Go Back  RCU Forums > RC Airplanes > AMA Discussions
Reload this Page >

Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

Notices
AMA Discussions Discuss AMA policies, decisions & any other AMA related topics here.

Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

Old 12-21-2002, 04:15 PM
  #1  
J_R
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Corona, CA,
Posts: 4,444
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

If an AMA member takes compensation for training another AMA member to fly, should their AMA insurance be in effect? The AMA does not currently cover such training.

If a member wants his instructor to be at the field at certain times, or is willing to pay for his undivided attention, is there any reason that coverage should not be extended?

Traditionally, training has been free. The only price was the student having to stand and wait a lot. Particularly, with the advent of good ARF's, we are seeing less patience.

Where are the pitfalls of such coverage? What other potentials are there for abuse?

JR
Old 12-21-2002, 05:10 PM
  #2  
Hossfly
 
Hossfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: New Caney, TX
Posts: 6,130
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

>>>>>>>>>>>
Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training (post # 1)

If an AMA member takes compensation for training another AMA member to fly, should their AMA insurance be in effect? The AMA does not currently cover such training.
>>>>>>>>>>
If a member wants his instructor to be at the field at certain times, or is willing to pay for his undivided attention, is there any reason that coverage should not be extended?
>>>>>>>
Traditionally, training has been free. The only price was the student having to stand and wait a lot. Particularly, with the advent of good ARF's, we are seeing less patience.
>>>>>>
Where are the pitfalls of such coverage? What other potentials are there for abuse?
JR
Old 12-22-2002, 12:04 AM
  #3  
P-51B
Senior Member
My Feedback: (5)
 
P-51B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Posts: 6,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

I need to ask a question, so please forgive my ignorance yet again.

JR said, "If an AMA member takes compensation for training another AMA member to fly, should their AMA insurance be in effect? The AMA does not currently cover such training."

My question;

Many clubs have a "training program" where they have several instructors. The instructors spend their time with the students, and log it. The club pays $X.00/hour for their trouble, but the student never pays anything. Does this mean that no one is covered if somthing happens?
Old 12-22-2002, 02:24 AM
  #4  
Bill Vargas
Senior Member
My Feedback: (5)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Apple Valley, CA
Posts: 1,987
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RC Flight Instructing

Jr, I'd have to say that if the RC Flight Instructor is appointed by the club,,, then he or she (Flight Instructor-Trainee) should be covered by the clubs insurance policy(?) or by the AMA's Intro Pilot Program,,, in the event of a mishap or damage caused by an accident.

BAH HUM BUG to those that charge the New Guy for learning how to fly RC airplanes. Training the New Guy is suppose to be done for FREE and in the Spirit of Promoting RC

OOPS, forgot to answer your question,,,

Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training?

Answer- NO



BV
Old 12-22-2002, 03:01 AM
  #5  
Hossfly
 
Hossfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: New Caney, TX
Posts: 6,130
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default Instructing for Pay / AMA Insur.

Originally posted by P-51B
I need to ask a question, so please forgive my ignorance yet again.

JR said, "If an AMA member takes compensation for training another AMA member to fly, should their AMA insurance be in effect? The AMA does not currently cover such training."

My question;

Many clubs have a "training program" where they have several instructors. The instructors spend their time with the students, and log it. The club pays $X.00/hour for their trouble, but the student never pays anything. Does this mean that no one is covered if somthing happens?
C. Maroney, AMA Insur guru, replied with yes/No answers to my questions:

>>>>>
From: CainHD ([email protected])
Subject: Re: Commercial Flight training!

I sent this message:
>>>>
Mr. Maroney:

Simple questions for simple Yes/No answers.

1. An AMA Member, flying on a Charter Club's named facility, a club to which the subject AMA Member belongs, is instructing RC to another AMA member, for which the subject AMA Member is receiving monetary payment. Is subject AMA
Member covered by AMA Insurance?

Yes / No --- NO from CM

2. In the above case, is any applicable Site Owner Insurance obtained by said Charter Club in force?

Yes / No. --- YES from CM

3. Does AMA Insurance cover any commercial RC Flight Instruction
operation on a private flying site either:

(a) private to the Instructor? Yes / No --- NO from CM
(b) private to the student? Yes / No --- NO from CM


Thank you for your time and learned reply.

Horrace Cain
AMA 539 CD / Leader
Old 12-22-2002, 03:19 AM
  #6  
Jim Branaum
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Posts: 2,633
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default Re: RC Flight Instructing

Originally posted by Bill Vargas
Jr, I'd have to say that if the RC Flight Instructor is appointed by the club,,, then he or she (Flight Instructor-Trainee) should be covered by the clubs insurance policy(?) or by the AMA's Intro Pilot Program,,, in the event of a mishap or damage caused by an accident.

BAH HUM BUG to those that charge the New Guy for learning how to fly RC airplanes. Training the New Guy is suppose to be done for FREE and in the Spirit of Promoting RC

OOPS, forgot to answer your question,,,

Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training?

Answer- NO



BV
Bill,
I am not sure how the club's appointment might change anything. Most clubs (well, at least my club) pays the extra cost of the "Intro Pilot" ticket ($5 each) and absorbs that cost as part of our giving back to the community. Our intro guys generally get 4 or 5 new guys a year EACH, so we think that is a good investment. As long as instruction is not charged for, other than the membership requirement after 30 days or with out using the Intro pilot guys, all parties are covered by AMA insurance under the current rules.

On a side note, I do not believe that instructors should be appointed by the club unless there is a testing program in effect. Simple appointments become political hot potatoes and some of the appointees couldn't train their way out of a wet paper bag with a pair of scissors. But they get appointed because they are friends with XYZ and WQRT so they must be good instructors. Sorry, instruction is a technique some folks are unable to learn.

I know a LHS owner who does charge for lessons, but he flys at a private field. I have seen his 'results' and teach them the finer points of flying safely. His 'instructions' are not welcome at most of the club fields in the area because of the financial issues. If an individual charges for his time and effort, he is taking club resources and benefiting from them. Most club members look at paid instruction in that manner.

Now to directly answer JR's question. Those with ARF's and no patience will not get more patience if we allow their instructors to fly at our fields and charge them. Most renters of cars buy insurance, do students who are paying the instructor do the same? If that were true, wouldn't the student join the club where instruction is free?

Sorry, I do not think the AMA should support commercial training operations simply because they do not build the hobby. The instant gratification will soon wear off those checkbook modelers and they will (and do in droves) go away. The real problem with providing coverage for commercial training operations is that the implication is that the student does not buy a policy (AMA membership). That means that the AMA has more risk and less resources to absorb that excess risk.

Providing insurance for commercial training operations will only increase the available numbers of "try it for a while" folks who pass through. Raw numbers of turnover help the hobby INDUSTRY by providing a large changing market, but that is only a temporary blip in the income stream rather than a trend shown by a modeler who is in this hobby for fun.




My opinion
Old 12-22-2002, 03:39 AM
  #7  
Bill Vargas
Senior Member
My Feedback: (5)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Apple Valley, CA
Posts: 1,987
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default Re: Re: RC Flight Instructing

Originally posted by Jim Branaum


Bill,
I am not sure how the club's appointment might change anything. Most clubs (well, at least my club) pays the extra cost of the "Intro Pilot" ticket ($5 each) and absorbs that cost as part of our giving back to the community. Our intro guys generally get 4 or 5 new guys a year EACH, so we think that is a good investment. As long as instruction is not charged for, other than the membership requirement after 30 days or with out using the Intro pilot guys, all parties are covered by AMA insurance under the current rules.
Jim,,, Yes that is what I mean for those flight instructors that wish "NOT" to be paid for training the new Guy,,, your explanation (opinion) is the long version

BV
Old 12-22-2002, 04:16 AM
  #8  
Bill Vargas
Senior Member
My Feedback: (5)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Apple Valley, CA
Posts: 1,987
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default Re: Instructing for Pay / AMA Insur.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hossfly
[B]

C. Maroney, AMA Insur guru, replied with yes/No answers to my questions:

>>>>>
From: CainHD ([email protected])
Subject: Re: Commercial Flight training!

I sent this message:
>>>>
Mr. Maroney:

Simple questions for simple Yes/No answers.

1. An AMA Member, flying on a Charter Club's named facility, a club to which the subject AMA Member belongs, is instructing RC to another AMA member, for which the subject AMA Member is receiving monetary payment. Is subject AMA
Member covered by AMA Insurance?

Yes / No --- NO from CM

2. In the above case, is any applicable Site Owner Insurance obtained by said Charter Club in force?

Yes / No. --- YES from CM

3. Does AMA Insurance cover any commercial RC Flight Instruction
operation on a private flying site either:

(a) private to the Instructor? Yes / No --- NO from CM
(b) private to the student? Yes / No --- NO from CM


Thank you for your time and learned reply.

Horrace Cain
AMA 539 CD / Leader
Old 12-22-2002, 04:26 AM
  #9  
J_R
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Corona, CA,
Posts: 4,444
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

There are quite a few quirks in this question. I had seen the letter Horrace got from Carl before. That is pretty cut and dry. P-51B tossed in a twist that I have no idea about. I wrote to Carl and asked for either an answer or for him to post one.

Jim Branaum, the way I posed the question in the poll was for the training between two AMA members. That implies that the student has obtained an AMA membership and has insurance in place, as does the instructor. It seems to me, that if both have paid for an AMA membership that the AMA has gained a member. I don't understand why the fact that compensation is part of the deal that it would negate the insurance. It has been assumed that money was passing hands. Compensation could just as well be a plane sold at the LHS with the training being part of the purchase, or the training taking place with the building of a model for a student. All are compensation. I have a hard time seeing where another fee for insurance that is already been paid should be imposed, as Horrace suggested. Jim, again, you threw in a twist I had not thought about. I am not aware of any club with commercial instruction where free instruction is not also available.

The attitude that training should be free is heavily supported and probably the reason that the EC has taken no action on this issue. It is interesting to see the thread develop and the different twists on the subject. The feelings of the particular club also have to come into play. A club has the right to set it's own rules. Some clubs are involved in the Intro Program and others are not. Some have club trainers, other have no requirement to be an instructor.

JR
Old 12-22-2002, 04:50 AM
  #10  
William Robison
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Mary Esther, Florida, FL
Posts: 20,205
Likes: 0
Received 14 Likes on 13 Posts
Default Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

J_R:

My two cents: If a person is gainfully employed as a flight instructor insurance is part of HIS cost of business. And should not be part of my cost of flying.

But there is a grey area here, because of the words "Gainfully employed." How do we define this? If the instructor has to drive x miles out of his way to do the instruction, has to supply this or that for the session, or any other out-of-pocket expenses, I see no reason for him not to be paid back by the student, and I do not consider this to be gainful employment. Even a small honorarium for his time, while I don't think it should be done, can't be considered gainful employment.

However. If someone advertises as a flight instructor, whether in print ads, on local radio/TV, or even by word of mouth, he is then at least attempting to do it for profit and he should indeed be responsible for his own liability coverage.

Summarization:

As a once in a while thing, paid for expenses only, and possibly a tip for service, OK, leave insurance with the AMA, and don't tell the AMA about any compensation to the instructor.

If you have a member who is making a habit of being "Tipped" for tutorial assistance, kick him out of your club if he doesn't stop after being warned, and tell the AMA.

And yes, we do have a lot of "Professional" modelers, with their sponsors, but they are to be envied, not castigated. And don't forget most of our suppliers are modelers also, if we kick them out and they leave the field, we are all in trouble.

So let's apply some common sense, and only kick the sleeping dog when we need them moved.

Can twin flying be pure, if the teacher uses AMA to insure?

Bill.
Old 12-22-2002, 05:21 AM
  #11  
J_R
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Corona, CA,
Posts: 4,444
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

Originally posted by William Robison
J_R:

My two cents: If a person is gainfully employed as a flight instructor insurance is part of HIS cost of business. And should not be part of my cost of flying.

<SNIP>

Bill,

If the same two people are involved, without compensation, AMA coverage is in force. What I do not understand is why the compensation makes any difference, relative ONLY to the insurance. The risk to the AMA would seem to be identical. The premiums have been paid. Where is the additional insurance risk? Where is the additional insurance cost? If the overall number of students remains the same in either case, what is the justification for negating the insurance?

Just for the record, I have taught a lot of folks to fly, but have never taken a penny.

JR
Old 12-22-2002, 05:47 AM
  #12  
William Robison
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Mary Esther, Florida, FL
Posts: 20,205
Likes: 0
Received 14 Likes on 13 Posts
Default Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

JR:

Like the kid said when asked how he liked school, "It's the principal of the thing!"

In this case, of course it's the principLE. The AMA is supposed to be a banding together of amateurs, for mutual benefit. It is not intended to be a liability carrier for a commercial operation.

When someone is trying to make some extra bucks in any field he has become a commercial operation.

Advertising yourself as a tutor implies the intent to profit, and it therefore has become a commercial operation.

But as I said, if it's a sometimes thing, don't kick the sleeping dog.

Want to swing? A twin's the thing.

Bill.
Old 12-22-2002, 07:07 AM
  #13  
Jim Branaum
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Posts: 2,633
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

Originally posted by J_R


Bill,

If the same two people are involved, without compensation, AMA coverage is in force. What I do not understand is why the compensation makes any difference, relative ONLY to the insurance. The risk to the AMA would seem to be identical. The premiums have been paid. Where is the additional insurance risk? Where is the additional insurance cost? If the overall number of students remains the same in either case, what is the justification for negating the insurance?

Just for the record, I have taught a lot of folks to fly, but have never taken a penny.

JR
JR,
You are right, I did put a twist on it and I did leave your twist alone. That was done with intent and prior knowledge of Cain's post. I also have seen it and read it closely.

The real issue is commercial operations. That is what you described, that is what Carl Maroney described, and that is what I have been talking about. Check with your local city government and find out the hoops you have to jump through to have an office (registered with phone and yellow pages entry) in your home. Commercial operators have to have a different level of insurance since their tort liability is higher than yours or mine, as has already been defined by the courts. That means the things you and I settle after 15 minutes of discussion wind up in court and cost many times what you and I might have agreed to.

Insuring commercial operations costs many times what personal insurance costs due to the uncertainties of user, potential victim, and repetitive nature of the risky action. For a fast and valid sample of the difference in the approach, compare the insurance costs for a pick up truck to those of a 18 wheeler dump. The big truck even gets driven by an educated driver!! In modeling, we don't know who the 'employees' will be or how well trained they might be, or how dedicated to safety they might be. For the causal user (you and me) we can make those assumptions.


I am not sure, but I suspect that is why Carl Maroney answered Cain with all those negatives. I am not sure he is wrong.
Old 12-22-2002, 08:14 AM
  #14  
J_R
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Corona, CA,
Posts: 4,444
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

Jim

You raise an interesting point. Just how much liability does ANY instructor take on? I have no statistics, but, from observation, it appears that more crashes take place per instruction flight than in any other circumstance.

With reference to your assertion that the claims might be for larger amounts if a commercial venture were involved, I would suggest that the club would certainly be involved if there were litigation. If the job of training a student is so dangerous, can mandatory certification of instructors be far off? Just wait until one of the "Professional" modeler's is involved in litigation. Jim, there is your closest comparison. If the AMA can cover a modeler who is compensated by a manufacturer, why not a compensated instructor?

As Horrace implied, this could lead to a lot of new rules before the captive insurance company is put into place. As you know, the EC is already looking at a reduction of coverage. It is going to be interesting to see what the effects on such things as the liability of inspection of 'experimental' planes weighing 55 to 100 pounds are, the liability of the CD for his role in safety inspections and enforcement of safety rules, the liability of turbine safety waivers, and the liability of just being a club officer, as more litigation takes place.

All this leads to.... nothing. The fact is that it comes down to a matter of principle, as Bill stated. There are a lot of members that think there should be no payment for instruction. Realistically, when was the last time you heard of a Hobby Shop owner being sued as a business entity for including flying lessons with the purchase of a plane when there was an accident? IMHO, the coverage could be extended without any noticeable effect on insurance claims or costs. It is only the prejudice of history that is holding back the coverage. Let's prohibit ARF's and reinstate the 'builder of model' rule. Those ideas have a basis in prejudice too.

JR
Old 12-22-2002, 01:37 PM
  #15  
Geistware
Senior Member
My Feedback: (16)
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Locust Grove, GA
Posts: 12,942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

AMA should limit insurance to clubs and AMA members. Commercial ventures need to cover their business with similar coverage. To me, the AMA should not get involved with the commercial business with respect to insurance.

I think the more delicate question is should the AMA cover the student during commercial lessons? My initial thought is that it should be secondary or tertiary coverage, but not primary.
Old 12-22-2002, 01:58 PM
  #16  
Bill Lee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chandler, TX
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

Originally posted by J_R
Jim
....... As you know, the EC is already looking at a reduction of coverage.
JR
Hello, JR;

Taking one sentence out of a big context:

What is your source of information that leads you to this assertion? Mine tell me that it is just not so. Can you expand on this some?

Thanks.

Bill Lee
Old 12-22-2002, 04:05 PM
  #17  
J_R
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Corona, CA,
Posts: 4,444
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

Originally posted by Bill Lee


Hello, JR;

Taking one sentence out of a big context:

What is your source of information that leads you to this assertion? Mine tell me that it is just not so. Can you expand on this some?

Thanks.

Bill Lee
Bill

I have had some correspondence with EC members, however, without getting into that the following is from the EC Minutes Oct 26, 2002.

Under Committee Reports, Budget

Sub Heading: "Discussion among Council included:"

Second Paragraph: "Within the budget, the insurance alone is nearly 20% of it. Need to be prepared that we will not be able to purchase insurance. RFP’s are being prepared to solicit other carriers. Also looking at the possibility of reducing levels of insurance."

JR
Old 12-22-2002, 04:33 PM
  #18  
Hossfly
 
Hossfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: New Caney, TX
Posts: 6,130
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

>>>>>>
Cain said:"I have soloed newbies for 30 years. I have paid my debt.
Just how many hours per year do YOU, Bill V., spend on the primary end of a buddy box each year?"

Vargas said: "So lets not beat each other up over how much experience you have or I have,,, because it causes the Topic to go off Line."
Old 12-22-2002, 05:01 PM
  #19  
Bill Lee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chandler, TX
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

Originally posted by J_R


Bill

I have had some correspondence with EC members, however, without getting into that the following is from the EC Minutes Oct 26, 2002.

Under Committee Reports, Budget

Sub Heading: "Discussion among Council included:"

Second Paragraph: "Within the budget, the insurance alone is nearly 20% of it. Need to be prepared that we will not be able to purchase insurance. RFP’s are being prepared to solicit other carriers. Also looking at the possibility of reducing levels of insurance."

JR
O.k., thanks. (I'll probably have some more feed-back later.)

Bill
Old 12-22-2002, 05:02 PM
  #20  
J_R
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Corona, CA,
Posts: 4,444
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default The training process

Does this sound familiar? If not, I have a hard time making the case for compensated training. If you have, maybe it's the best reason for compensated training.

The newbie brings his completed pride and joy to the field. He's really proud of the craftsmanship that he has displayed during the building process. Invariably, the THING is virtually unflyable. The control linkages are wrong and binding. The engine is not installed correctly and even if it is, it needs to be broken in. The rudder is crooked, the control surfaces are hanging by a thread and the gaps are way too big, or way too tight, epoxy is everywhere. The landing gear has tow-out and is pointed in a tight circle. Of course the ailerons are reversed.

The club member closest to the newbie takes one look and runs. He looks for the two guys that might help a newbie. They draw
straws and the loser is pushed toward the newbie. He loser can see three hours just to make the plane flyable. Another hour to get the engine to run.The newbie does not have any of the parts or tools to make the repairs, so... the new found best-friend instructor is up and down the pits rounding up the needed items.. and the newbie waits. The new found best friend-instructor then has to chase down a buddy box for the brand of radio the newbie has, then find a trainer cord that will work (there is a rule somewhere that the newbie will never have the same brand radio as his new best friend-instructor owns).

By now the batteries are down. The new best-friend instructor tries to find someone with a field charger with the same leads that the THING has, and the newbie wiats... and waits. Finally, the plane is ready. The new best-friend instructor takes it off. After determining that it has a warp in the wing and putting in huge amounts of trim, he continues with the trim flight. He debates himself as to whether the plane is flyable for a newbie. Finally the instructor lands.

The new best-friend instructor now decides it is time to fly his own plane. The newbie sits and watches, and... waits, and.. waits... and.. waits.

Now it's time to adjust the linkages and the newbie waits. Finally, another flight is attempted. The newbie is on the sticks about 50% of the 10 minute flight.

Now the sun is setting. The newbie is told to come back next week. His new best-friend instructor is making plans to be somewhere else, anywhere else.

You now have two very frustrated people. The newbie thinks no one wants to help, he only got 5 minutes of stick time all day. The new best-friend instructor is talking to himself about taking up golf.

Thus begins the oddessy of learning to fly.

JR
Old 12-22-2002, 06:06 PM
  #21  
GrnBrt
Senior Member
My Feedback: (5)
 
GrnBrt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 6,988
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

This thread is to discuss whether or not AMA should cover commercial enterprises. It is not here for people to compare flight logs, compare how many newbies they have trained, nor how many years they have been doing it. Now please stay on the path.
Old 12-23-2002, 01:27 AM
  #22  
Jim Branaum
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Posts: 2,633
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default Re: The training process

Originally posted by J_R
Does this sound familiar? If not, I have a hard time making the case for compensated training. If you have, maybe it's the best reason for compensated training.

The newbie brings his completed pride and joy to the field. He's really proud of the craftsmanship that he has displayed during the building process. Invariably, the THING is virtually unflyable. The control linkages are wrong and binding. The engine is not installed correctly and even if it is, it needs to be broken in. The rudder is crooked, the control surfaces are hanging by a thread and the gaps are way too big, or way too tight, epoxy is everywhere. The landing gear has tow-out and is pointed in a tight circle. Of course the ailerons are reversed.

The club member closest to the newbie takes one look and runs. He looks for the two guys that might help a newbie. They draw
straws and the loser is pushed toward the newbie. He loser can see three hours just to make the plane flyable. Another hour to get the engine to run.The newbie does not have any of the parts or tools to make the repairs, so... the new found best-friend instructor is up and down the pits rounding up the needed items.. and the newbie waits. The new found best friend-instructor then has to chase down a buddy box for the brand of radio the newbie has, then find a trainer cord that will work (there is a rule somewhere that the newbie will never have the same brand radio as his new best friend-instructor owns).

By now the batteries are down. The new best-friend instructor tries to find someone with a field charger with the same leads that the THING has, and the newbie wiats... and waits. Finally, the plane is ready. The new best-friend instructor takes it off. After determining that it has a warp in the wing and putting in huge amounts of trim, he continues with the trim flight. He debates himself as to whether the plane is flyable for a newbie. Finally the instructor lands.

The new best-friend instructor now decides it is time to fly his own plane. The newbie sits and watches, and... waits, and.. waits... and.. waits.

Now it's time to adjust the linkages and the newbie waits. Finally, another flight is attempted. The newbie is on the sticks about 50% of the 10 minute flight.

Now the sun is setting. The newbie is told to come back next week. His new best-friend instructor is making plans to be somewhere else, anywhere else.

You now have two very frustrated people. The newbie thinks no one wants to help, he only got 5 minutes of stick time all day. The new best-friend instructor is talking to himself about taking up golf.

Thus begins the oddessy of learning to fly.

JR
LOL!
Have YOU been at my field watching? That is one of the extra added benefits I get as I am one of only 4 people in my club flying Airtronics radios. Most LHS owners sell Futaba or JR!

Now the question is fairly simple, exactly what would having a paid (commercial) instructor change in your odyssey? I suspect the correct answer is NOTHING if you think about it.

Horrace does not like my position and that is fine because I am committed to the HOBBY rather than the pass through flyer's who pay for the Muncie improvements. Those guys get as much of my time and efforts as they are willing to EARN.

Earning my attention and my efforts in their behalf involves little things, like making the corrections I have pointed out without abusing my F*R*E*E* time. If the beginner comes up with a buddy box and cord, I already have a known measure of the commitment and am much more willing to go out of MY way spending MY free time helping. Yes, I will LEND some things (tools and a very little equipment I have BOUGHT for my personal use), but not very much as the last muffler I lent out had disappeared as has the last crankshaft weight and several ounces of Prather lead segments and countless glow plugs.

No, I think having the AMA support commercial operations will simply transfer the cash flow from the AMA and chartered clubs provided by the checkbook modeler to the business operations we all will take on as needy step brothers. Your observations about the club being involved in litigation are accurate, but the rate of legal involvement goes up when a business operation is the source of an incident rather than a hobbyist.

Sorry, maybe it is selfish but I think we have it right now and do not need to change that rule.
Old 12-23-2002, 02:33 AM
  #23  
J_R
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Corona, CA,
Posts: 4,444
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Re: Re: The training process

Originally posted by Jim Branaum


<snip>

Earning my attention and my efforts in their behalf involves little things, like making the corrections I have pointed out without abusing my F*R*E*E* time. If the beginner comes up with a buddy box and cord, I already have a known measure of the commitment and am much more willing to go out of MY way spending MY free time helping. Yes, I will LEND some things (tools and a very little equipment I have BOUGHT for my personal use), but not very much as the last muffler I lent out had disappeared as has the last crankshaft weight and several ounces of Prather lead segments and countless glow plugs.

No, I think having the AMA support commercial operations will simply transfer the cash flow from the AMA and chartered clubs provided by the checkbook modeler to the business operations we all will take on as needy step brothers. Your observations about the club being involved in litigation are accurate, but the rate of legal involvement goes up when a business operation is the source of an incident rather than a hobbyist.

Sorry, maybe it is selfish but I think we have it right now and do not need to change that rule.
Jim,

The things that I could see changing might be along the lines of having the student bring his plane to the instructor's home before going to the field. Most modifications could be made there, without the expectation on the part of the student, that he is going to fly. It normally takes less time for such modifications when the proper tools are at hand. The issue of a buddy box could be addressed at the same time. A compensated instructor would probably have boxes for all the major brands in relatively short order. In other words, the running in of an engine would be left to do at the field, assuming that it could not be done at the home. That would leave more time for instruction at the field, enhancing the enjoyment of the student AND reducing the time necessary for the instructor to actually train the student. Maybe the biggest single change would be that the instructor would not be out looking at golf clubs at the end of the day.

My suggestion would be to make the coverage available. Why shouldn't the AMA try it for a year or two and get some actuarial data before dismissing it out of hand, on the basis of prejudice? Debating the legal issues without data is less than productive. As Bill Robison pointed out, our prejudice FOR "Professional" pilots allows them to be covered. Should this issue be decided by the AMA on a prejudicial level? The AMA should at least be consistent.

I don't think that the AMA should dictate to any club that they make their field available for compensated training. Each club could then make the decision as to whether they would allow a compensated endeavor to use the club facilities. Some clubs have very aggressive and proactive training programs, including the Pilot Intro Program and club airplanes. At others, virtually no one wants to train a newbie. Most probably fall somewhere between.

Don't forget that two good things could come from this. More AMA members and more club members. I know, I know, some clubs will not want new members. No club would be forced to participate.

JR
Old 12-23-2002, 03:53 PM
  #24  
Bill Lee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chandler, TX
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

Originally posted by J_R


Bill

I have had some correspondence with EC members, however, without getting into that the following is from the EC Minutes Oct 26, 2002.

Under Committee Reports, Budget

Sub Heading: "Discussion among Council included:"

Second Paragraph: "Within the budget, the insurance alone is nearly 20% of it. Need to be prepared that we will not be able to purchase insurance. RFP’s are being prepared to solicit other carriers. Also looking at the possibility of reducing levels of insurance."

JR
O.k., here's more information.

I asked JR originally for his source and he pointed me at the EC minutes. Since I was at that meeting and did NOT recall any "discussion", I asked Dave Brown for some clarification. Here is his response:

"I remember mentioning the possibility of a reduction to $1m, and discussing it in a very periphery way. It is a very real alternative, if we have to do a self funded program. In that case, I really cannot see any way to fund a $2.5m program. I believe it is in this context that the minutes read."

I asked Sandy about the same thing, and he remembered as I did: "What discussion?".

Based on Dave Brown's comment: yes, the issue was "discussed", sufficiently to make the minutes, but there was little actual discussion. more of a statement by Dave.

OTOH, insurance IS a big concern right now, and a reduction to something that we can afford IS a real possibility. (IMHO)

Bill
Old 12-23-2002, 04:57 PM
  #25  
J_R
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Corona, CA,
Posts: 4,444
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Should AMA Insurance Cover Commercial Training

Originally posted by Bill Lee


O.k., here's more information.

I asked JR originally for his source and he pointed me at the EC minutes. Since I was at that meeting and did NOT recall any "discussion", I asked Dave Brown for some clarification. Here is his response:

"I remember mentioning the possibility of a reduction to $1m, and discussing it in a very periphery way. It is a very real alternative, if we have to do a self funded program. In that case, I really cannot see any way to fund a $2.5m program. I believe it is in this context that the minutes read."

I asked Sandy about the same thing, and he remembered as I did: "What discussion?".

Based on Dave Brown's comment: yes, the issue was "discussed", sufficiently to make the minutes, but there was little actual discussion. more of a statement by Dave.

OTOH, insurance IS a big concern right now, and a reduction to something that we can afford IS a real possibility. (IMHO)

Bill
Bill

Apparently, some on the EC paid closer attention Dave's comment than others. Now that you know what I found out. What other consequences do you or others foresee IF a lowering of insurance levels is necessary? How can claims be cut? I know this is still in the thinking stages, but input here might be helpful if something positive is developed.

Bill, what level will the captive be funded at initially, if necessary? What amount would be necessary to maintain the current level of coverage?

What do you believe the effects of having a competitor out there with higher limits on insurance will be? What is your guess as to the effect on future number of members the AMA will have?

JR

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.