macr0t0r

My Feedback: (2)

LOL! Okay, I need to make that sticker for my Depron 3D Foamie. That's too perfect.
My T6-Texan was destroyed by a faulty elevator servo, so I'm down to just my Foamie Thumble and my Model Products Hornet (mix of foam and balsa). However, I managed to acquire a complete Apple Model Products Fokker DR1 kit! Looks like all the wood is still in good condition, too. 3 wings....that jig will come in handy.

[sm=confused.gif] Took offense? Nah. I re-read our posts, and the most that I can find is me trying to clarify points that I was previously ambiguous on and you misinterpreted. I'm not harboring any ill-will, and if you look back, there were a few points that I agreed with you on.
Despite that, I'm afraid I'm not interested in your offered panes. I've had enough Ugly Sticks, and Delta Wings don't do it for me. I think I'll concentrate on the DR1 instead.

Stickbuilder

Nay, not so. That is at best a cop out, and at the core, just an excuse. We raised 5 children (all stable, productive members of soceity...all with advanced degrees, and none with outstanding college loans) and now enjoy all 8 Grandchildren. I always found a way to get in a few minutes building time every, Repeat, every day. Some days, more, some days less. None of my children enjoy the hobby, but they all do appreciate the hobby. Two of the Grandchildren are showing an interest in building. As long as that happens to a few in each generation, the hobby will survive. What, no kits? What is wrong with building from plans, or better yet, draw your own plans, and build from scratch, or just make a building tree, and don't use any plans. My models? Always Scale, not an Ugly Stick in the bunch. How do they fly? Extremely well. What do they use for power? All Glow, or gasoline. Do I fly in a Public park? Absolutely not, because there is the opportunity for someone who does not recognize the danger of walking into the path of a powered model airplane to do so. I do, and have always flown at a chartered club facility. They are, by design a much safer place to enjoy this hobby, or when in the military, flew at an approved site on base. Never many spectators around? Oh well, I do this for me to enjoy, and I could care less if you watch me fly or not. I personally feel that most who come to watch model airplanes being flown, come with the expectation of seeing someone crash. Not at all unlike those who attend automobile races in order to see the carnage.

Do I really care if you build your own model, or if you fly a BARF, or a model that you bought from your best friend? Absolutely not. As I have previously stated, I do this for my own enjoyment, and I could really care less what you fly, or even if you fly at all. I see a lot of people showing off the latest BARF, and crowing about it. I equate this to borrowing you big brother's Corvette, and showing off for your friends with it. It's not yours, so what are you bragging about? It's kind of like boating. That group can give you guys lessons on propriety. Several years ago, I bought a boat from a fairly famous boat racer. Even though the boat has been through several engine configurations, and a new gel-coat job, and a complete new interior, it is still known as Paul _ _ _ _ _,s old boat. We don't get bent out of shape over it, that's just the way it is. Personalizing a BARF is, to me like, putting a pair of red silk panties on a Holstein heifer and passing her off as a GO-Go girl. It just does not wash. Several years ago, I sold a large scale model to a gentleman. He did not have the experience to fly it, and so it was sold to someone else. The next year I saw the model at a fly-in. I walked over to the group that was oohing, and ahhing over it, only to hear the Bozo who had bought it bragging about how he built it from scratch. You should have seen the look on his face, when I pointed out the signature on a bulkhead (plainly visible) should I say how quickly he left the area, and the next week, the model was hanging in the LHS for sale? I bought it back, and it still hangs in my home.

Please don't use the excuse of not having time to build. Every opportunity has a cost. If you had rather fly than build, then enjoy it. Don't try rationalizing it. Telling people that you fly BARFs because you don't have the time to build is lame. Tell them the truth.

Bill, AMA 4720

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

The ugly stik is just a look. Easily changed. There have been dozens of the DNU!'s built all over the world. It's not just an ugly stik, but a minimally designed airframe for the best power to weight ratio using a Cox Blackwidow. Oh well, that was your chance to get more info out there on electrics. Of course, that's not a problem at the moment.

What I meant was this is me being nice. My personality nor my writing style are what you would call "bubbly". One of the downfalls of forums is you don't know what my tone is. So you read it with your tone coloring what I said. In this forum, where nastiness can be normal, you may have thought that was what I was doing. Well, I may have been, but only when I get really frustrated.
Right now I frustrated because the AMA is marketing heavily to people who are already members. (from what I can tell) That means they're wasting money.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

How can they not afford to market to their own audience??? Companies, even NFP's, DEPEND on residual income. The AMA's numbers are going down, not up, that means they MUST invest more money to keep those that are leaving. These people leaving are their most important sources of revenues and if they can't even keep them, how do they expect to get new? They can't. Most of the AMA comes from word of mouth, I don't see ads on NBC or in the NY Times too often. That means they have to depend on their own members to spread the word, but if their are no members, how does the word get spread??

quint-rcu

My Feedback: (24)

macr0t0r, I agree this thread has just about run it's course and it was refreshing to see some lively posting without flaming. If we 'old guys' and those young whipper-snappers can agree on the pleasure of flying then everything else will take care of itself (heck; we'll die off and they will get to be old guys too...) I'm glad I live in the wide open south where I can still fly most anywhere as long as I dodge the alligators. Cheers to all...

By the way if you are interested in the little Staggerwing go to this thread: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_39...tm.htm#4019964

macr0t0r

My Feedback: (2)

Heh, this is another one of those moments where I agree with you. I wonder how many park flyer pilots KNOW of AMA, know what it does, and still doesn't join ONLY because it costs a little too much. In my experience, they either didn't know AMA well enough to understand the benefits of joining, or they HAD researched it and decided it wasn't for them no matter the price. This e-ticket will mainly just give many of the current park flyer members a discount (if they never use sanctioned fields). This is certainly not the "boost" AMA is looking for.

What AMA should be talking about is how to get their name into the parks. Right now, the only way a Park Flyer discovers AMA is by having a member approach him. Do you think a special discount will inspire more members to appraoch Park Flyers, especially when the membership won't be valid at their flying site? Probably NOT.

STLPilot, you mentioned how the e-ticket was modeled after the Sport Flyer license. However, the Sport Flyer license works because people still have to go through the "gate" of schools to be allowed to fly. The students still come to them. The introduction of park flyer airplanes has removed the "gate" of having to go through a chartered flying site.

If the purpose is to "get them hooked" with a lower price, then the junior membership and Introductory membership already does that. Price is not the issue...insufficient publicity is.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

I guess you didn't read Joyce's email in it's entirety. You missed a few things. That is specifically aimed at addressing the needs of the park flyer pilots. We have defined these "park flyer modelers" as having models that weigh 2 pounds or less, do not exceed 60 mph, and do not fly higher than 200 feet. This proposed program would have less insurance coverage, be limited to non-sanctioned events, and include a bimonthly magazine focusing on electric-powered aircraft. Additionally, we view this new membership group as establishing electric-power flying fields in urban areas and not being part of existing clubs. We have priced this program at $29.95 per year.

Sorry but I like to keep facts as the facts, didn't mean anything by it. Price was not the main focus of the e-ticket, in fact it was the last point mentioned in the proposal.

Sorry but you don't need to go through a single school get your Sport ticket or even Private ticket. In fact most people don't go anywhere near a school to get a sport or private tickets, that's just if you want to accelerate the process or just need that extra re-assurance. They simply rent a plane and hire a CFI, read some books, take a written then practical test, done deal. Typically after sport or private one will seek out a school for further ratings after that level. The AMA could only wish they could propose such a successfully running program to get new, not as rich and health restricted pilots either up, or back up, in the air.

What the AMA needs to do is setup their policy to be molded for the park flyers, let even take the price out of the equation for right now, although no matter what you think, lower price always sells more, Walmart is living proof, you know the worlds largest company. The best way for the AMA to attract AMA parkflyers is to actually make a proposal like they've already pitched, smaller planes and slower speeds. Something designed just for them and this is what the AMA IS working on right now.

It's not working, obviously, otherwise they would have never made the pitch and the numbers are STILL falling. Reason why intro membership won't work is because it's a "one hit wonder" and those never work. The kids membership is the bait onto a larger AMA which also must not be working either otherwise the average AMA members age would be much lower. What will work? Who knows, but what is the fear of trying. It seems everyone is for the intro program, for the kids program, GREAT! Now lets try something else which actually MAY show actual results designed off the FASTEST growing niche in RC RIGHT NOW. Each day they wait, they are only missing the boat as it sails by.

Why does the AMA need PF's like the thread says? Because they are not stupid. It's the members and the EC that slow the AMA down. This is why the AMA should switch over to a for profit or IPO before it goes to crap. The EC are lost in their own little clueless world and they are taking their own ship down, like a bunch of holes in a boat.

macr0t0r

My Feedback: (2)

@STLPilot: My point is that the junior and Introductory memberships aren't working because price is not the issue.

I do agree that AMA needs to start gathering ideas on how best to gain permission to fly at Public Parks so that they can give future Park Flyer clubs a place to start. The insurance needs to be re-thought as well so that a club can protect the land-owner without making it seem like they are "claiming" the park for themselves. However, neither of these points are addressed much in the current e-ticket. A membership price-drop is a panic-button bandaid move that doesn't really solve the real issues. I know AMA can do better than this.

Yah, park-flying is a fast growing niche, and it does seem like AMA is reacting a bit slow. But, I'd rather they take the time to feel out a few more solutions instead of implementing the first idea that comes to mind and then doing damage-control in the aftermath of their mistake.

Those Park Flyers aren't going to dissappear in a year, and I doubt a competing organization will be built in that time either. AMA has a little time to think it over and do it right. Trying to be rash about this will punch just as many holes in the ship.

@quint-rcu: Oh WOW, that thing is tiny! I can't believe how good of a job you did on the ailerons. Unfortunately, there is a steady and stubborn breeze here in the Bay Area. I need something around 24" wingspan or so. Still...that's a beautiful bird for indoor flying!

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

The test that the Sport Pilot and the CFI have to take are FAA tests. Written and practical, it's FAA mandated. With a parkflier you can buy and fly without ever having heard of the AMA. Sorry STL, (not really) but your analogy isn't relevant. The FAA "gate" he's talking about is real. You can't get a SP certificate without ever having heard of the FAA.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

You're right it's not working because neither of the 2 niches are the fastest growing in the industry, but parkflyers are. I'm not as concerned with the price of the e-ticket as much as I am with the proposal itself. The proposal is near perfect IMO, they just need to raise the liability to 1M. Other then that, like I said, perfect.

I do believe price should be less because the proposal is much less as highlighted above. Other successful organizations have multi tier price points because your trying to sell to niche markets and it works and works well. Why do you think a certain niche hangs out at RCU, a certain niche at Run Ryder, another niche at Flying Cirkus, because people want to feel like there is special there for them and that includes a custom price point.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

How did we even get to this. You think I don't know this? But the point is that the AMA did in fact mold the e-ticket off the SUCCESS of the EAA/FAA's Sport Ticket which is very successful. Sorry but you guys just don't understand niche markets and how and when to strike.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

"although no matter what you think, lower price always sells more, Walmart is living proof, you know the worlds largest company. "

Exxon-Mobil begs to differ![>:]

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

Sorry, largest in sales, i.e. overall volume.

Don't forget, people shop at Walmart for one reason, to save money. You know penny saved is a penny earned they say. People can buy anything at Walmart somewhere else at a higher pricepoint. They choose Walmart because Walmart knows how to reach out to an audience that wants to offer something at a lesser quality, but also at a lesser price. This is also why Walmart stocks their shelves with the same products under different brands and different price points i.e. tiers. The only company Walmart has to compete with is Walmart much like the AMA who has no competition, but struggling in memberships.

Unlike the AMA they don't have to worry about whether or not someone is or is not going to shop with them or not at all, they've dominated the market and know how to retain their residual income, with better/tiered prices and TONS of fluff. You know those little fluffy things like putting a McDonalds at the front door to feed your kids to keep them quiet while your shopping. It's very true that Walmart pisses people off, but for every person they piss off, 10 more join their "club". Nobody is forced to shop at Walmart, they just found the real secret to getting their shoppers, better prices. It's something the AMA is obviously catching on too.

Oh and people buy gas for one reason, they have too, that's Exxon/Mobils market strategy. It's one that seems to be working well within their niche too.

It's almost ignorant to say that people don't want to save money. The AMA doesn't hold enough "fluff factor" although they have good value. But there really is no "sugar on top" and a lower price is always the sugar customers will always bite on every time.

MustangFan

It's all about Money !

In fact ... all of life seems to be All About Money.

Hossfly

In one sentence you state, ".... the perception is..." yet in another sentence it's "....AMA seems ... out of touch..."

However I will not argue your remarks about the current AMA President. The facts are that far more than one of the old timers were working to change the AMA President in the last AMA presidential election. Where was YOUR crowd? They da_n well did not show up at the polls. You people loaf on your butts, don't get involved in these dirty old politics, yet just fuss when the hand-outs are not made.
Fortunately not all young people are like that. They pick up their rifles and go off to war so the free loaders can run the show. [:@] Something is very wrong with that picture or at least it is to me.

Stickbuilder

PTUlmer,
I learned a valuable lesson last week. Never argue with an idiot. Bystanders might not be able to tell the difference. The little red button (the one shaped like a hand) click that one. Amazing how peaceful this site becomes. Course, you'll have to take some heat from your other buds for it, but it's worth it.

Bill, AMA 4720

Stickbuilder

Ain't it the truth. Horrace, it's a shame that we can't volunteer some of them to join in. Might be a tad more peaceful back here on good ol' RCU.

Bill, AMA 4720

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

Hey, don't block him out...once in a long while, Horrace DOES say something interesting...

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Easytiger already broke me from taking everything here seriously. I mostly skip what STL writes. Both exemplify the close minded New York lib. Both hold anyone in the southern U.S. in absolute contempt. I enjoy showing them who's right.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

Liberal? Try again.

Stickbuilder

I never block Horrace out. I just noticed the new post that he started. I suppose that it proves again, Politics does make for some strange bedfellows. Dang, Horrace!!! [:@]

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

I was being wise, I knew we were really talking about STL, not Horrace.

The Tom Cruise post really shows exactly how far Horrace has run off the rails. STL's response shows that running off the rails probably has little at all to do with age!

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

Me, I am a HARDCORE builder...everything from indoor to turbine, from scratch, from plans, from kits...a SERIOUS builder, I do Cleveland, you know?
But I like my ARFs, too. And if someone buys a plane rather than builds it, it does not bother me. Enjoy flying it. Sorry you missed out on the enjoyment of BUILDING it, but at least you are out FLYING, and you are still absolutely WELCOME at my field, anytime. ARFs WELCOME. ALL welcome.
And to hear ptlumer snobbing out like he is some sort of "master builder" because he has done a couple of very simple, very basic 1/2a sport designs, like he is suddenly Don Srull or Fulton Hungerford.

flyinrog

My Feedback: (1)

PM me if your a moderator and can tell me why my thread was yanked yesterday?

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

ET, you've misread everything I've wrote.(intentionally) There's two .40 size ARF's hanging in my garage. I like both of them because I'm not attached to them and can fly'em till I crash'em. I'm also not elitist about my simple stuff. I am proud of the fact that I've taken the fat out and matched great airframe specs to the engines I use, but most folks don't care. I'm ok with that. Heck, the more complex stuff I've got may get put into production. Sorry, but not everything gets given away.

That's my last time defending myself against the likes of you. I have every right to be proud of my work and your crude analogies just further prove my belief that when you don't have an argument, you resort to name calling. For shame.

The ability to charge the battery for a RTF doesn't make you a modeller. Some parkfliers are modellers. Get it?