ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Freq. control? That's not enough. What, besides revenue, does the average Parkflier (person) have that the AMA needs so badly they'd cut the legs out from under current members? Seems to me that the PF'ers posting in this forum want everything the AMA already offers, they just want it for 1/2 price. Well, not all. Some want more! Some want additional insurance! What am I missing? If they want to fly in parks, that option is already available. There's nothing to gain from joining the AMA. If you want clubs, competitions, etc. you can pay the $58 like everybody else. I don't see an advantage to having loads of welfare members.

macr0t0r

My Feedback: (2)

Um....this is bordering on troll-bait, ptulmer.

In Congress, the "weight" that a special-interest group carries, like AMA, is based on the membership population. Although there are more planes in the air, there has been steadily FEWER AMA members the last couple years. Some existing AMA members are switching to electric, flying in the park, and leaving AMA behind. AMA is just trying to move with the crowd. Of course, this is why I think it's counter-inutitive to treat Park Flyers with a special deal, when AMA should be just spreading its influence so that Park Flyers are included in the fold.

It's not revenue AMA wants, or they wouldn't offer such a price-cut. It's NUMBERS. AMA needs those numbers to stay relevant. But first, they have to be relevant to the members they want to recruit.

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Not at all. I want a serious answer. I don't accept your premise that the crowd is moving, and I don't think that PF'ers and the AMA need each other. I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise. Just the opposite. I've been pretty well convinced that the AMA shouldn't seek these people out.
If the PF'ers want something from the AMA, they have to join in sufficient numbers to have a voice. That's the way everybody else has done it. Want a louder voice? Start a SIG. It's simple and has been done many times.
Why in the world do we want segregated members?

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

nothing to do with what we or they want, but purely a numbers game.
the more folks we can say we(ama) represent, the louder our(ama) voice is to the government bodys we(ama) have to deal with.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

Totally agree with and Mac and Mongo. Also I don't hear any parkflyers crying for anything. The AMA was the one that put the proposal on the table, so who needs who??

I'd really like to know what the heck you mean by this.

macr0t0r

My Feedback: (2)

@ptulmer:
Will you accept that there are more people flying today than in the past? It's pretty obvious that Park Flyers has caused something of an explosion lately. You would think that AMA would be able to skim a few additional members from this explosion. However, when they presented the e-ticket proposal (which I still think is a bad idea), they displayed a cahrt showing the membership trend. I have a copy of the powerpoint file. It reads:
2002: 173,000
2003: 168,000
2004: 164,000
2005: 161,000

You can "not accept" it all you like, but the bottom line is that AMA is shrinking even though there are more modelers. They are simply trying to fit into the new market. Growing pains are to be expected.

I'm a bit of an annoying optimist. I still believe that AMA will eventually get back on its feet with both gas and electric in its ranks.

scottrc

We, at least many of us card holding members, don't want segregated members. I see the parkflyers to the AMA like illegal immigrants to the US. Both the AMA and US Government want the numbers because they mean higher productitvity, more votes, and more taxepayers / duespayers, however, at what cost must the status quo ceed in order to please the new populace?

Change in policies to cater to park flyers only?
Parkfler only parks and clubs?
Higher dues to make up for the losses if the program fails?
More red tape and paperwork? Poorer administrative performance because it is overtasked?
Harder to give input and feedback?
More politics? Top heavy management?
Less coverage and benefits?
In-fighting between SIGS competing for EC attention?

AMA is trying to throw a political band aid over a major sore that they have, which is their image. They are losing members because of poor performance and at promoting the organization as a whole, and are trying to whoo a new demographic into the organization in order to hopfully overthrow the status quo.

However, many of us are feeling pushed away from the organization whenever they try to promote some scheme like the "e-ticket". What is next? Blimp ticket? Sloap soaring ticket? Stunt Kite Ticket? When does it end?

We need parkflyers like we need all types of flyers. What we don't need are these off the cuff programs from the AMA that segregate members.

Scott

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

I believe the AMA is just laying claim to the PF'ers for future litigation against any organization that may arise. We (the AMA) were here first, and here is the date (fill in blank) that we organized them. Thats one motive.

ANd the other motive is , as was stated above, the numbers game. Congressman Onthetake, I represent 67, 000 modelers and we are concerned about, (fill in the blank) and its negative impact on a (blank) million dollar industry.

But, you know....................the AMA membership number may not be that important. The dollar value of the retail sales might be more important. And the fact that the hobby seems to be the gateway hobby that leads to aviation careers. It did for me. And it did for many of my friends. Wether the AMA speaks for 15,000 or 30,000 members, the AMA really speaks for about a million hobbiest. Some people are grateful for the hobby and the life it led them into. Some people might have less to be grateful for. But everyone can recognize that many a young man was kept out of trouble, kept off the streets, and given a new outlook and goal because of this great hobby. TO recognize the value of this hobby, the training, the education, and mentoring of young people is to recognize the importance of the AMA.

Many young, naive PFer's out on their own ,does not make an AMA, no matter how many.

Stickbuilder

I wonder has anyone done the demographics on the average age of the AMA member? It looks to me like the reason for the drop in the membership rolls might be due to normal attrition. We (old phartes) are dying off at a fairly steady rate. There have been several just this year that have been reported here. Just imagine how many more have passed on, who were relative nobodies, and no one noticed. As the Baby Boomers start to thin out (they are pretty much the last large group of members) there will be an even more profound decrease in membership. I dare say that there will not bee too many members from Generation X or the other gen's. who will join anyway. I would almost bet money that the average age of the AMA open membership is at least 50 years of age. Anybody got any other ideas?

Bill, AMA 4720

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Stickbuilder, I think that is far more likely the reason the numbers are dropping. Way more likely than the idea that tens of thousands of modelers are giving up the clubs for parks.

People that buy the little foamies and go to the park have a toy mentalitiy and are not modelers. You can call them sport pilots or whatever. Until they actually build a model, they aren't a modeler. I know shouldn't generalize like that, because not everybody is like that. BUT, most are. I don't see what the AMA has to offer them. Simply put, they are not part of the hobby because they choose not to be. It has nothing to do with equipment or where you fly. Just how you think. I can't see too many current AMA modelers suddenly dropping their current interest and going to be a parkflier.

Also, the numbers game is not why the PF'ers are being approached. Money is. Do you really think Dave Brown appears before congress on a regular basis? Or ever? He would go to the FAA first. They could just write us out of existance no matter how many members AMA has. It's about getting more revenue. Money is power. Dave wants power.

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Well, you guys have given me some stuff to think about. I still feel like we're bending over to kiss the PF'ers collective butts. Maybe that's why I have a bad taste in my mouth...

Thanks to you guys that took my questions seriously. I hope we've added to the collective understanding! I think I'm gonna get back to the 1/2a forum and work this headache off.

macr0t0r

My Feedback: (2)

Park flyers aren't modelers? AMA wants money? Kissing our collective butts?
[:@]

(macr0t0r runs off to fly his Whisper heli in the garage for a bit to cool off.....)

Oooookay, your park flyers must be different from ours. While you do find the occasional AirHogs Biplane (I have one of the cute little buggers), you'll find that most of the 3Ders are flying kit or scratch-builds. I actually see more scratch-builds in the Park Flyer population than at the main flying site, but that is mainly due to the simplicity of construction. I know there are many people who just want to toss their new "toy" around until they get bored and leave. Let me be clear on this:
We have NO interest in recruiting those people, so quit using them as an example to prove your point!

AMA is trying to recruit the enthusiastic Park Flyers, many of which already have more than one plane, have become proficient at aerobatics, and even participate in the forums and fly in groups. These guys are serious about the hobby, but they prefer the convenience and freedom of flying at the park. I've even seen a couple small-scale events organized at the park. AMA recognizes them as "Aircraft Modelers" and would like to bring them in to replace the members that are fading from the AMA roster.

Money and power? Where did you get such a cynical view of AMA? Dave Brown is not getting rich and famous with this job. He does it for the love of the hobby. Yes, it's about numbers. When the e-ticket proposal was put forth to the EC, they talked about dwindling NUMBERS. Not revenue reductions. The reduced membership fee was to increase NUMBERS. It's pretty clear.

I guess the thing that really bothers me is that we are often considered separate and even "non-modelers" to so many existing members. Do you view the free-flighters as kids with $2.00 rubber-powered models? Are the slope-soarers just a bunch of kids with $10 flying wings? Just because we're not on your field doesn't mean we aren't full-fledge modelers.

Even Dave Brown sees this, so at least acknowledge that there ARE some serious modelers in the park.

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

You can't ignore the very people the AMA wants to recruit. No matter what you want, they are the most numerous parkflier. Anything that's offered to them and accepted will effect the whole of the AMA. Until someone addresses the hazards of a rank newbie taking a RTF to the park with their new AMA license, I'm going to remain deadset against any new programs to attract them.

No, until you build a model, you aren't a modeler. Putting together a GWS stick isn't building a model. My opinion is that ARF's don't count either. That's not saying these groups of people are lesser, so cool it. Just different. Are you really comparing yourself to a freeflighter? They're the true craftsman in this hobby and your ability to assemble a foamy does not put you in the same league as them.

Stickbuilder

Or maybe something like this.

Bill, AMA 4720

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

I agree with you on this one. They are also driving gen x away from the clubs too.

I beg the differ. This is one of hundreds of groups of kids we instruct, in urban regions, and very soon these groups of kids will be in every major city in the USA. Oh and every one of them are scratch building, freeflight modelers, you know those "artists" of the RC hobby.

Have no fear, the modelers will be replaced with a new breed with a new POSITIVE attitude and the AMA will continue to grow with or without your help. Not everyone shares your vision of defeat. Time heals all wounds.

Stickbuilder

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Stickbuilder, at 32 I'm not that old and there's alot of guys my age passing through the club. I figure as they get older and have more time, they'll be back. So far I've only made one kid and at 5 years old, he's the biggest fan I've got. Maybe he'll be an AE, but he'll certainly be a modeler!
The average age at our club probably is 50. But there's no 50 year olds! It's either my age group or retired. I think any panic attacks in Muncie are premature.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

Just give a rats ass enough to respond tho, right. Don't like what I have to say, hit the block button, problem is you can't do it.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

Not sure it's old age, either.

I think it's a pretty natural cyclic thing we have with the economy. Notice how membership was growing until the market tanked 911 happened? Go look at the membership figures from teh seventies and eighties. Exact same thing going on. When you have a really strong economy, people will buy models and they will join AMA.
If you want to look at the trend on a larger scale, well, AMA is doing INCREDIBLY well, considering they went from a mere 25,000 members around 1969 to 180,000 members today!

So much for statistics.

Stickbuilder

You may have the best idea of all there.

Guys, I won't be fighting with Dion any longer. He suggested that I hit the black button, I hit the red one instead. <click> blocked.

Bill, AMA 4720

Hossfly

https://www.modelaircraft.org/member...tion%20rpt.PDF


Average age of AMA members in Spring, 2004: 57.5 Median: 58.9

Hossfly

"So much for statistics"

That's for sure for those that state that AMA has 180,000 members. [X(]

Hey, ET, you certainly did your part in assuring the decline of AMA's membership rolls. No need to hide it, you can take the credit. You do so deserve it! [sm=sunsmiley.gif]

Jim Thomerson

Well, I am an idealistic, Pollyanna sort of person in some ways. I think membership in the AMA, the organization which represents, supports, promotes, regulates, etc. etc. model aviation in the USA, should include everyone involved in model aviation. So I would like to see all parkfliers as full AMA members. Don't know how we get there from here.

Stickbuilder

It 's real easy. Hand them an application. They fill it out, send it in with payment. It's done. Nothing difficult about it.

Bill, AMA 4720

Jim Thomerson

Bill, I like your out-of-the-box thinking.