EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

Well...one thing people seem to ignore is that at least half of the insurance claims that go to AMA's actual insurance company(as opposed to under $250k claims, that AMA self insures) have nothing to do with modelleing, but are slip and fall accidents, things relating to site ownership.
Some kid falls off a log at an AMA field and gets a piece of rebar though his eye, AMA's insurance pays out over a million dollars.
THAT is the more common case, someone getting hit by a model is much more rare.

So...how does THAT affect everybody's calculations?
So much for zero risk indoor flyers, that's a myth...
I would not let somebody onto my land, or into my facility, with only $250k liability. Not going to happen. If someone actually got hurt, $250k would cover the legal fees, even...

ira d

Just a thought people go to the golf range and the shooting range also the bowling
alley and no one is asked for 2 mil coverage at these places.

abel_pranger

ET-

What does somebody else's liability insurance coverage have to do with a slip and fall accident on your property (as you said, related to site ownership)? I figure zip-zero-squat, but maybe you can enlighten.

Abel

Dr1Driver

Just a thought people go to the golf range and the shooting range also the bowling
alley and no one is asked for 2 mil coverage at these places.

No, but I bet the shooting range and golf course both carry MUCH more than 2 mil in liability.

Dr.1

piper_chuck

My Feedback: (12)

And the customers pay for it without even realizing they've done so.

Hossfly

Ira d: Yes you are correct. However when you go to those places, the owners cover their own butts and don't give a D_MN about YOU. You go there to amuse yourself. If someone there hurts you the owner has his backside protected and you are left to your own method.
Now at the shooting range there is a certain amount of discipline required so no one shoots toward another. If one is careless, then one will be thrown out of the place. Actually there are no missiles going astray and winding up in your space! [X(]

Would it not be nice if the RC model was always as controlled as those using the shooting range? OTOH each time you do a careless act, would you want to be thrown off the flying field and told to stay gone? []

The SR and BA management have no concern if you get financially overpowered. OTOH AMA provides the insurance plan so a club can more easily obtain a flying facility. The Ins. also protects your well being when some yahoo with no other protection harms you or yours.

Ira d, your thesis is well flawed.

Hossfly

For one thing, I would like to see some actual records that substantiate what I believe is a myth concerning this much quoted slip and fall thing.

In 2004 AMA had 7 bodily injury liability claims filed. In 2005, 4 such claims.

OTOH in 2004, 47 property damage liability claims were filed, whereas 2005 saw 49 property damage claims filed.

(NOTE "Filed"


If someone has an accident on property that you own or control, you could well be in for a liability suit. If you were hosting some event on Farmer Joe's property both will be named as a defendant. Do they have enough to cover the claim? Do you? It is good to have deep pockets in such case.
You're at an event. An errant outdoor or indoor glider is coming at you. Someone yells. You turn just in time to get a serious poke in an eye. Who gets sued. Before it's over -- everyone. If the landowner has nothing but a small plot of dirt, you will be glad that there is someone, AMA, that can help the other guy anti up to you. Everyone's liability coverage is your target at that time.

ira d

I dont see a thing wrong with my thesis. also just because you are an AMA member
is no guarantee that you will be covered if somthing happens.

abel_pranger

Hoss-

Can't do anything re substantiating myth (or not) about the fiscal impact of slip and fall accidents relative to those actually related to flying model airplanes. AMA simply won't release such figures.

The issue brought up by ET in starting this thread was concerned specifically with liability arising from hazards associated with the site, and as such the responsibility of the site owner, however many such accidents actually occur. His example of a kid getting an eye poked out by an exposed piece of rebar is germane to that issue. Your example of somebody getting poked in the eye by a model airplane is not. I doubt that the site owner could be held liable in your case, but then AMA has made no information available concerning site owners being sued as a result of actual model airplane accidents, either. Further, though off topic here, I doubt that I would collect from the owner/flyer of the model in your example, much less the site owner, because of the "assumption of risk" defense that would undoubtedly be invoked by the insurer (AMA) in representing their client(s), the insureds, which could include the site owner, the modeler directly involved and the club. If you want to talk about myths, tell me AMA would be involved to look out for my interest as the injured party. That is not how liability insurance works.......but then we've been down that road before.


Abel

SoCal GliderGuider

You forgot to add that the kid's father, an AMA member, had to sue the AMA to get that settlement.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

I agree with easy, it needs to be set at least 1M.

abel_pranger

Seems in the right ballpark for the site owner's liability insurance. Don't see a need for individual coverage to be that high, or even essential to provide at all. It is coverage for the site owner that is needed to obtain flying sites. That is the reason AMA's insurance program got started. People that felt the need for individual insurance coverage decided for themselves what to buy, how much to buy, and where to buy it. With exceptions like state mandated minimal coverage for drivers, that's how it still works for the small part of the world that functions outside the sanction of AMA.

Abel

s3nfo

My Feedback: (14)

Hoss,

I don't see what the 49 broken windshields and paint dings (which AMA paid themselves because they NEVER reach the threashold where the insurance company sees them) have to do with the original premise about most claims paid by the insurance company being slip and fall?????

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

Def the right ballpark, everyone wants to hear the word "million" doesn't matter how much over the first 1M, usually.

So lets get it to 1M and get this thing started!

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

I'm not sure I trust Horrace's data here at all. He may be misinterpreting some info.
The claims you are talking about, are you meaning claims that actually went to the insurance company? Or are you including the self-insured ones that were below $250k? Because I find it VERY had to beleive there were only 4 medical claims in one year, with all the props biting fingers and all...
Can you define your terms, here?

Hossfly

Slip and Fall may be true in the medical claim department, but it is a myth concerning the number of LIABILITY claims. There is one historical case that is used to propogate the myth, mainly because of the $$ amount of such settlement. IIRC the big one was a settlement that later was revised in an incident of a CL speed model leaving the lines and hitting a helper. That one received considerable attention.

So you guys take note of my information which used the term, LIABILITY CLAIMS. Like in old military exams: RTFQ or in this case read the ----ing statement! Like EACH word.


From AMA web site:

>>>>>>>>
2005 Financial Insurance Summary

Liability Premium 63.9% $968,913.03

Fire, Theft & Vandalism Premium 0.5% 8,061.25

Accident/Medical Premium 7.0% 106,000.00

Paid Claims/Legal Expenses 28.6% 433,340.23

GRAND TOTAL $1,516,314.51

• Protecting AMA members or clubs and site owners who are subject of lawsuits brought forth against them by injured parties. Many times amounts are far in excess of any available homeowner’s insurance. Without adequate insurance, those members and clubs (including club officers in some instances) may be personally liable to injured persons and that may expose personal assets to court judgments that could affect the financial future of members or clubs.

• Approximately 70-80% of the amounts paid for these claims are paid to AMA members or their respective families for their injuries. Without AMA insurance the compensation to injured members may be inadequate or perhaps nonexistent.

<<<<<<
ET, if the data is wrong then so is the AMA as I only copy what they place for members to read.

Edit to cover a big BOO BOO for clicking the send OK prior to finishing the post.[:'(]