[email protected]

I have joined a club that no longer allows 3D or freestyle flying for nitro or gas engines due to the "type of noise" created this type of flying. I find this new rule quite silly. If there is a noise restriction then it should apply to all types of flying. I am not sure how to react to this new rule. I guess i need to join a new club. Unfortunately, all the alternatve clubs are too far away. Bummer.

Bob Laine

My Feedback: (91)

Matt.....I'm sorry that you won't be able to fly 3D at your club any longer. Personally, I have no problem with the "NO 3D Flying" rule of the club, if that's what the majority of the members want. If that rule was in effect when youjoined the club, you should have inquired into club rules before joining. On the other hand, if the No 3D rule was enacted after you joined, then I suggest you either learn to live with it, or demand a refund of your membership since you paid your membership when no 3D the rule was not in effect. I personally don't care for 3D myself, but I have no problem with those that do, just so long as it's done in a safe manner. Bob

50%plane

My Feedback: (5)

Put an electric motor on the nose of your 3D plane and then bring this rule back up for consideration.
Unfortunately, this is one of the problems with the AMA not "recognizing" 3D as a viable way to fly a plane. I have run into these types of rules before. I have a few questions though:

#1Are there any other folks who opose this rule?
#2What will it take to get this rule overthrown?
#3How is this rule enforced?
#4How long has this rule been on the books?
#5What do you fly?
#6How loud is what you currently fly?

Find out #6 if you don't know and also find out how loud the other planes are there. Also, you could propose that the sound level be set at a certain level(say 98db at 25' in the propline) and that all previous rules applying to the sound levels be taken out.(assuming this is how your club works)


50%

KidEpoxy

grrrr
So they say hovering at 100' is too loud, but I bet they are just fine with high speed flyby at 30' with some deafening plane, or running laps WOT in pylon practice.

I dont know the situation, but it appears on the surface they are against 3D, not noise.

Ask at what distance/altitude 3D would be quiet enough. If they refuse to grant a distance/soundlevel, you are just up against AntiHoverite discrimination.

Personally, I dont like folks hovering on the runway, but I dont mask it behind unjust noise rules rather than the real safety & usage issues.

Hossfly

Like any organization, a Club has a perfect right to rule as the majority of the voting membership so designates. Any restriction can apply to whatever that majority so wishes. A Club does not have to be a social experiment.

OTOH, if you have reason to think you can provide another side to the question, then do so, in a proper manner, at the Club's meeting and be ready to prove the validity of your points. In addition be prepared to perform chores that may assist the club to provide extra safety precautions for the questionable item.

Your reaction can be either to pack up and run or work with the club and WORK to get a revision of the item that you don't like.
We have several 3D nitro/gas guys that none present more noise than regular flying of those engines. Sometimes at Fly-Ins we have those guys show up that have no real muffler or they are running a prop two sizes too small in pitch. They are politely asked to either become a spectator or re-prop. Some leave and never come back. They are not missed. [sm=49_49.gif]

BTW 3D OVER THE RUNWAY is not allowed at my club when any other pilot station is occupied. That is a safety thing.

[email protected]

This is a new club rule and just imposed last week. If it were due to safety aspect then I would respect it. It is masked behind a statement that it contributes to a "type of noise" not acceptable to the field.

I only fly freestyle when there is no other pilot in the pits. I am a very safe pilot and abide by all safety rules.

I fly an OS0.91 with stock muffler and it is not as loud as some of the 0.46 that buzz around at wide open throttle.

I agree- we should resolve the issue. If it is safety issue then make a safety rule. IF it is noise then ALL planes must abide by the noise rule. Not just freestyle.

Matt

50%plane

My Feedback: (5)

Can you back this statement up with solid facts, or is this just your opinion? Db levels sound different at different pitches.....



Since this rule was imposed last week, I assume that it was voted in by the membership. If this is the case, leave the club to fly 3D, or buy a foamie. Another potential solution is to but a nice Hacker on the nose of your plane and see what happens......

[email protected]

I am currently trying to arrange a time to measure the Db of my engine to compare with others on the field. I do know for a fact that at some times I can not hear my engine when flying side by side with some of the 0.46. In fact, there have been times when I am hovering and can not hear my engine due to other smaller engines.

BTW- this club allows 3D with electrics of any size.

Matt

LANNYBOB

go somewhere else and fly 3-d im sure theres plenty of room in oregon.

abel_pranger

Matt-

This sounds like my club in away. Board of dictators makes some nonsensical rule with no rationale for it given to affected members. At least you got a reason, horse manure such as it is. Db levels measured by AMA guidelines as well as for virtually every noise abatement ordinance in the country use the dBA scale. This is a measure of perceived loudness, corrected for the variance in human perception as a function of pitch. That is what the 'A' means - a correction to the raw sound pressure level measurement for the variation of level sensed by the human hearing apparatus by the A-weighting curve. The A-weighting has been derived empirically and refined over many decades using countless test subjects to model hearing response of normal adults. A sound at 100 Hz measuring 90 dBA is perceived at the same level a sound measuring 90 dBA at 1000 Hz, though the actual sound power level of the 100Hz sound is more than an order of magnitude greater.

Good luck with getting it changed. You may a chance if the club is run by democratic action of the members, rather than some board of mommies.

Abel

Dr1Driver

That's a strange rule, and an even stranger reason (as stated) behind it.

Comments made by others are true. Sound sounds louder at different frequencies.

"Freestyle"??? Anything other than pattern flying is usually termed "freestyle".

How far away are the other clubs? I drive about an hour, and 52 miles, to my main club, and consider myself lucky to have such a great field and good flying buddies.

Dr.1

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Matt, you're welcome at our ROGUE FIELD anytime, any prop, any attitude in flight, any rpm. All we ask is that you have a good time. We tolerate, but try to discourage the use of mediocre flying planes.

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

Do they frown on helicopters too?

50%plane

My Feedback: (5)

I have the same troubles. lol (darn circle burners!!)


I don't know your club, but maybe they put that rule there for a reason. What's the largest 3D plane that flys there? I've seen two loud 3D planes recently.(a 35% Carden Cap that was ripping the prop and a 37.5% Lanier Sukhoi with stock mufflers) I know that these planes can be much quieter, but the owners didn't see the need for that. In this case, I can easily see the need for such a rule.(though broad and oversweeping)


50%

abel_pranger

Hoss-

You ain't no land shark, so take that ugly hat off. What you are talking about isn't democracy, but rather tyranny of the majority. I know very well that you know the difference. No reasonable group with the authority to make rules should abuse that responsibility to make rules that infringe on another's freedom when there is no compelling reason to do so. Perfect right? Horse manure. What kind of rights did you stand up for while you drove that thermonuclear dump truck?

Abel

K1 Burner

In reply to horsefly; If you left here, you wouldn't be missed either!

redfox435cat

these kind of rules are BS. I'm not a big fan of 3D but it's total crap to tell someone else they can't do it. I would definitely be leaving the club or at least be making some real noise in the meeting. It's probably the loudest and most ignorant people in the club forcing this issue so you have to beat them at their own game. Things like no 3d over the runway though I still think is in bad taste is compromise I would deal with but not at all is unacceptable.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Matt

Although you haven't given many details, it sounds very possible that the club was targeting a particular person or group and you may have been affected also. Also, it isn't clear how this rule came to be. Do you know if the "No 3D" rule was indeed voted in by the membership after a period of time to consider and discuss?

Newc

A club is made up of members who make the rules. The most important rule is that if you don't like the rules, go somewhere else. This has absolutely nothing to do with AMA.

In the clubs that I have joined (and where I have been an officer) one of the largest problems is that those that fly a lot don't attend meetings - where rules are made - and those that attend meeting where rules are made may not fly much. I'll bet that the original poster is in the first category and therefore didn't attend meetings (he joined only because the field was close) where this was discussed, or doesn't speak up at the meetings in a manner that is comprehensible to the others in attendance and therefore doesn't have any influence on the rules - so....too bad, and join another club that has rules that you like and attend those meetings to keep the rules as you like them.

C'mon - you must either be kidding or ill-informed. A democracy is exactly what is defined by 'majority rules'. The difference that you may be trying to make is the difference between a true democracy - see above - and a 'representative democracy' or 'republic', which is the US of A. Clubs are made up of rules, by-laws and expectations of behavior. Each of these is specified in the club's charter and can be changed by following the rules and having them changed - which will require others that share your feeling to agree with you, attend meetings and vote appropriately.

Good luck, but keep in mind that This has absolutely nothing to do with AMA.

abel_pranger

Well, inasmuch as this club's operation (mindful that this opinion is based on one incident told from one side, and I respond to that limited and biased perception of the club only, while knowing it may not and probably does not portray the actual club accurately), models the way AMA operates far too often, it is an example in the sense of a microcosm of AMA and its MO.

Maybe the OP didn't attend the meeting to share his views. Does that mean that the decision/rule makers were unaware that he wanted to fly 3D, and that their action would deny him his freedom to do so? Does it even matter to you? Define democratic action however you want; I gave my view of what constitutes responsible democracy. Responsible democracy has an overriding concern for individual freedom. All rules impinge on freedoms. Rules made in responsible democracies are made reluctantly, with full recognition remorse that they will restrict somebody's freedom. That is why I said they must be made for compelling reasons, as to sacrifice the freedoms of some to protect the freedoms of the group as a whole. Your definition of democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

Abel

YNOT

1- Sounds like they are trying to get rid of you.
2-Were you at the meeting? One more reason to attend those things.
3-Strap a Hacker on that puppy and go show them!


In every case, I am aware of, where 3D is an issue at a field, it has more to do with a lack of communication with other club members. Go talk to the other pilots. Tell them there is a high chance of you wasting your bird and they should sit back and laugh when it happens. Serious, it has worked every time for me. If its not going to work out, go elsewhere.

Come to the Houston area, we can go TR down the runway and do all types of crazy stuff at this field out near Humble

Hossfly

Able, I stick by my item: Any Club has a right to institute such rules as the club members vote to institute. If a member fails to attend meetings then that is HIS problem, Either be a part of the business of the club or not, that is one's personal choice.
Right now my club has several rules that I oppose. I can live with them so I do. I did raise opposition to them when they instituded them, howeve my politicking was lacking. That is the way the world happens. Win a few, lose a few, some get rained out!

OTOH when I sold Jetero its property for the field, I foresaw certain items and I instituded MY tyranny by making Deed Restrictions and Sales Contract items such as 1. Club not able to refuse to host contests and Fly-Ins, 2. No man-carrying machines without my special permission (didn't want to finance this facility and have it taken over by ultra-light people) 3 No flight operations west of main flightline toward the hi-way, and several others to insure the facility remained a RC field.

I stood up for the rights of YOU and this country and Western Europe to NOT have to live under the Stalin / Krueshev doctrines. EDIT: BTW, Able, it was not a dump truck, it was a beautiful sleek airplane of the first order.

It worked for a while however the future is bleak as Big Business and government are selling us all to the Chinese.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Spot on.

I think we can reasonably assume the club in question is an AMA chartered club. But if not this has nothing to do with AMA, otherwise it is a valid concern in this forum.

BTW I may be wrong but I don't recall the OP indicting a "majority" voted on or otherwise adopted rule anyway. This tangent is misdirected unless clarified.

abel_pranger

Hoss, I won't deny that that member whose rights were in jeopardy had a responsibility to defend them. I just don't know from what has been said if he was afforded the opportunity.

This is a fairly unique situation. Personal property rights trump democracy in my utopia. You had every right to be master of your manor. Your terms on transferring your property to the club were generous, and were acceptable to those on the receiving end. I see no conflict with with my perception of democracy/freedom of action in that.

Form follows function......guess like the example of your club there are exceptions to general rules. Yes, your B-47 is one beautiful airplane. A heck of lot prettier than its design functionality, until one considers its real function as a deterrent to some seriously nasty business from the East. From that POV it shone, and I'm grateful for it and your part in it's operation.

Abel

Dr1Driver

Utopia does not exist. Hossfly is perfectly correct in his statements. ANY democracy is governed by the majority during specified voting procedures. The time and place of these procedures are usually announced to the constituents-at-large. If they are not announced, the times may be fixed for a certain date each week, month, quarter, year, or whatever. It is the voter's responsibility to make an effort to attend meetings and voice their opinions. A problem DOES arise when a minority of the members do not attend these meetings. Then you have governing by a majority of a minority. However, look at local and nationwide elections. That's usually the way it is. However, if it's important enough, most voters will make an extra effort to attend.

I do not know if the O.P. attended the meeting when this rule was voted in. If he did, he has every right to voice his pbjections. If he can find enough support, he can bring the subject up and get it voted on again.

Dr.1