Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
03-10-2006, 07:06 AM
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
ORIGINAL: STLPilot
Sorry, but your wrong, the personal liability is held to the owner of the pole or chain, since it's their chain that caused the accident, whether it was tresspassing or not.
I have just 2 words to say, PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!!!!! Riding any vehicle at night, at hight speed, on property you shouldn't be on in the first place, no one else,s fault except your own. Any other court in any other country you wouldn't stand a chance of suing anybody.
Ever heard the old story about the robber that came into your house and fell down and sued you, we'll don't think that's an urban legend, because it's not.
If you put up a fence that is not clearly identified then YOU are taking the responsibility.
Why have a pole across a road if you are not going to mark it as private property?
03-10-2006, 07:22 AM
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
He didn't say personal responsibility, he said personal liability for one thing.
True not "necessarily" 100% accurate, it comes down to you're lawyer v. my lawyer and local laws. Had there been a sign clearly identifying the deadly object, then the property owner has more grounds for dismissal then the ATV rider. Did you read about my analogy of the "beware of dog" and "danger high voltage" on private property?? It was accurate. I can name 1000 other signs used in/on private/public property which is common use if you want me to start spitting them out.
Says you.
Where does it state in the law you can hang weapons across your streets? Right to bear arms doesn't mean you can hang weapons across your property without identifying them. You're property, you're responsibility, this is why they invented LIABILITY insurance. This is no different then the law that says I need to have a fence around my pool, even though it's on my property. The law is written TO SAVE LIVES first and FOREMOST.
So it's the property owners responsibility to "play god" by hanging a chain or pole across his road with or without knowing that the ATV rider may or may not know he or she is trespassing, just because you think it was "likely" they knew???
Sorry guys, but anyone who doesn't hangs a sign on these objects on these roads after reading about 3 deaths to AMERICAN CITIZENS should have nothing to do with this hobby and deserves any lawsuit the judge throws at them. Just because you don't know the person killed, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Sure hope the friends and family of these kids don't find their way to this forum.
Historically most people learn from mistakes, but obviously some people don't.
This is not necessarily correct.
And if you go do some research you'll probably find there are many more cases that were thrown out of court.
What ever happened to the responsibility to NOT TRESPASS?
It's very likely they KNEW they were not supposed to be there and had passed several signs informing them that it was private property
Sorry guys, but anyone who doesn't hangs a sign on these objects on these roads after reading about 3 deaths to AMERICAN CITIZENS should have nothing to do with this hobby and deserves any lawsuit the judge throws at them. Just because you don't know the person killed, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Sure hope the friends and family of these kids don't find their way to this forum.
Historically most people learn from mistakes, but obviously some people don't.
03-10-2006, 08:03 AM
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
ORIGINAL: STLPilot
He didn't say personal responsibility, he said personal liability for one thing.
He didn't say personal responsibility, he said personal liability for one thing.
This is not necessarily correct.
And if you go do some research you'll probably find there are many more cases that were thrown out of court.
What ever happened to the responsibility to NOT TRESPASS?
It's very likely they KNEW they were not supposed to be there and had passed several signs informing them that it was private property
Sorry guys, but anyone who doesn't hangs a sign on these objects on these roads after reading about 3 deaths to AMERICAN CITIZENS should have nothing to do with this hobby and deserves any lawsuit the judge throws at them. Just because you don't know the person killed, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Sure hope the friends and family of these kids don't find their way to this forum.
Historically most people learn from mistakes, but obviously some people don't.
Historically most people learn from mistakes, but obviously some people don't.
03-10-2006, 08:59 AM
#29
Senior Member
RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
I posted my opinion at post #4 that indicates that for sure do the
marking/ identification thing but don't expect that alone to change
anything.
Post #6 by EASYTIGER hits the nail on the head. Reduce the liability
to the landowner /club .
Roby
marking/ identification thing but don't expect that alone to change
anything.
Post #6 by EASYTIGER hits the nail on the head. Reduce the liability
to the landowner /club .
Roby
03-10-2006, 09:03 AM
#30
RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
STL pilot, you are RIGHT ON THE MONEY. Liability, schmiability. If you don't mark your fence or gate after reading that article, what kind of jerk are you?
Piper Chuck, sorry, but you are WRONG.
I'll give you a perfect example...Floyd Bennet Field. It's PUBLIC land. You can ride your motorcycle all you want there, it's not trespassing. And people ride their motorcycles at 100mph there all the time. And sometimes onto the model airplane section of the runway.
AND THERE IS NO GATE FOR THIS VERY REASON. We would LOVE to put up a gate so that bikes and cars don't speed out onto the runway while we are landing our models, but we can't...because someone might get killed.
So, who said anything about trespassing?
You have NO IDEA if this event happened on public or private property, or if the biker(s) had any more or less right to be there than the modellers.
So "pipe" down.
Piper Chuck, sorry, but you are WRONG.
I'll give you a perfect example...Floyd Bennet Field. It's PUBLIC land. You can ride your motorcycle all you want there, it's not trespassing. And people ride their motorcycles at 100mph there all the time. And sometimes onto the model airplane section of the runway.
AND THERE IS NO GATE FOR THIS VERY REASON. We would LOVE to put up a gate so that bikes and cars don't speed out onto the runway while we are landing our models, but we can't...because someone might get killed.
So, who said anything about trespassing?
You have NO IDEA if this event happened on public or private property, or if the biker(s) had any more or less right to be there than the modellers.
So "pipe" down.
03-10-2006, 09:46 AM
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
1. Sorry for those who got Killed
2. Maybe they should be nominated for Darwin Awards
3. If your not familiar with where your riding, its your own fault
4. If you are riding in areas others use for other things and don't check it out first, its your own fault ...especially if you are behaving recklessly by "And people ride their motorcycles at 100mph there all the time"
5. If your trespassing....enough said.
2. Maybe they should be nominated for Darwin Awards
3. If your not familiar with where your riding, its your own fault
4. If you are riding in areas others use for other things and don't check it out first, its your own fault ...especially if you are behaving recklessly by "And people ride their motorcycles at 100mph there all the time"
5. If your trespassing....enough said.
03-10-2006, 09:46 AM
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
ORIGINAL: piper_chuck
Please support this statement.
ORIGINAL: J_R
There was no trespass involved.
There was no trespass involved.
At the time, you could have asked me to prove that the words that I posted and attributed to Dave Brown were true. Now, over a month later, it is obvious, since they have, in fact been published as his column.
03-10-2006, 10:10 AM
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
ORIGINAL: EASYTIGER
You have NO IDEA if this event happened on public or private property, or if the biker(s) had any more or less right to be there than the modellers.
You have NO IDEA if this event happened on public or private property, or if the biker(s) had any more or less right to be there than the modellers.
Not since rw Guinn posted back in October of 2005, in this forum, has anyone added anything that might remotely be construed as facts about this incident from actual first hand knowledge.
More than anything else expressed in this thread, I find it unfortunate that Dave Brown has written about liability so often, that when he writes about the conservation of life, it is assumed to be about liability instead. If those "in the know" in this forum misread his intent, as indicated in the first posts in this thread, what are the chances the average AMA member read his column as he intended?
03-10-2006, 10:24 AM
#34
RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
ORIGINAL: J_R
Herein lies the truth of the situation. If anyone has facts to add, that is one thing. What is the point of trying to analyze something without knowing the facts?
Not since rw Guinn posted back in October of 2005, in this forum, has anyone added anything that might remotely be construed as facts about this incident from actual first hand knowledge.
More than anything else expressed in this thread, I find it unfortunate that Dave Brown has written about liability so often, that when he writes about the conservation of life, it is assumed to be about liability instead. If those "in the know" in this forum misread his intent, as indicated in the first posts in this thread, what are the chances the average AMA member read his column as he intended?
ORIGINAL: EASYTIGER
You have NO IDEA if this event happened on public or private property, or if the biker(s) had any more or less right to be there than the modellers.
You have NO IDEA if this event happened on public or private property, or if the biker(s) had any more or less right to be there than the modellers.
Not since rw Guinn posted back in October of 2005, in this forum, has anyone added anything that might remotely be construed as facts about this incident from actual first hand knowledge.
More than anything else expressed in this thread, I find it unfortunate that Dave Brown has written about liability so often, that when he writes about the conservation of life, it is assumed to be about liability instead. If those "in the know" in this forum misread his intent, as indicated in the first posts in this thread, what are the chances the average AMA member read his column as he intended?
Maybe though, somebody's son would not be DEAD if the barrier had been marked better? Maybe he and his parents accept responsibilty for what happened and did not think of suing anybody, but maybe with a little extra care, someone would not be DEAD. Forget FAULT.
Could be you are right, that DB's concern is all about that, rather than the liability aspect. Dunno. But the column was very interesting to me, and I hope people took it to heart and marked their fences and gates better, that could be you, or YOUR child, who gets killed, and forget BLAME, just do your best to prevent an accident.
03-10-2006, 10:28 AM
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
Actually you folks in this country provide hours of entertainment for the rest of the world with your crazy "lets sue everyone for everything" attitude. (McDonald's "Hot" coffee?) In reply to your comments on my post, PHAEDRUS-MMVI. Your ignorance and arrogance of how the rest of the world functions is the perfect example of the "Ugly American". I don't claim to have ever lived in any country that was perfect, including this one. The USA does have a lot of good points, but parts the legal system are out of control. By the way, I am a US citizen, and have been for a number of years.
03-10-2006, 10:48 AM
#36
RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
ORIGINAL: A320driver
Actually you folks in this country provide hours of entertainment for the rest of the world with your crazy "lets sue everyone for everything" attitude. (McDonald's "Hot" coffee?) In reply to your comments on my post, PHAEDRUS-MMVI. Your ignorance and arrogance of how the rest of the world functions is the perfect example of the "Ugly American". I don't claim to have ever lived in any country that was perfect, including this one. The USA does have a lot of good points, but parts the legal system are out of control. By the way, I am a US citizen, and have been for a number of years.
Actually you folks in this country provide hours of entertainment for the rest of the world with your crazy "lets sue everyone for everything" attitude. (McDonald's "Hot" coffee?) In reply to your comments on my post, PHAEDRUS-MMVI. Your ignorance and arrogance of how the rest of the world functions is the perfect example of the "Ugly American". I don't claim to have ever lived in any country that was perfect, including this one. The USA does have a lot of good points, but parts the legal system are out of control. By the way, I am a US citizen, and have been for a number of years.
Do you know the REAL story of the "McDonalds coffee cup?" Do you REALLY think some woman got eight million dollars for burning her tongue? It's not TRUE. It's MYTH. Don't beleive everything you read. And, no, you really have no idea about the american legal system, or the "tort reform" baloney, so spare us your judgements based upon lawyer jokes, rumors, and political PR put up by big corporations who would like to put a nice low limit on the value of a human life like in so many countries. When YOUR wife gets killed due to negligence and some European court tells you, "sorry, she's only worth $250, 000, too bad, so sad!" and some corporation laughs their way out of the courtroom, your perspective might change.
Sorry, I'm just sick of hearing the same nonsense from totally clueless and naieve people about "sue crazy America".
Do YOU know anybody who got rich from a lawsuit from a broken nose? Know anybody who got sued when an intruder broke a leg entering their house? It's a lot of NONSENSE.
03-10-2006, 11:41 AM
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
Piper Chuck I hope you're saying what your saying because you feel like another debate wtih me.
No, I did not read all the fact of what happened, but I DO KNOW that I've been to RC fields and have seen chains and poles across roads leading to the fields and I did read what Dave Brown had to say. So now if I see one not marked will make sure to tell the landowner/field operator that they better mark it. If they don't they don't, but at least they will know.
Also chains and poles ARE WEAPONS. At rest no pole or chain is a weapon, but in motion they are. Why put up a chain and not a rope??? Because a chain will do more damage.
Just listen up guys and take the advice of Dave, if you see a chain or pole that is not marked, have someone CLEARLY mark it otherwise they COULD be sued and lose their filed due to neglect.
No, I did not read all the fact of what happened, but I DO KNOW that I've been to RC fields and have seen chains and poles across roads leading to the fields and I did read what Dave Brown had to say. So now if I see one not marked will make sure to tell the landowner/field operator that they better mark it. If they don't they don't, but at least they will know.
Also chains and poles ARE WEAPONS. At rest no pole or chain is a weapon, but in motion they are. Why put up a chain and not a rope??? Because a chain will do more damage.
Just listen up guys and take the advice of Dave, if you see a chain or pole that is not marked, have someone CLEARLY mark it otherwise they COULD be sued and lose their filed due to neglect.
03-10-2006, 11:46 AM
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
ORIGINAL: STLPilot
Why put up a chain and not a rope??? Because a chain will do more damage.
Why put up a chain and not a rope??? Because a chain will do more damage.
03-10-2006, 11:56 AM
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
No, because the intent is to keep people out. Chains are stronger and typically harder to cut. Anyone with a pocket knife can cut through a rope.
03-10-2006, 12:08 PM
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
ORIGINAL: EASYTIGER
STL pilot, you are RIGHT ON THE MONEY. Liability, schmiability. If you don't mark your fence or gate after reading that article, what kind of jerk are you?
Piper Chuck, sorry, but you are WRONG.
STL pilot, you are RIGHT ON THE MONEY. Liability, schmiability. If you don't mark your fence or gate after reading that article, what kind of jerk are you?
Piper Chuck, sorry, but you are WRONG.
I'll give you a perfect example...Floyd Bennet Field. It's PUBLIC land. You can ride your motorcycle all you want there, it's not trespassing. And people ride their motorcycles at 100mph there all the time. And sometimes onto the model airplane section of the runway.
AND THERE IS NO GATE FOR THIS VERY REASON. We would LOVE to put up a gate so that bikes and cars don't speed out onto the runway while we are landing our models, but we can't...because someone might get killed.
So, who said anything about trespassing?
You have NO IDEA if this event happened on public or private property, or if the biker(s) had any more or less right to be there than the modellers.
So, who said anything about trespassing?
You have NO IDEA if this event happened on public or private property, or if the biker(s) had any more or less right to be there than the modellers.
So "pipe" down.
03-10-2006, 12:17 PM
#41
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
ORIGINAL: STLPilot
Piper Chuck I hope you're saying what your saying because you feel like another debate wtih me.
Piper Chuck I hope you're saying what your saying because you feel like another debate wtih me.
No, I did not read all the fact of what happened, but I DO KNOW that I've been to RC fields and have seen chains and poles across roads leading to the fields and I did read what Dave Brown had to say. So now if I see one not marked will make sure to tell the landowner/field operator that they better mark it. If they don't they don't, but at least they will know.
Also chains and poles ARE WEAPONS. At rest no pole or chain is a weapon, but in motion they are. Why put up a chain and not a rope??? Because a chain will do more damage.
Just listen up guys and take the advice of Dave, if you see a chain or pole that is not marked, have someone CLEARLY mark it otherwise they COULD be sued and lose their filed due to neglect.
03-10-2006, 12:54 PM
#42
RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
ORIGINAL: STLPilot
Exactly, and since you want to keep people out, and since it's your pole on your land, you get full responsibility for that pole/chain if someone gets hurt whether they were tresspassing or not.
No, because the intent is to keep people out. Chains are stronger and typically harder to cut. Anyone with a pocket knife can cut through a rope.
Ah you New York liberal socialists! Hillary, Shumer, STL, et.al. flocking together and to whomever they can. [sm=spinnyeyes.gif] Ain't they great?
Trespass: "a wrongful entry on real property" "to make an unwarranted or uninvited incursion" Thanks to the Ranching and Big-Oil industries, Texas has some strong Trespass laws. Michigan does NOT.
For about 6 years I did own 80 acres of hunting land in the UP MI. The da_n Canadians invaded it during fall hunting season, along with all sorts of ATV and Snow-mobile people both local and otherwise. They cut the fences, tore down the Posted, No Trespass signs and left garbage throughout. NOTHING could be done. After all those people bought more booze in the local towns in a day than the taxes I paid, even though as a non-resident I paid 3 times the native tax rate. So I sold it, for only 2.5 times what I paid for it.
Now here in the Republic, things are different. Trespass is a very dangerous thing. If one does not own, have a lease or rental agreement, or written permission to go on a property, then one is trespassing, unless of course the property is public land open to the public. Even on public land here, one has to have special permits for many activities, each land being a special issue on its own. Don't go there unless you know.
SO STL, my properties are not marked with no-trespassing signs. If someone enters that property, they know they are trespassing. They take the risk.
My home property has locks on the doors. If someone decides to break in, while I am home, that specific individual WILL NEVER SUE anyone. [>:]
I do have a couple small signs: "Is there life after death? Trespass here and find out."
In this thread I fully agree with A320 Driver, and P-51B. If you don't own or lease/rent the property -- Stay the _ell out -- unless it's a public thing like a store, etc.
BTW, my RC club has a steel pipe gate with a chain lock. The posts are painted purple. How many Texans even know what that means? I do. The Constable does. That's enough.
BTW, people get killed frequently doing dumb things in the wrong places. Why is Dave Brown so suddenly all interested in saving all the world from doing such? Oh NO! It just can't be that he is looking forward to resurrecting the Captive Insurance companies that are snug away still simmering, and be the survivor when AMA -- as we now know AMA -- goes belly-up to evolve into a private magazine publishing company and Insurance PROVIDER for model aviators? Just couldn't be, --- could it?
03-10-2006, 01:22 PM
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
So based on your amazingly flawed logic anything that someone gets into on my private property is a weapon? So I have an apple tree that the local kids like to climb and steal apples from. I did that as a kid. One of my friends fell from the tree and broke his arm. Based on what your saying, the landowner should have posted a sign saying that falling from a tree may be harmful or fatal if allowed to occur. The when my friend did fall, he should be allowed to sue the orchard owner for whatever the courts would give him and then since he "grew" a freakin weapon, he should be jailed and his land taken from him. Does that about cover it?
Sigh...
ET is right on the money as far as A320driver is concerned. Dude gimme a break. Although I am not an attorney (and I don't play one on TV) there was a LOT more to that case than many folks know.
Stay off of private property and save your own life.
Sigh...
ET is right on the money as far as A320driver is concerned. Dude gimme a break. Although I am not an attorney (and I don't play one on TV) there was a LOT more to that case than many folks know.
Stay off of private property and save your own life.
03-10-2006, 01:28 PM
#44
RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
ORIGINAL: Hossfly
Ah you New York liberal socialists! Hillary, Shumer, STL, et.al. flocking together and to whomever they can. [sm=spinnyeyes.gif] Ain't they great?
Trespass: "a wrongful entry on real property" "to make an unwarranted or uninvited incursion" Thanks to the Ranching and Big-Oil industries, Texas has some strong Trespass laws. Michigan does NOT.
For about 6 years I did own 80 acres of hunting land in the UP MI. The da_n Canadians invaded it during fall hunting season, along with all sorts of ATV and Snow-mobile people both local and otherwise. They cut the fences, tore down the Posted, No Trespass signs and left garbage throughout. NOTHING could be done. After all those people bought more booze in the local towns in a day than the taxes I paid, even though as a non-resident I paid 3 times the native tax rate. So I sold it, for only 2.5 times what I paid for it.
Now here in the Republic, things are different. Trespass is a very dangerous thing. If one does not own, have a lease or rental agreement, or written permission to go on a property, then one is trespassing, unless of course the property is public land open to the public. Even on public land here, one has to have special permits for many activities, each land being a special issue on its own. Don't go there unless you know.
SO STL, my properties are not marked with no-trespassing signs. If someone enters that property, they know they are trespassing. They take the risk.
My home property has locks on the doors. If someone decides to break in, while I am home, that specific individual WILL NEVER SUE anyone. [>:]
I do have a couple small signs: "Is there life after death? Trespass here and find out."
In this thread I fully agree with A320 Driver, and P-51B. If you don't own or lease/rent the property -- Stay the _ell out -- unless it's a public thing like a store, etc.
BTW, my RC club has a steel pipe gate with a chain lock. The posts are painted purple. How many Texans even know what that means? I do. The Constable does. That's enough.
BTW, people get killed frequently doing dumb things in the wrong places. Why is Dave Brown so suddenly all interested in saving all the world from doing such? Oh NO! It just can't be that he is looking forward to resurrecting the Captive Insurance companies that are snug away still simmering, and be the survivor when AMA -- as we now know AMA -- goes belly-up to evolve into a private magazine publishing company and Insurance PROVIDER for model aviators? Just couldn't be, --- could it?
ORIGINAL: STLPilot
Exactly, and since you want to keep people out, and since it's your pole on your land, you get full responsibility for that pole/chain if someone gets hurt whether they were tresspassing or not.
No, because the intent is to keep people out. Chains are stronger and typically harder to cut. Anyone with a pocket knife can cut through a rope.
Ah you New York liberal socialists! Hillary, Shumer, STL, et.al. flocking together and to whomever they can. [sm=spinnyeyes.gif] Ain't they great?
Trespass: "a wrongful entry on real property" "to make an unwarranted or uninvited incursion" Thanks to the Ranching and Big-Oil industries, Texas has some strong Trespass laws. Michigan does NOT.
For about 6 years I did own 80 acres of hunting land in the UP MI. The da_n Canadians invaded it during fall hunting season, along with all sorts of ATV and Snow-mobile people both local and otherwise. They cut the fences, tore down the Posted, No Trespass signs and left garbage throughout. NOTHING could be done. After all those people bought more booze in the local towns in a day than the taxes I paid, even though as a non-resident I paid 3 times the native tax rate. So I sold it, for only 2.5 times what I paid for it.
Now here in the Republic, things are different. Trespass is a very dangerous thing. If one does not own, have a lease or rental agreement, or written permission to go on a property, then one is trespassing, unless of course the property is public land open to the public. Even on public land here, one has to have special permits for many activities, each land being a special issue on its own. Don't go there unless you know.
SO STL, my properties are not marked with no-trespassing signs. If someone enters that property, they know they are trespassing. They take the risk.
My home property has locks on the doors. If someone decides to break in, while I am home, that specific individual WILL NEVER SUE anyone. [>:]
I do have a couple small signs: "Is there life after death? Trespass here and find out."
In this thread I fully agree with A320 Driver, and P-51B. If you don't own or lease/rent the property -- Stay the _ell out -- unless it's a public thing like a store, etc.
BTW, my RC club has a steel pipe gate with a chain lock. The posts are painted purple. How many Texans even know what that means? I do. The Constable does. That's enough.
BTW, people get killed frequently doing dumb things in the wrong places. Why is Dave Brown so suddenly all interested in saving all the world from doing such? Oh NO! It just can't be that he is looking forward to resurrecting the Captive Insurance companies that are snug away still simmering, and be the survivor when AMA -- as we now know AMA -- goes belly-up to evolve into a private magazine publishing company and Insurance PROVIDER for model aviators? Just couldn't be, --- could it?
Problem SOLVED! Thanks, Horrace!
03-10-2006, 01:36 PM
#45
RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
People keep forgetting, too...
In the case that RWgwinn gave details about, where the kid on the streetbike got killed...
Nobody sued anybody.
But maybe if the barrier had been better marked, the kid would still be alive. Maybe not.
If it were YOUR kid, wouldn't you wish the barrier had been better marked? Wouldn't you hope that the barrier got marked better in the future so nobody else's kid got killed?
People make mistakes, it's not a lot of effort to get some orange paint, or some rags, or whatever, to maybe help avoid someone making a mistake.
Would you call that "personal responsibility?"
If, tomorrow, your neighbor's kid decapitated himself on his ATC when he hit a wire stretched across your field, AFTER READING DB'S ARTICLE, could you just sit back smugly and say "well, personal responsibility!"...or would you think that maybe with a little effort and a little less arrogance and theoretically principled political attitude, maybe the kid would be alive?
Look...there is no downside to this. Just mark your gates and such, screw any vague "principles" you have about "personal responsibility". You might save somebody's life, and that's all that really matters.
And kudos to DB for bringing it up, I never gave it a lot of thought.
In the case that RWgwinn gave details about, where the kid on the streetbike got killed...
Nobody sued anybody.
But maybe if the barrier had been better marked, the kid would still be alive. Maybe not.
If it were YOUR kid, wouldn't you wish the barrier had been better marked? Wouldn't you hope that the barrier got marked better in the future so nobody else's kid got killed?
People make mistakes, it's not a lot of effort to get some orange paint, or some rags, or whatever, to maybe help avoid someone making a mistake.
Would you call that "personal responsibility?"
If, tomorrow, your neighbor's kid decapitated himself on his ATC when he hit a wire stretched across your field, AFTER READING DB'S ARTICLE, could you just sit back smugly and say "well, personal responsibility!"...or would you think that maybe with a little effort and a little less arrogance and theoretically principled political attitude, maybe the kid would be alive?
Look...there is no downside to this. Just mark your gates and such, screw any vague "principles" you have about "personal responsibility". You might save somebody's life, and that's all that really matters.
And kudos to DB for bringing it up, I never gave it a lot of thought.
03-10-2006, 02:31 PM
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
Hi Easy, I have a rebuttal to this whole incident. and it appears no one in this forum has any facts, only exploited hear say. check my reply as a attachment
03-10-2006, 02:37 PM
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
Great! So we can all just move to Texas, where nobody sues anybody, and anybody who wanders onto your property, intentionally or otherwise, well, you can just shoot them, and that will be that! Sounds good!
Problem SOLVED! Thanks, Horrace
Problem SOLVED! Thanks, Horrace
03-10-2006, 02:41 PM
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
ORIGINAL: TJMeek
Hi Easy, I have a rebuttal to this whole incident. and it appears no one in this forum has any facts, only exploited hear say. check my reply as a attachment
Hi Easy, I have a rebuttal to this whole incident. and it appears no one in this forum has any facts, only exploited hear say. check my reply as a attachment
EDIT: For those who are not inclined to open the attachment from TJMeek, here's what it says:
Message: Let me set you people straight. I'm a member of the Roswell Aircraft Flyers club. Dave Browns article in the March 2006 magazine is totally of out of context and not true as far as Roswell is concerned. The site is a section of runway over a mile long, the entrance is from college Blvd. We use the last 1/3 of that runway as per permission from the parks commission. Due to vandelism, grafitti, etc., we asked for and got permission to erect a barrier with a gate to help stop the problems and was granted this. The barrier is pipe rail approx 4 feet high and the full width of the runway. Now the unreported facts. It's 2/3 of a mile from the main road to the barracade. There are signs posted on both sides of the runway from the beginning to the barracade and the barracade has multi-colored reflective tape, signs, and large road type reflective bairriers in front of the railings. Unfortunetly the media blew this whole accident out of porportion. The boy was not on the club area, and knew the barriers were there. He was not paying attention, and was racing at speeds above 100 MPH. Had all these facts been presented to Dave, I think he woiuld have published the article different. We were way above the AMA standards. So please don't voice your oppinions on hear say. I know because I was there. And my last tidbit, the accident happened in bright afternoon sunlight at approximately 3:45 PM. And the Barracade and signs are visable from the entrance for 2/3 of a mile to the barracade. Hope this might clear up some misconceptions
03-10-2006, 02:43 PM
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
So based on your amazingly flawed logic anything that someone gets into on my private property is a weapon? So I have an apple tree that the local kids like to climb and steal apples from. I did that as a kid. One of my friends fell from the tree and broke his arm. Based on what your saying, the landowner should have posted a sign saying that falling from a tree may be harmful or fatal if allowed to occur
My logic is that if you have an apple tree and you decide to put spikes and razor blades on the tree without a "beware of lethal razor blades and spikes" and some kid climbs it and slices their bodies to shreds, YES you can be sued for putting that child in harms way. Just like putting an unmarked chain across the middle of the road.
It's just amazing that some of you guys are actually coming down on Dave Brown for wanting to save lives, just amazing.
03-10-2006, 03:27 PM
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...
ORIGINAL: STLPilot
It's just amazing that some of you guys are actually coming down on Dave Brown for wanting to save lives, just amazing.
It's just amazing that some of you guys are actually coming down on Dave Brown for wanting to save lives, just amazing.
Four high school kids in this area died in a recent car crash. They were in one car (Mazda RX-8) that was estimated to be going over 100 mph. Are you going to blame the city for not painting the guard rails day glow orange? Or perhaps it was the fault of the car company for not having a warning on the instrument cluster that even though the speedometer could go over 100, it was a bad idea to test it? How about blaming it on the state for not requiring high speed driving training for all teenagers? The bottom line in this crash is that 4 teenagers are dead and if the one with his foot on the gas had been more responsible, it wouldn't have happened.
The motorcycle death is very similar. There's only one person responsible for the decision to try a high speed run on that runway.