Is there anyone here, like me, who doesn't care about AMA at all one way or another?
11-14-2002, 06:39 PM
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Is there anyone here, like me, who doesn't care about AMA at all one way or another?
I send in my AMA dues, get my card, pay my club dues and time permitting - go fly....
I couldn't care less what they do or don't do as long as that card lets me fly legaly, evertything else is drama!
Anbody else feel the same way?
I couldn't care less what they do or don't do as long as that card lets me fly legaly, evertything else is drama!
Anbody else feel the same way?
11-14-2002, 07:52 PM
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Is there anyone here, like me, who doesn't care about AMA at all one way or another?
Only about 90% of the membership
I am curious though, why did you post to this forum if you don't care?
JR
I am curious though, why did you post to this forum if you don't care?
JR
11-14-2002, 11:26 PM
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Re: Is there anyone here, like me, who doesn't care about AMA at all one way or another?
Originally posted by FilipM
I send in my AMA dues, get my card, pay my club dues and time permitting - go fly....
I couldn't care less what they do or don't do as long as that card lets me fly legaly, evertything else is drama!
I send in my AMA dues, get my card, pay my club dues and time permitting - go fly....
I couldn't care less what they do or don't do as long as that card lets me fly legaly, evertything else is drama!
BV
11-15-2002, 05:20 AM
#6
Re: Is there anyone here, like me, who doesn't care about AMA at all one way or another?
Originally posted by FilipM
I send in my AMA dues, get my card, pay my club dues and time permitting - go fly....
I couldn't care less what they do or don't do as long as that card lets me fly legaly, evertything else is drama!
Anbody else feel the same way?
I send in my AMA dues, get my card, pay my club dues and time permitting - go fly....
I couldn't care less what they do or don't do as long as that card lets me fly legaly, evertything else is drama!
Anbody else feel the same way?
That is sad, yet it is the custom of the current social order. OTOH, it should be that way unless you have some specific problem that needs attention. HOWEVER?????
As in many organizations, governmental, civil, Business Corporations, etc. etc. things just may not work for the overall good when the masses fail to maintain a watchdog position.
In a discussion concerning AMA Insurance, another place, another time, I responded to one question with this diatribe (ironical or satirical criticism).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
In a message dated x/x/2002 7:06:46 AM Time, XXX writes:
"I take it from this that AMA is all about Insurance and Money and without it, there will no longer be an AMA.
XXX"
My response:
I would be very interested in learning what else keeps AMA alive. As I stated before, AMA was on its way down the tubes, until the liability insurance / Charter Club program revived the near-corpse.
Today's passers-through that grab an ARF or two for a couple years, use my time to learn to fly (FREE), then move on because a few dollars for AMA and Club dues are "too expensive" and go buy a $30,000.00 Bass Boat, or a 2 month $5000.00 Deer lease, or a $5000.00 country club membership with $100.00 per day Green Fees, well friend, they ain't gonna' be no AMA anymore. So much for "LOYALTY". Modelers are a dying breed, and the 10,000 contest fliers probably will not support a 10 million dollar budget, @ $1000.00 each.
You better think about herding up one big bunch of the park fliers, and sell them some super song and dance if there is NO insurance.
Yes, INSURANCE is the ONLY thing.
Here is text from AMA document 560, supposedly aimed for Clubs. Yeah - Sure!
Concerning Corporate Officers:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Section 2. Other Officers.
The Board of Directors is authorized in its discretion to, at any time and from time to time, provide for such other officers, including Vice Presidents, as it deems desirable.
Section 3. Election, Term, and Removal.
At the first meeting of the Board of Directors, after their election annually, the Board shall select all officers of the Corporation, none of whom, except the President, shall be required to be a member of the Board. All officers of the Corporation shall hold their offices during the pleasure of the Board and until their successor or successors are elected and qualified, and the Board of Directors
may remove or suspend any officer at any time without notice and without cause by the affirmative vote of a majority of the entire Board.
>>>> "......the Board may delegate the powers and duties of such officer to any
other officer, or to any Director, ..." >>>>"The President shall be the chief executive officer and active head of the corporation, and, in the recesses of the Board of Directors, shall have general control and management of all its business affairs.">>>> Board Meetings: ".......Any meeting at
which all Directors are present shall be a valid meeting, whether notice thereof was given or not, and any business may be transacted at such meeting.
Section 5. Quorum.
A majority of the Board of Directors shall constitute a quorum for the transaction of business and if at any meeting of the Board of Directors there be less than a quorum present, a majority of those present may adjourn the meeting from time to time. The act of a majority of the directors at a meeting at which a quorum is present shall be the act of the Board of Directors." >>>>>>>Officers
Section 1. Number.
The officers of the corporation shall be a President, a Vice President, a Secretary and a Treasurer. Any two or more of the offices may be held by the same persons, but no officers shall execute, acknowledge or verify any instrument in more than one capacity, if such instrument is required to be executed, acknowledged or verified by two (2) or more officers.
11-15-2002, 06:21 AM
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I've never understood this...
I really don't understand why so many belly ache about the AMA. If you could care less then don't join. As for flying legally, the ONLY place you need AMA is at a AMA club or sanctioned event. You don't need AMA to fly normally. If you want supplemental insurance, why don't you belly aches go buy some on your own and leave the AMA to those who care?
I for one care. I like having RC freqs that are mostly interference free. I like going to organized events, both fun flys and competitions. The Mag is a little weak, but its primary purpose is to serve as a newsletter and it does that well. How about a uniform safety code? Flying site assistance? Club assistance? Contest and Event coordination such that there are not a bunch of similar events on the same day in one geographical area? Materials and such for getting youth interested in the hobby/sport, etc, etc, etc. Oh yeah, there is the insurance thing too... big deal, my homeowners would take the brunt of any claim anyway.
Just curious... those that only get the AMA for insurance. Do you fly at a AMA chartered club? Have you ever attended any local AMA sanctioned event? Do you compete in any contest? Ever been to a Rally or other big event? Not really going anywhere with this, just wanted to get a feel of how active these people really are in our hobby.
Hoss, I don't know what your beef is with doc 560. Most of the language is typical in any corporation, club etc. Presidents should have special power because they are the president. Without a quorum clause I can pretty much guarantee NOTHING will ever get done. If we need 100% to do anything I'll just step out of the meeting when something I don't like comes up... whoop, can't vote on that issue because the entire board isn't here. Show me where this language causes a REAL problem in the ability of the corp to function. I don't get it. Quite honestly if you have a problem with this wording you must have real serious problems with our federal government being a Republic.
I for one care. I like having RC freqs that are mostly interference free. I like going to organized events, both fun flys and competitions. The Mag is a little weak, but its primary purpose is to serve as a newsletter and it does that well. How about a uniform safety code? Flying site assistance? Club assistance? Contest and Event coordination such that there are not a bunch of similar events on the same day in one geographical area? Materials and such for getting youth interested in the hobby/sport, etc, etc, etc. Oh yeah, there is the insurance thing too... big deal, my homeowners would take the brunt of any claim anyway.
Just curious... those that only get the AMA for insurance. Do you fly at a AMA chartered club? Have you ever attended any local AMA sanctioned event? Do you compete in any contest? Ever been to a Rally or other big event? Not really going anywhere with this, just wanted to get a feel of how active these people really are in our hobby.
Hoss, I don't know what your beef is with doc 560. Most of the language is typical in any corporation, club etc. Presidents should have special power because they are the president. Without a quorum clause I can pretty much guarantee NOTHING will ever get done. If we need 100% to do anything I'll just step out of the meeting when something I don't like comes up... whoop, can't vote on that issue because the entire board isn't here. Show me where this language causes a REAL problem in the ability of the corp to function. I don't get it. Quite honestly if you have a problem with this wording you must have real serious problems with our federal government being a Republic.
11-15-2002, 03:56 PM
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Is there anyone here, like me, who doesn't care about AMA at all one way or another?
MonkeyBoy,
I can mostly buy into just about everything you said until you got to the last paragraph. I am not sure either of you is right or wrong. In other words, I am awaiting a legal review as there appear to be questions within the document. I suspect Horrace is wrong, but I have made mistakes also.
Your point about clubs, fields, and events is right on target. For all those who dislike the AMA I have a very simple solution that should silence the wails. I invite them leave the AMA and whatever club required them to join and go find their own places to fly without the benefits of the AMA.
In the hinterlands that will probably be no problem, but those AMA members probably do not represent the loudest complaining voices. In the metropolitan areas, leaving the AMA might mean a 2 or 3 hour drive to a flying field. That is not my problem and I am not really interested in hearing from those unwilling to accept the fact that most owners of real property wish to remain so.
Horrace is right, Johnny Clemens did save the AMA by getting us involved with a salable product called secondary insurance. Horrace is also right, we (the pond scum members) need to watch what THEY (AMA EC) spend our money on. I have not seen any serious evidence of an improvement in the deliverable since we moved to Muncie which was one reason dues were raised.
We raised dues another time because there was a cash flow problem and immediately after that bought the IMS show. The logic presented to defend the action is that the earnings from the show would prevent future dues increases. Get a copy of the audited financial statements and look at page 18 carefully and see if you can figure out how much dues income was offset by the IMS show.
In 2000 the expenses were 70,924 and they went up greatly to 90,143 in 2001. All those expenses were invested to earn a wonderful 98,488 in 2000 and 115,726 in 2001. Now figure out how much dues increase that might of offset. When I do the math, the number is less than a dollar.
The problem I have with that report is that there is no way to determine if the staff travel of 94,441 for 2000 and 60,366 for 2001 (shown on page 15) is separate from the IMS show or not. In other words one way to make the IMS show more profitable is to remove some cost from it. Staff travel is an issue that may or may not be included. We cannot tell from the report.
Horrace may be wrong about many things, I tell him that frequently, but I do not think he is not wrong by saying we have to watch more carefully. I agree his methods of talking about things frequently strike me as an old dried out corncob in the outhouse, but that is his stinkin' style.
The fact that the AMA LOST almost 1/2 million dollars in the stock market should also be an attention getter, but the AMA leadership would rather that not be discussed. I am not a wealthy man to to me $500,000 looks like a heck of a lot of money to loose. There seem to be a goodly number of AMA officials that feel we only have rights to information we ask about properly and everything else can be kept carefully under wraps for release when it won't hurt or will help.
Ask yourself how the AMA built a 3 million dollar building WITH you watching. Do you remember reading about it? How about when? It was mentioned in passing in MA at least once before it was complete. I would think that with an investment that is in excess of 25% of our annual revenues, there would be a little more discussion rather that a simple presentation of a done deal.
Just my opinion, no heat intended.
Jim Branaum
AMA 1428
I can mostly buy into just about everything you said until you got to the last paragraph. I am not sure either of you is right or wrong. In other words, I am awaiting a legal review as there appear to be questions within the document. I suspect Horrace is wrong, but I have made mistakes also.
Your point about clubs, fields, and events is right on target. For all those who dislike the AMA I have a very simple solution that should silence the wails. I invite them leave the AMA and whatever club required them to join and go find their own places to fly without the benefits of the AMA.
In the hinterlands that will probably be no problem, but those AMA members probably do not represent the loudest complaining voices. In the metropolitan areas, leaving the AMA might mean a 2 or 3 hour drive to a flying field. That is not my problem and I am not really interested in hearing from those unwilling to accept the fact that most owners of real property wish to remain so.
Horrace is right, Johnny Clemens did save the AMA by getting us involved with a salable product called secondary insurance. Horrace is also right, we (the pond scum members) need to watch what THEY (AMA EC) spend our money on. I have not seen any serious evidence of an improvement in the deliverable since we moved to Muncie which was one reason dues were raised.
We raised dues another time because there was a cash flow problem and immediately after that bought the IMS show. The logic presented to defend the action is that the earnings from the show would prevent future dues increases. Get a copy of the audited financial statements and look at page 18 carefully and see if you can figure out how much dues income was offset by the IMS show.
In 2000 the expenses were 70,924 and they went up greatly to 90,143 in 2001. All those expenses were invested to earn a wonderful 98,488 in 2000 and 115,726 in 2001. Now figure out how much dues increase that might of offset. When I do the math, the number is less than a dollar.
The problem I have with that report is that there is no way to determine if the staff travel of 94,441 for 2000 and 60,366 for 2001 (shown on page 15) is separate from the IMS show or not. In other words one way to make the IMS show more profitable is to remove some cost from it. Staff travel is an issue that may or may not be included. We cannot tell from the report.
Horrace may be wrong about many things, I tell him that frequently, but I do not think he is not wrong by saying we have to watch more carefully. I agree his methods of talking about things frequently strike me as an old dried out corncob in the outhouse, but that is his stinkin' style.
The fact that the AMA LOST almost 1/2 million dollars in the stock market should also be an attention getter, but the AMA leadership would rather that not be discussed. I am not a wealthy man to to me $500,000 looks like a heck of a lot of money to loose. There seem to be a goodly number of AMA officials that feel we only have rights to information we ask about properly and everything else can be kept carefully under wraps for release when it won't hurt or will help.
Ask yourself how the AMA built a 3 million dollar building WITH you watching. Do you remember reading about it? How about when? It was mentioned in passing in MA at least once before it was complete. I would think that with an investment that is in excess of 25% of our annual revenues, there would be a little more discussion rather that a simple presentation of a done deal.
Just my opinion, no heat intended.
Jim Branaum
AMA 1428
11-15-2002, 04:22 PM
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Is there anyone here, like me, who doesn't care about AMA at all one way or another?
Like J_R I too bielieve about 90% + of the membership shares your truely inspiring position towards the AMA. Inspiring that is - to the AMA. As long as there are a about 100,000 of your type the AMA can run amuck and do what ever they want without you being the wiser.
BUT. . . other than that I could care less as well.
BUT. . . other than that I could care less as well.
11-15-2002, 04:40 PM
#10
Re: I've never understood this...
SNIP//
Hoss, I don't know what your beef is with doc 560. Most of the language is typical in any corporation, club etc. Presidents should have special power because they are the president. Without a quorum clause I can pretty much guarantee NOTHING will ever get done. If we need 100% to do anything I'll just step out of the meeting when something I don't like comes up... whoop, can't vote on that issue because the entire board isn't here. Show me where this language causes a REAL problem in the ability of the corp to function. I don't get it. Quite honestly if you have a problem with this wording you must have real serious problems with our federal government being a Republic. [/B][/QUOTE]
Monkeyboy, Reading 101 isn't one of your stronger points is it?
I do have a problem with any BOARD, of any MEMBERSHIP group that I belong to where that Board -- ONLY 3 members -- only 2 of which can meet at any time, and formulate any rule they so desire. This is especially so where that Group rather controls a good part of my chosen lifestyle. Examples are the attending events, contests that you mention.
All of this has happened because the sheep are so easily led. I'll be interested in how YOU weather things when they really fleece you.
Hoss, I don't know what your beef is with doc 560. Most of the language is typical in any corporation, club etc. Presidents should have special power because they are the president. Without a quorum clause I can pretty much guarantee NOTHING will ever get done. If we need 100% to do anything I'll just step out of the meeting when something I don't like comes up... whoop, can't vote on that issue because the entire board isn't here. Show me where this language causes a REAL problem in the ability of the corp to function. I don't get it. Quite honestly if you have a problem with this wording you must have real serious problems with our federal government being a Republic. [/B][/QUOTE]
Monkeyboy, Reading 101 isn't one of your stronger points is it?
I do have a problem with any BOARD, of any MEMBERSHIP group that I belong to where that Board -- ONLY 3 members -- only 2 of which can meet at any time, and formulate any rule they so desire. This is especially so where that Group rather controls a good part of my chosen lifestyle. Examples are the attending events, contests that you mention.
All of this has happened because the sheep are so easily led. I'll be interested in how YOU weather things when they really fleece you.
11-15-2002, 06:44 PM
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Is there anyone here, like me, who doesn't care about AMA at all one way or another?
Originally posted by J_R
Only about 90% of the membership
I am curious though, why did you post to this forum if you don't care?
JR
Only about 90% of the membership
I am curious though, why did you post to this forum if you don't care?
JR
Since most of the people posting here seem truly want take an active role in the AMA's affairs..... (and seem to look down on those of us who simply want to pay the money get the little card so we can fly)
I PROPOSE THAT THE AMA SHOULD CHANGE ITS DUES PRICING STRUCTURE!
To the 10% who care. You will be required to pay 90% of the AMA Costs. (This gives you full unlimited rights to complain whine, moan etc..)
To the 90% who Don't Care (JR's words not mine) You will be required to pay the remaining 10%.
By doing this I think we can make the AMA better for everyone
The 10% who are so wraped up in AMA politics can spend the majority of their "hobby income" on the AMA dues this will reduce their flying inventory (no more money for planes) And allow them to spend their free time debating (endlessly) the pros and cons of AMA decisions.
For the remaining 90% lower dues mean more money for flying and at least a 10% reduction of the number of pilots competing for air time (the remaining 10% of the AMA membership is still to busy whining about the latest AMA ruling to get out to the field)
This looks like a win-win situation to me
11-15-2002, 07:07 PM
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Is there anyone here, like me, who doesn't care about AMA at all one way or another?
Hey Crashem
You got a great idea there. The 90% could actually do that. All they need to do is generate candidates for the EC, vote them in, and you would have what you wish for.
Of course, that would then make you the 90% that care.
In the mean time, wish in one hand, spit in the other and see which fills up first. Oh.... and pay your dues with the 20% increase and don't ask why.
JR
You got a great idea there. The 90% could actually do that. All they need to do is generate candidates for the EC, vote them in, and you would have what you wish for.
Of course, that would then make you the 90% that care.
In the mean time, wish in one hand, spit in the other and see which fills up first. Oh.... and pay your dues with the 20% increase and don't ask why.
JR
11-15-2002, 07:17 PM
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Is there anyone here, like me, who doesn't care about AMA at all one way or another?
Sorry JR didn't mean to make my comment so confusing to you Bill has it right.
Would it help if I illustrated future comments with pictures?
Would it help if I illustrated future comments with pictures?
11-15-2002, 07:31 PM
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AMA dues
I think it should be quite the oppisite, I think the guys who just want to fo nothing for thier club and hobby should pay the bulk of costs and give us guys who do all the work a cost break. .
11-15-2002, 07:37 PM
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Re: AMA dues
Originally posted by Dave Bowles
I think it should be quite the oppisite, I think the guys who just want to fo nothing for thier club and hobby should pay the bulk of costs and give us guys who do all the work a cost break. .
I think it should be quite the oppisite, I think the guys who just want to fo nothing for thier club and hobby should pay the bulk of costs and give us guys who do all the work a cost break. .
I'd agree with but then you'd have to give then you'd have to give up all rights to WHINE...
Do you expect us (the 90%) to believe that you are actually capable of that!!!!
11-15-2002, 08:40 PM
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Read? I just look at the pictures!
Hossfly "Monkeyboy, Reading 101 isn't one of your stronger points is it? "
Gee Hoss, ya caught me... I just look at the pictures.
I'm not a corporate attorney; however, I am one of the majority shareholders, an officer and on the board of a business I started 15 years ago. I'm also on two other boards for Nonprofits and also an officer on one. I just looked at the language of the articles of incorporation for my business which was a boilerplate document that was reviewed by my corporate lawyer. It is basically identical to what the AMA 560 document says.
Members ALWAYS elect the board (See Article II, Section 3.) It is very common for the President to act as the Chair of the Board. There is nothing uncommon with other officers either being on or not on the board. The President is THE PRESIDENT... some one has to be in charge. That is why the President of a corp has special powers. If the President has no special powers then what purpose does that office serve?
You MUST include a quorum clause. Without it anyone can stonewall the corp by refusing to attend meetings.
You fail to point out that ALL board meetings require notice unless a waiver is provided. It is not legally possible for the board to meet unless all board members are notified or they issue a waiver of notice which would require them to be present in the first place so they are still at the meeting. The language clearly indicates that two of three board members are not allowed to meet and conduct business without notifying the third as you imply... read the full section, not just parts. However, if all board members are notified of the meeting and some fail to attend, then yes, 50% was listed as a quorum, the meeting is legal if 50% show up and all present can conduct business.
The Board ALWAYS elects the officers. Yes, by law (at least in Nebraska), officers can be paid. In fact, in a for profit Sub S corp in NE Officers MUST be paid by law. Different rules apply to non-profits.
As best I can tell your issues are with the whole idea of a corporation. Basically EVERY corporation that exists with have a nearly identical code, or articles to AMA document 560. This is standard boiler plate language. This is the way corporations have been done for probably hundreds of years. Much of this language you CANNOT change because it would violate state corporate law if you did, hence the corporate status would be revoked by the state and the corp would be defunct.
Corporations are not democracy and they run very similar to our federal government, which isn't a democracy either, it is a hybrid republic. You elect the reps and senators, but you really don't elect the President. You vote for a electoral college candidate. You have no control over who is secretary of state, who gets appointed to which committee, etc. After your vote, you have NO control. Once elected, many, like the president, have the exclusive authority to appoint people to offices, etc.
Now don't get worked up at me. You may not like how corporations are run, but that's not the AMA's fault. Talk to your state rep... it is the states that make corporate law.
Document 560 is actually another benefit of the AMA. They have provided a universal Articles of Incorporation for clubs. This will save the club attorney fees when they incorporate.
Gee Hoss, ya caught me... I just look at the pictures.
I'm not a corporate attorney; however, I am one of the majority shareholders, an officer and on the board of a business I started 15 years ago. I'm also on two other boards for Nonprofits and also an officer on one. I just looked at the language of the articles of incorporation for my business which was a boilerplate document that was reviewed by my corporate lawyer. It is basically identical to what the AMA 560 document says.
Members ALWAYS elect the board (See Article II, Section 3.) It is very common for the President to act as the Chair of the Board. There is nothing uncommon with other officers either being on or not on the board. The President is THE PRESIDENT... some one has to be in charge. That is why the President of a corp has special powers. If the President has no special powers then what purpose does that office serve?
You MUST include a quorum clause. Without it anyone can stonewall the corp by refusing to attend meetings.
You fail to point out that ALL board meetings require notice unless a waiver is provided. It is not legally possible for the board to meet unless all board members are notified or they issue a waiver of notice which would require them to be present in the first place so they are still at the meeting. The language clearly indicates that two of three board members are not allowed to meet and conduct business without notifying the third as you imply... read the full section, not just parts. However, if all board members are notified of the meeting and some fail to attend, then yes, 50% was listed as a quorum, the meeting is legal if 50% show up and all present can conduct business.
The Board ALWAYS elects the officers. Yes, by law (at least in Nebraska), officers can be paid. In fact, in a for profit Sub S corp in NE Officers MUST be paid by law. Different rules apply to non-profits.
As best I can tell your issues are with the whole idea of a corporation. Basically EVERY corporation that exists with have a nearly identical code, or articles to AMA document 560. This is standard boiler plate language. This is the way corporations have been done for probably hundreds of years. Much of this language you CANNOT change because it would violate state corporate law if you did, hence the corporate status would be revoked by the state and the corp would be defunct.
Corporations are not democracy and they run very similar to our federal government, which isn't a democracy either, it is a hybrid republic. You elect the reps and senators, but you really don't elect the President. You vote for a electoral college candidate. You have no control over who is secretary of state, who gets appointed to which committee, etc. After your vote, you have NO control. Once elected, many, like the president, have the exclusive authority to appoint people to offices, etc.
Now don't get worked up at me. You may not like how corporations are run, but that's not the AMA's fault. Talk to your state rep... it is the states that make corporate law.
Document 560 is actually another benefit of the AMA. They have provided a universal Articles of Incorporation for clubs. This will save the club attorney fees when they incorporate.
11-15-2002, 08:47 PM
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Why AMA?
I'm only venturing a guess but it would seem to me that the "issues" that are so hotly debated in this forum are generally debated by "longtimers" in the hobby. That is not meant in any derogatory way. What it means simply is that you've expanded past the simple joys of just getting your trainer up and down in one piece.
I think, and it's true in my own case, that the vast majority of people who are currently AMA dues paying members were simply told that to join the club you have to have AMA insurance. That the AMA is anything else has never been elaborated on, at least not in my case. You get your card in the mail and it goes with you to the field so that you can FLY. The next time the AMA enters conscious thought is when it's dues renewal time. After the second or third year that annual event doesn't even raise much thought anymore. Is it the club's fault? Is it the member's fault? Is it the AMA's fault?
My answer is it's probably a little bit of everyone's fault BUT the "fault line" has to lean to the guys in club, who should know that there's more to the AMA than "insurance". It leans even more heavily to the AMA. My logic for this is this: who knows better than the AMA as to what the benefits they provide are? Who has the "inside scoop" on what is really happening as far as regulations, possible government issues. and so on? Yes there is a newsletter published in the shape of a magazine. Let me ask you though, as a "newbie", what magazine do you think you're going to pick up first? SO, now we've gotten our card, have bundle of colorful magazines under our arm, and our pride and joy is flying!!! What is the AMA for again? Oh yeah, it's the insurance so I can fly at the field.
The AMA ceases to have any relevance to these guys anymore than the senator in Texas does for the guy in New York. ONLY after what usually amounts to a few years at best, longer or never for most, does our budding avaitor start to look outside of the immediate modeling activity in his area. THEN he starts to think about how the AMA influences the hobby to a greater degree than he ever imagined. Now he considers scale or pattern or jets etc. Does he now turn to the "official voice" of the AMA, MA? Maybe. Maybe to see where a contest is being held, although the big ones always advertise in the Big Mags anyway so he might not even do that. He may be interested in entering a contest and he'll check the back of the MA for where and when. If he's like me he starts to see that other than posting a schedule of events and covering modeling interests that don't appeal to me that there is no compelling reason to read too much of the magazine. It's just accepted that this thing comes with you getting your card to fly, which is why we all joined in the first place.
I guess I took a lot of bandwidth to say that the AMA does not hold a position of relevance in the majority of person's modelling lives. I think the ball gets dropped right at the beginning, when most of us are eagerly soaking up everything we can about whatever facet, if not all of them, that has attracted us in the first place. Now that we're in, we just want to fly. Now that we're "aware" of at least a little bit more of what the AMA does it just doesn't affect the way we've learned to do things to enjoy our hobby.
That's my $2.95!!!
I'm wearing my fire retardant underwear so flame away!!!
I think, and it's true in my own case, that the vast majority of people who are currently AMA dues paying members were simply told that to join the club you have to have AMA insurance. That the AMA is anything else has never been elaborated on, at least not in my case. You get your card in the mail and it goes with you to the field so that you can FLY. The next time the AMA enters conscious thought is when it's dues renewal time. After the second or third year that annual event doesn't even raise much thought anymore. Is it the club's fault? Is it the member's fault? Is it the AMA's fault?
My answer is it's probably a little bit of everyone's fault BUT the "fault line" has to lean to the guys in club, who should know that there's more to the AMA than "insurance". It leans even more heavily to the AMA. My logic for this is this: who knows better than the AMA as to what the benefits they provide are? Who has the "inside scoop" on what is really happening as far as regulations, possible government issues. and so on? Yes there is a newsletter published in the shape of a magazine. Let me ask you though, as a "newbie", what magazine do you think you're going to pick up first? SO, now we've gotten our card, have bundle of colorful magazines under our arm, and our pride and joy is flying!!! What is the AMA for again? Oh yeah, it's the insurance so I can fly at the field.
The AMA ceases to have any relevance to these guys anymore than the senator in Texas does for the guy in New York. ONLY after what usually amounts to a few years at best, longer or never for most, does our budding avaitor start to look outside of the immediate modeling activity in his area. THEN he starts to think about how the AMA influences the hobby to a greater degree than he ever imagined. Now he considers scale or pattern or jets etc. Does he now turn to the "official voice" of the AMA, MA? Maybe. Maybe to see where a contest is being held, although the big ones always advertise in the Big Mags anyway so he might not even do that. He may be interested in entering a contest and he'll check the back of the MA for where and when. If he's like me he starts to see that other than posting a schedule of events and covering modeling interests that don't appeal to me that there is no compelling reason to read too much of the magazine. It's just accepted that this thing comes with you getting your card to fly, which is why we all joined in the first place.
I guess I took a lot of bandwidth to say that the AMA does not hold a position of relevance in the majority of person's modelling lives. I think the ball gets dropped right at the beginning, when most of us are eagerly soaking up everything we can about whatever facet, if not all of them, that has attracted us in the first place. Now that we're in, we just want to fly. Now that we're "aware" of at least a little bit more of what the AMA does it just doesn't affect the way we've learned to do things to enjoy our hobby.
That's my $2.95!!!
I'm wearing my fire retardant underwear so flame away!!!
11-15-2002, 09:21 PM
#19
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Is there anyone here, like me, who doesn't care about AMA at all one way or another?
kram51
You said what you did very well. I think you are correct in much of what you say. This is one of the reasons that many are unhappy about the inability of the AMA to attract the park flyer guys as they clearly (to many old timers) represent the next generation of AMA folks.
About the only thing you really missed is why the 'old timers' fight so much (I have an idea or two, but lets hear yours{g}). If you have any insights on that subject which are not inflammatory <G>, please share them.
Jim Branaum
AMA 1428
You said what you did very well. I think you are correct in much of what you say. This is one of the reasons that many are unhappy about the inability of the AMA to attract the park flyer guys as they clearly (to many old timers) represent the next generation of AMA folks.
About the only thing you really missed is why the 'old timers' fight so much (I have an idea or two, but lets hear yours{g}). If you have any insights on that subject which are not inflammatory <G>, please share them.
Jim Branaum
AMA 1428
11-15-2002, 10:27 PM
#20
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Okay, I'll bite, again!
why the 'old timers' fight so much (I have an idea or two, but lets hear yours{g}). If you have any insights on that subject which are not inflammatory <G>, please share them.
I see the "old timers" in these posts as being pretty much the same as the "old timers" in my, or any club that I know of. They seem to argue about EVERYTHING. I try to go to the club meetings and they invariably degenerate into the same politically driven "discussions" that drive us all to not even go to the meetings! Why does this happen? Do they have less of an interest in FLYING than our newer guys? To some degree, I think they do! Crazy I know but most, not all, most of these guys don't fly that much anymore. They are the ones, in my experience, that come down to the field and maybe put a flight or two in, maybe. Their real reason for being there, and not a bad necessarily, is to be with like minded people. So, what do YOU do when you are spending time with "like minded" people. You "talk" about flying some, what that guy is doing wrong, we shouldn't allow helicopters, jets are too dangerous, why did the club secretary not do "what I said should be done", blah, blah, blah. Some, if not all, of what they have to say may have real value. It gets lost in the mindless blather that surrounds it though. That's unfortunately what most others hear. It's not uncommon for that "guy" at my club whose last approach and landing are being "scrutinized" to go over and say to the whole lot "go FLY something!". In the larger arena of the politics of the AMA, well, I think what we read just in this part of RC Universe speaks for itself. Some are simply here to learn. Some are here to forward their own agenda at anyone's expense. The drive to prove one's self right rather than say "hey, you know, your idea may be better than mine" seems to be an overriding thought process. Meanwhile the casual observer sees this and it only confirms for them what they've begun to think all along, from those first days in the hobby, THIS HAS LITTLE IF ANYTHING TO DO WITH ME FLYING TOMORROW AT THE FIELD.
My last point is this observation: If the AMA is so important, so relevant to the shared passion for flying model aircraft, why, for one, did it take this long for this type of forum to be created? Why didn't the AMA do this long ago? IF the AMA is THAT important as has been suggested shouldn't every discussion on this board, for the most part anyway, begin and end with input from the AMA?
Again, the nomex undies are firmly attached!
Mark
I see the "old timers" in these posts as being pretty much the same as the "old timers" in my, or any club that I know of. They seem to argue about EVERYTHING. I try to go to the club meetings and they invariably degenerate into the same politically driven "discussions" that drive us all to not even go to the meetings! Why does this happen? Do they have less of an interest in FLYING than our newer guys? To some degree, I think they do! Crazy I know but most, not all, most of these guys don't fly that much anymore. They are the ones, in my experience, that come down to the field and maybe put a flight or two in, maybe. Their real reason for being there, and not a bad necessarily, is to be with like minded people. So, what do YOU do when you are spending time with "like minded" people. You "talk" about flying some, what that guy is doing wrong, we shouldn't allow helicopters, jets are too dangerous, why did the club secretary not do "what I said should be done", blah, blah, blah. Some, if not all, of what they have to say may have real value. It gets lost in the mindless blather that surrounds it though. That's unfortunately what most others hear. It's not uncommon for that "guy" at my club whose last approach and landing are being "scrutinized" to go over and say to the whole lot "go FLY something!". In the larger arena of the politics of the AMA, well, I think what we read just in this part of RC Universe speaks for itself. Some are simply here to learn. Some are here to forward their own agenda at anyone's expense. The drive to prove one's self right rather than say "hey, you know, your idea may be better than mine" seems to be an overriding thought process. Meanwhile the casual observer sees this and it only confirms for them what they've begun to think all along, from those first days in the hobby, THIS HAS LITTLE IF ANYTHING TO DO WITH ME FLYING TOMORROW AT THE FIELD.
My last point is this observation: If the AMA is so important, so relevant to the shared passion for flying model aircraft, why, for one, did it take this long for this type of forum to be created? Why didn't the AMA do this long ago? IF the AMA is THAT important as has been suggested shouldn't every discussion on this board, for the most part anyway, begin and end with input from the AMA?
Again, the nomex undies are firmly attached!
Mark
11-15-2002, 10:38 PM
#21
Senior Member
My Feedback: (5)
Re: Okay, I'll bite, again!
Originally posted by kram51
why the 'old timers' fight so much (I have an idea or two, but lets hear yours{g}). If you have any insights on that subject which are not inflammatory <G>, please share them.
I see the "old timers" in these posts as being pretty much the same as the "old timers" in my, or any club that I know of. They seem to argue about EVERYTHING. I try to go to the club meetings and they invariably degenerate into the same politically driven "discussions" that drive us all to not even go to the meetings! Why does this happen? Do they have less of an interest in FLYING than our newer guys? To some degree, I think they do! Crazy I know but most, not all, most of these guys don't fly that much anymore. They are the ones, in my experience, that come down to the field and maybe put a flight or two in, maybe. Their real reason for being there, and not a bad necessarily, is to be with like minded people. So, what do YOU do when you are spending time with "like minded" people. You "talk" about flying some, what that guy is doing wrong, we shouldn't allow helicopters, jets are too dangerous, why did the club secretary not do "what I said should be done", blah, blah, blah. Some, if not all, of what they have to say may have real value. It gets lost in the mindless blather that surrounds it though. That's unfortunately what most others hear. It's not uncommon for that "guy" at my club whose last approach and landing are being "scrutinized" to go over and say to the whole lot "go FLY something!". In the larger arena of the politics of the AMA, well, I think what we read just in this part of RC Universe speaks for itself. Some are simply here to learn. Some are here to forward their own agenda at anyone's expense. The drive to prove one's self right rather than say "hey, you know, your idea may be better than mine" seems to be an overriding thought process. Meanwhile the casual observer sees this and it only confirms for them what they've begun to think all along, from those first days in the hobby, THIS HAS LITTLE IF ANYTHING TO DO WITH ME FLYING TOMORROW AT THE FIELD.
My last point is this observation: If the AMA is so important, so relevant to the shared passion for flying model aircraft, why, for one, did it take this long for this type of forum to be created? Why didn't the AMA do this long ago? IF the AMA is THAT important as has been suggested shouldn't every discussion on this board, for the most part anyway, begin and end with input from the AMA?
Again, the nomex undies are firmly attached!
Mark
why the 'old timers' fight so much (I have an idea or two, but lets hear yours{g}). If you have any insights on that subject which are not inflammatory <G>, please share them.
I see the "old timers" in these posts as being pretty much the same as the "old timers" in my, or any club that I know of. They seem to argue about EVERYTHING. I try to go to the club meetings and they invariably degenerate into the same politically driven "discussions" that drive us all to not even go to the meetings! Why does this happen? Do they have less of an interest in FLYING than our newer guys? To some degree, I think they do! Crazy I know but most, not all, most of these guys don't fly that much anymore. They are the ones, in my experience, that come down to the field and maybe put a flight or two in, maybe. Their real reason for being there, and not a bad necessarily, is to be with like minded people. So, what do YOU do when you are spending time with "like minded" people. You "talk" about flying some, what that guy is doing wrong, we shouldn't allow helicopters, jets are too dangerous, why did the club secretary not do "what I said should be done", blah, blah, blah. Some, if not all, of what they have to say may have real value. It gets lost in the mindless blather that surrounds it though. That's unfortunately what most others hear. It's not uncommon for that "guy" at my club whose last approach and landing are being "scrutinized" to go over and say to the whole lot "go FLY something!". In the larger arena of the politics of the AMA, well, I think what we read just in this part of RC Universe speaks for itself. Some are simply here to learn. Some are here to forward their own agenda at anyone's expense. The drive to prove one's self right rather than say "hey, you know, your idea may be better than mine" seems to be an overriding thought process. Meanwhile the casual observer sees this and it only confirms for them what they've begun to think all along, from those first days in the hobby, THIS HAS LITTLE IF ANYTHING TO DO WITH ME FLYING TOMORROW AT THE FIELD.
My last point is this observation: If the AMA is so important, so relevant to the shared passion for flying model aircraft, why, for one, did it take this long for this type of forum to be created? Why didn't the AMA do this long ago? IF the AMA is THAT important as has been suggested shouldn't every discussion on this board, for the most part anyway, begin and end with input from the AMA?
Again, the nomex undies are firmly attached!
Mark
BV
11-15-2002, 11:58 PM
#23
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Is there anyone here, like me, who doesn't care about AMA at all one way or another?
Originally posted by J_R
Only about 90% of the membership
I am curious though, why did you post to this forum if you don't care?
JR
Only about 90% of the membership
I am curious though, why did you post to this forum if you don't care?
JR
(Sorry JR since you have come to my support a couple of times in other threads, but people keep throwing out these unsubstantiated numbers and I figured you wouldn't get mad!)
11-16-2002, 12:15 AM
#24
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I submit to the jury . . . .
"Do they have less of an interest in FLYING than our newer guys? To some degree, I think they do! Crazy I know but most, not all, most of these guys don't fly that much anymore. They are the ones, in my experience, that come down to the field and maybe put a flight or two in, maybe."
Allow me to clarify a bit what I'm trying to say here. I was asked why I feel the "old timers" are more inclined to the verbal "banter" that can seem like, well, mindless blather, to the uninitiated. To the "newbie" I described before FLYING is his one and only goal each and every time he goes to the field. He's learning many new skills and tasks and procedures. These absorb his thoughts as he tries to integrate them in to a successful flight. I think this is even more true when the our new guy has graduated past the need for an instructor. Now he has to apply all that he's learned, to FLY I might add, into enjoying one successful flight after another. This is by no means "old hat" for him so each and every take off and subsequent landing is a real test of his abilities. Now, look down the road say 5 years. Has the flying gotten any easier? In many ways, yes! Most likely this now seasoned guy is flying faster, more capable machines with many more intricacies than his noble trainer. That's the only way to challenge himself and not be there to just "bore holes in the sky". Add another 5 or even 10 years and now our guy is an "old salt"! The flying is now almost second nature to him in many respects. He has a well rounded out knowledge of the dynamics of flight and how they interact. Here's where the story comes back around to the original question. He's developed friends, good ones, in the hobby. He has respected opinions. He now socializes more than ever now. The flying becomes the reason to be with those "like minded" people I mentioned before. Much the same as most "old timers" that play golf usually are there for the socializing and the "19th hole" than for really going out there and trying to shoot par. While he's put his usual successful flight in, he's now watching the newest new guy struggling to get his ship down in one piece. Being so used to proper technique he wonders to those around him how come this guy was signed off on and can't even execute a proper approach?! Our now "experienced" guy is also very active in the club, possibly a club officer. He is so used to the "ins and outs" of the club workings that he and the others like him talk about things that to the newer guys seem rather unimportant to why they are there, which is what? TO FLY!!!
I hope that clarifies things a bit.
I'm now wearing not only Nomex undies but now a full flame suit!
Allow me to clarify a bit what I'm trying to say here. I was asked why I feel the "old timers" are more inclined to the verbal "banter" that can seem like, well, mindless blather, to the uninitiated. To the "newbie" I described before FLYING is his one and only goal each and every time he goes to the field. He's learning many new skills and tasks and procedures. These absorb his thoughts as he tries to integrate them in to a successful flight. I think this is even more true when the our new guy has graduated past the need for an instructor. Now he has to apply all that he's learned, to FLY I might add, into enjoying one successful flight after another. This is by no means "old hat" for him so each and every take off and subsequent landing is a real test of his abilities. Now, look down the road say 5 years. Has the flying gotten any easier? In many ways, yes! Most likely this now seasoned guy is flying faster, more capable machines with many more intricacies than his noble trainer. That's the only way to challenge himself and not be there to just "bore holes in the sky". Add another 5 or even 10 years and now our guy is an "old salt"! The flying is now almost second nature to him in many respects. He has a well rounded out knowledge of the dynamics of flight and how they interact. Here's where the story comes back around to the original question. He's developed friends, good ones, in the hobby. He has respected opinions. He now socializes more than ever now. The flying becomes the reason to be with those "like minded" people I mentioned before. Much the same as most "old timers" that play golf usually are there for the socializing and the "19th hole" than for really going out there and trying to shoot par. While he's put his usual successful flight in, he's now watching the newest new guy struggling to get his ship down in one piece. Being so used to proper technique he wonders to those around him how come this guy was signed off on and can't even execute a proper approach?! Our now "experienced" guy is also very active in the club, possibly a club officer. He is so used to the "ins and outs" of the club workings that he and the others like him talk about things that to the newer guys seem rather unimportant to why they are there, which is what? TO FLY!!!
I hope that clarifies things a bit.
I'm now wearing not only Nomex undies but now a full flame suit!
11-16-2002, 12:16 AM
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Is there anyone here, like me, who doesn't care about AMA at all one way or another?
P-51B
I just figure that since only about 10% of the membership bothers to vote, as in the Presidential election last year, that the other 90% don't care. Might be the wrong conclusion, but, it works for me.
kram51
Now you have me curious. Who do you consider the 'oldtimers' on here and how old do you think each is? If you don't mind telling us, how old are you?
JR
I just figure that since only about 10% of the membership bothers to vote, as in the Presidential election last year, that the other 90% don't care. Might be the wrong conclusion, but, it works for me.
kram51
Now you have me curious. Who do you consider the 'oldtimers' on here and how old do you think each is? If you don't mind telling us, how old are you?
JR