to learn on and not enough for large glow powered models. I always wanted to be able to fly there clubs were and still are over 50 miles away. Anywho with todays technology and parkflyers that dream is a reality.

The parkflying movement kind of reminds me of the interest in model aviation that I "heard" about from the guys in the club.
It was always my impression that the AMA was "born" because of this interst.

Maybe we should leave the parkflyers alone. Maybe they'll form an organization that will become the competition some of you feel is needed to motivate the AMA to change?

If you use only the numbers of parkflyers sold I would think the parkflyers already outnumber the AMA membership even taken into consideration that some may already be AMA members.

smokingcrater

And many people have said those should be changed also! A majority of your $$$ goes towards the secondary liability coverage you get if flying at an approved AMA field. Liability coverage covers risk, and who has a bigger risk of damaging property/people, a 14 oz park flyer, or a 100 MPH+ glow RC?

Someone mentioned a park flyer hitting a window. In many cases, the driver would just hit the wipers and complain about the big mosquitoes! ;-)

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Since I haven't seen the numbers for myself, please enlighten me as to "majority." I have seen $10.00 tossed around on other threads.

I thought the majority of my money went to support model aviation, and one of the benefits was the secondary insurance, along with a magazine, a national flying site, chartered clubs, national competitions etc.

I don't want to start up the arguments from those other threads here....PLEASE. I just would like to know what the ACTUAL dollar amount is that supports the insurance policy.

J_R

P-51B


The cost of the policy to the AMA is ABOUT $550,000 this year. Divide that by 140,000 adult members (the juniors pay $1 and do not contribute in any material way to deferring the cost). That gives about $3.93 per adult member. Add to that the self-insured amount the AMA pays out, and it is something under $10. The exact numbers for 2002 will not be available until the audit is out in March 2003. The amount shown in the 2001 audit under 'schedules of operating expenses', 'Insurance-membership' is 539,790. It is safe to say that, currently it's ABOUT $10 per year/per adult member. That is probably slightly high, but good enough for discussion purposes, IMHO

JR

Sport_Pilot

Yeah $10 for insurance, $20 for salaries, $19, for the national site, HQ building etc., and $1.00 to support the hobby. Actually I don't know, but the above amounts seem about right to me.

Crashem

Even if the membership rate was reduced What benefits besides insurance would the parkflyers as a group get????

Please don't bother answering with the support model aviation line.

J_R

Sport_Pilot

That issue is being debated in several other threads. Any chance we can focus this one on Park Flyers? I don't challenge your right to say it, I was just hoping....

I only posted the insurance numbers because they might be relevant to the park flyer discussion.

JR

Sport_Pilot

OK,
How can the AMA support park flyers? Well they can have an electric only compitiion class for one, actually several, scale, aerobatic, etc. Lot's of people get frustrated with them when they find out that flying them is not as simple as an RC car. So how bout electric only training sites with instructors who don't mind the lack of a buddy box, they could be the same as the glow sites initially. How bout paying manufactures to put in an ad and application for the AMA in each kit, as well as a mail order of how to books that you can buy without joining. Lots of things can be done to support the hobby if you put your mind to work, instead of just holding EC meetings to figure out how to drive up profits of huge giant models.

J_R

Sport_Pilot

Looks like you have some good thoughts.

What do you guys consider to be a park flyer? Where would you draw the line for things like competition. It's my impression too, that your right, too many park flyers wind up not being flown in frustration. Even the instructions drive some people to distraction. 'Use a ruler to set the elevator level with the stabalizer'. Some of these people have no idea what an elevator or stablizer are. We can't forget that a lot of PF's are sold in toy store instead of the traditional hobby shop.

Is a park flyer defined by power? wingspan? number of functions? weight? ???? I know you guys have debated this before, but not where there are 16,000 folks, like on RCU.

JR

Dave Bowles

My Feedback: (7)

I also enjoy Park Planes and indoor Models. I don't believe the AMA is really going to be able to attract your normal guy who buys his Son a ready to fly Park Plane for his B-Day or Xmas. These folks see these as toys and nothing more . it is most likely not going to be a hobby.

Park Planes will most likely have to defined by weight and power, somewhere in the neighborhood of 22 oz total weight and around a 380 or less power plant. There are however some models that would meet these guidelines and not really be considered Park Planes. Perhaps Speed could also be a factor. There are certainly some small Glow and Co2 power planes that meet the weight. I suppose you would have to limit Park Planes to Electric only. But where does that leave Gliders, some are very light and very fast with no power at all. Can they be Park Planes ?

I do not agree that there is a lot less risk of Liability for Park Planes, Its not the severity of the injury it is the Courts you have to be worried about, you may not kill anybody , but rewards for loss of eyes sure could be high. I am not sure our insurance Carrier would even want to cover park planes for liability because of the uncontrolled flying environment . The whole reason our yearly premium is low is because of what the AMA does for safety and control .

If WE really want to take on getting the casual Park Plane pilot into the organization you are first going to have to get them Addicted to the Hobby as we are, Then in most cases they will want to expand and see the hobby part not just the recreation. Thats when you start promoting the organization , IMO this happens at the Local Level , The AMAs part will be with the Manufacturers to include Materials with Kits that provide incite to find the Clubs and contacts and give a first look at how large the Hobby is. But We the local guys are the ones who have to make ourselves available and promote the Hobby to the public with assistance from the AMA.

A S.I.G. is probably a good plan to get competition started, I could See Competition Fun Fly events as being a real attraction for small electrics as well as some Pattern type stuff, even racing.

J_R

I have been told that Li-ion batteries may change the technology of PF's dramatically. Are they already being used? Has anyone ever figured a way to determine what a PF is based on power, i.e. watts?


JR

Crashem

Yes they are being used...


Then name parkflyers was adopted beacuse this models can fly safely in small areas like local parks, size and weight is a result of this flight requirement.

By the way not all models advetised as parkflyers can fly in the same space some like the fighterbird/firebird require more room then a single soccer field so you have to be carefull

I think the manufactures are trying to catch the parkflyer craze and call most small electric planes parkflyers.

One other thing Walmart and other toy stores are selling RTF planes in the $35-$50 range two models that come to mind are the megatech B-2 and the Airhog bipe these are both available in 27-49 Mhz this are targeted at childern 8yrs and up.
Anybody gonna join the AMA at ($58) to fly a $50 plane????

J_R

Crashem

That's a great point. How much is a membership worth to someone who, realistically, will spend only a couple of hundred dollars on a complete setup?

Along those same lines, where do they find out how to get longer duration or more power? or about fast chargers? that type of information that they do need? I see some in the hobby shop asking. Do most of them seek out more information?

Would there be any downside for , say Walmart, to point them to information?

JR

Crashem

For parkflyer Info I would have to say Ezone. Ezone and parkflyers got me hooked again after a three break. After Ezone I found RCU go figure..

Would there be any downside for , say Walmart, to point them to information? Not that I can Think of only thing some of the people that work can't remember where the product is located I would be suprised if they would be helpfull in respect to furthering the AMA.


No JR, not hundreds these planes were like 44.00 complete just add 8 AA for radio and 6 DD for field charger. I'm buying one for my 8 year daughter next weekend (That my story to the wife and I'm sticking to it) the only up side vis-a-v radio interference is the box says radio range is only 300ft.

But it would probably help if people buying had some way of getting help I believe most won't stay long in the hobby.
Case in point while I was looking at them a mother and boys grabbed two of them off the shelf I happened to overhear the boys talking about dogfighting (I'm nosey by nature) any how I went over and explained two them that they had to pick one with different freqs inorder to fly them together. They really had no idea what I was talking about, nor do I think did the sales associate who happened to be there.

J_R

Crashem

If I understand you correctly, it's your view that the 'foamie's' are the bigger part of the market. Where do the 'wattage' type PF's fit in? They are what I have seen more of, maybe my observation is wrong?

Is the 300 ft range sufficient on these planes?

Crashem, you appear to be saying that there is not a normal upward path in PF's like there is in traditional RC planes. Is that the observation of most of you?

JR