103/17

Hello all.

This would be my first visit to the forums here at RCU so I will have to ask for forgivness if this has been covered and I am sure it has. I have returned to the hobby this summer after taking about 7 years off to raise our kids ( the hard years ). Now that they are all ready to graduate and life has settled a bit so I have returned to a hobby that has changed. Electrics were a novelty when I left the hobby ( I began in 1988 ). They were slow, expensive and not many people chose them. I now see that they are viable and are a growing segment of the hobby. My question is............ How did the AMA screw up so badly in figuring fequency assignments to the electrics and what is the future of the AMA? I am bothered every time I take off with a $1200.00 + 1/4 scale, gas burning investment when I know that little Jimmy could be flying his electric airplane in the parking lot at the end of the field / on the same frequency!!!!! It seems to me that the AMA did not put much thought to this subject and if they did then there must be some major component that caused their decision to go the way it did that I am unaware of.

I am also bothered with the fact that by nature there is no incentive for electric pilots to belong to the AMA? In the past with people I have trained not only did they have lots of time into building their model ( most electrics are ARF ) but most had no clue how to run and operate their engine. They were in short scared and clueless. In most cases they would activly seek out help and in the process you would get them involved in the club. All of this has seemed to change? Now you pull it out of a box , put it together, charge it and go to the local soccer field to crash it??????? The name "park flier" even suggests they do this very thing?

I am NOT dismissing electric flight. In fact I think it has a brighter future than nitro. I am asking some important questions about safety and the future of the AMA......................Please dont respond with critisizms, I am honestly a little worried about the current position I see our hobby in.

103/17

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

The AMA isn't responsible for freqs. That would be the FCC. The AMA can only lobby for what they want.

I should add that those "PF'ers" are normally available on 72mhz and the toy channels. (27mhz and something else) The failure is at the hobby shop level selling inappropriate freqs to the wrong people. The RTF PF'ers on the 72mhz channels should be reserved for club members/ AMA members.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

It looks like the AMA is trying to do something about the e-volution, they just move a little slower then many other orgs that have to adapt. They did propose something a few months ago in regards to e-power fields, but it scared the crap out of a lot of people including the EC. They know they have to jump on the bandwagon soon, an extreme measure is what they need to take, however it's inconsistent with their history. E power came a lot faster then they are used to dealing with.

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Welcome to the forums 6.05882!,

Sure there is.

They have the same incentives as glow, gas, glider, free-flight, control line modelers do. They will likely need to learn to fly, they may want to belong to an established club that has instructors and a flying field (although they may have some property and know someone to teach them). They may want to support model aviation in general. They may want to join an AMA club to fly their 80" scale P-47 with sound module and have a group of friends to fly with. The list could go on, but each person will have their own reasons in the end.

F106A

My Feedback: (2)

STL,
How's your e-ticket organization coming along? Since AMA dropped the ball on the e-ticket, a LOT of people are anxious to join your group.
Just asking, as you don't talk about it anymore.

NorfolkSouthern

That describes much of the problem with the R/C hobby in the present day. Getting a typical PF to join the AMA and an established club can represent a difficult challenge, as they don't care for the added cost of insurance and fees, let alone the gas and travel time required to and from the field. Electrics, unlike nitro, are very quiet even in the largest 40% scale. This means that one can literally fly the plane in their back yard, without scrutiny from the local community. At least, not until an accident happens. There is no licensing requirement for the R/C hobby, and probably never will be. Which means that if a tragedy involving a large-scale electric were to happen, it would be detrimental to the hobby as a whole. This includes both nitro/gas and electric. While there is no licensing requirement to fly a model airplane, the Consumer Product Safety Commission can and most likely will take matters into their own hands if something bad happens. This is evidenced by the regulation they imposed on the Schwinn Krate series bicycles and other variants, where the manufacturers had to remove the center console stick shift from any model made after 1974 or there abouts. And yes, I have read about some products being banned entirely even though no injuries resulted from their use, all because of the CPSC. And some products have had to undergo major modifications so they could stay on the market.

In as far as frequency is concerned, as others have said, the FCC controls that and not the AMA. A license used to be required for the R/C frequencies, but that expired long ago. I believe this has opened up the possibility of many problems, much like you described. But in addition to the park flying electrics, we are now seeing the unmanned aerial vehicle being added to the NAS. This means that more aircraft will have to compete for the same existing bandwidth. Some aircraft will have to have priority, and unfortunately the hobbyists will have to settle for second dibs, especially when police departments and local governments start to realize the usefulness of the technology. While I don't see changes in the immediate future, I feel that it will all evolve over time. I can't even guess what it'll be like in 20 years. I do know, however, that you can't even run an electric car or boat in my apartment community without being told to cease and desist. Could this be the wave of the future in our parks? I will say that soccer players most certainly have priority over kites, even if the area is just an open park.

NorfolkSouthern

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

I agree with your post for the most part but I have a bit of a problem with the above passage.

I am not sure just how an accident from one model incident would be detrimental to the hobby as a whole. Maybe...just maybe, some limitations, as it should be, to prevent future accidents as it pertained to any particular accident may be made but I really don't understand how the ramifications should be termed detrimental to the hobby as a whole.

Other activities such as boating, hunting, sky diving, mountain climbing...come to mind. People get hurt or killed often but the activities continue...why should ours be relegated to less fair persecutions?

Thomas B

My Feedback: (4)

Speaking of licensing r/c model flying.....

The UK has a scheme where pilots are licensed to different levels.....and they have had a number of fatalities resulting from R/C model flying as well, just like the US has had, with no R/C flying license scheme here in the US.

Speaking to another point make earlier in the thread: the idea of reserving park flyer ARF models that operate on 72 mHz for AMA members.

That is NEVER going to happen. At best, we could heavily lobby to make sure all models of this sort have very visible warnings included about not operating them near an established R/C field and the dangers that doing so can present to other R/C models.

NorfolkSouthern

Boats have to be registered. To hunt, you have to have a license and then the purchase of the rifle requires a background check. The skydiving and mountain climbing are activities that only affect the participant, rather than those who aren't directly involved. The R/C hobby, however, can affect those in the area who are not participating. And, there are those who consider a model airplane to be an attractive nuisance. They draw kids, and there are a few soccer moms and NIMBYs who aren't very keen on the idea. Call it unfair, but much of it is public perception which is not based on real fact.

In my post, I was expressing the operation of models in public parks rather than club fields, by people who don't have insurance. Accidents that affect those who are not involved invite lawsuits. And a stroller will win the contest against a park flyer every time. So will an injured dog for that matter, even if it's not on a leash. Our society is litigious in nature, and it's been that way for at least the last two generations. Lawyers, community lobbyists, NIMBYs, soccer moms, and other such fine citizens have made great contributions towards getting fields shut down, whether they be nitro/gas or electric. And yes, local ordinances that ban any and all R/C except in designated areas are quite common. Although model aviation will never be regulated, and there will always be products available, there will be fewer places to enjoy the hobby. Much of this credit can be given to public perception and irresponsibility by a few individuals.

NorfolkSouthern

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Sorry NorfolkSouthern, but how does one reconcile your contradictory words?




I truly find it hard to fathom anyone that has the wherewithal to fly large electric models will not posses the common sense to maintain some degree of safety... even if not for just the sake of his planes.

The truth is our sport is being regulated to some degree now. It is up to us whether we reverse the motion, hold fast or invite more.

Education to generate acceptance via understanding is key to our future acceptance. All too often only potential dangers, real or imagined are illuminated and that is truly the biggest detrimental factor of our passion by far. We are often our worst enemies!

I think as a cohesive group we should refrain from illuminating hypothetical negative scenarios at every opportunity. We should always portray the hobby in the most positive light possible.

As AMA members we should work together to help others on a one to one basis to instill the necessary tools that insures a fun but yet safe sport. We should avoid blanket regulations at every turn.

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Local ordinances and regulation are two different things. There is no regulation on model airplanes except what freqs we can use. No need to argue semantics, just try to understand the point he was making.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Ok, I'll concede...providing we concur that "if a tragedy involving a large-scale electric were to happen, it would be detrimental to the hobby as a whole.� is not an accurate view and is riddled semantically and the resulting connotations could be argued until pigs fly… and as such, the statement has no positive value and can only have a negative effect ultimately. Deal?

We have just got to keep from portraying this hobby in a manner that avails itself as a lesser worthwhile activity. Next time you guys want to talk our hobby down and illuminate possible hypothetical dangers just think about auto racing or something like that and refrain. Agree?

Rat1

Reserving 72 mhz for only club members etc is never going to happen and is actually a very bad idea for safety sake. These Parkflyers need to be on this frequency while the 27 mhz frequency should only be used on land based RC cars etc.

The problem is that someone on the 27 mhz band with a rtf parkflyer could be in some local park when some kid with a wally world RC car turns it on which will send the aircraft on the similar 27 band into uncontrolled flight which could possibly harm someone which would put a balck eye on the RC Aircraft comunity.

If people are so worried abotu someone turning their TX on just a short distance fromt he field them maybe they should invite the person over to fly at the club. Maybe sweeten the pot so to speak by negating the club dues along with having the club find a way to get the member some type of AMA membership at a cut price. If the member wishes to stay witht he club the next year then he may have to pay higher dues.

But welcome the parkflyers into the fold, entice them with lower rates, this would not only benefit the new comer but would also benefit the club since they can better monitor the channels.

But as long as club dues are as high as they are and as long as these guys are required to pay the over priced AMA prices then it may be something the club with have to live with.

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Rat, the "Us vs Them" is an old, tired arguement. Not to mention, completely irrelevant. If a hobby shop owner won't look out for me, I will return the favor.

To completely deflate your arguement, why would the folks that buy a $100-200 RTF airplane even want to join a club? They DO NOT understand the difficulty involved. I've heard the story over and over from people who find out that I fly at the local club. Even heard stories from these same people about shooting down local club members airplanes. Did the club members go over there and raise sand? Nope, every time the story is told, they were invited over for some instruction. Oh, and you don't have to be a club member to fly at our field, just an AMA member. No deadlines, just when you decide to join, pay the whopping $35.

Rat1

I just do not agree that hobby shops should hold back the higher quality electronics etc from the parkflyer group because they do not belong to a club or have AMA membership. Why should I be forced to fly onthe same channels as the wallyworld,radio chack etc rc cars. This would put myself along with the possibly millions of other non club parkflyers at risk of losing their models which ,I might add, are not cheap and can take many many hours to build. If I am on a certain channel and am within shoot down distance from a club then I also risk the chance of being shot down by some club member.

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Rat, like I said, if he's not watching out for me... If somebody wants to fly in a hay field out of town, he would need to make a decision. If some proud papa comes in wanting to buy his kid a $150 christmas present to get the kid out of his hair, that kid should NOT be on the same channels we use. It presents a danger to the clubs. Which last time I looked are places where people gather in large groups to play with model airplanes. Which is a bigger problem? Your RTF electric foamy going down in a parking lot or a giant scale P-51 going out of control during a club gathering?

KidEpoxy

Somewhere else I proposed the AMA should set aside the bottom 10 channels for Freq Conflict, let all the PFs have the bottom 10 channels & shootdown each other.

I dont see why that wouldnt aply here too.
Bartenders can refuse to serve a drunk under the name of Public Safety, so shop owners can simply ask for the AMA card to sell other than the bottom 10 channels to guys. Same high quality equipment, same features, just in the Chaos Channels of our plane band. Not a goverment act, just storeowners chosing to help prevent shootdowns, they dont even miss out on selling a $300 radio to some guy that needs a WallyToy- they can sell the most expensive radio they have but just in a channel "1_"

Would it be a perfect system incapable of letting a stray TX or two fall into PF hands?
Heck no.
But it would cull out 95% of the PF TX chaos on the freqs we use
(we just use them, they are not our freqs even when standing on AMA land)

afineman

Just a comment

I have bought all my radios on-line, how would these systems work here?

Also a LHS, nor the AMA can control that 72 Mhz band, actually if they did, they would find them selves in federal court.

Also would you want to be a LHS owner who gets dragged in to court for a discrimination claim.
(under what basis could the LHS owner for justifying not selling the radio, where the FCC puts no such limits, the FCC grants right of use as long as you accept part 15 (usage = acceptance)).

Rather than make this long I'll end here ( there are many more examples).

Brent

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Brent, it's easy because the airplanes are usually available in both configurations. Keep the 72mhz versions behind the counter, etc. Make a decision based who to sell what to. There aren't any descrimination laws about selling model airplanes. That's the dumbest arguement I've ever heard. Everyone knows the descrimination laws about race, sex, creed, etc. That's not what would happen, so wouldn't come into play.

Before you give those laws too much credit, there are still "men-only" golf courses. Remember B. Clinton getting in hot water for playing at one? Unless you are a lender or hiring, those laws are incredibly weak.

Rat1

There are alot of parkflyers out there that are not constructed of foam and are not rtf. Mountain models has some nice kits that fit the parkflyer status and they are nto constructed of foam. Eflite also has some parkflyer type models that are not constructed of foam and so does Hanger 9 for that matter. Why should these parkflyers be limited to the 27 mhz band because the owners of them do not belong to a club or the AMA?????

Oh and I also purchase most of my radio equipment online. If I purchase a transmitter then I am stuck with the channel that it is on. Once and awhile I need to purchase stuff at the nearest Hobby Town such as receivers etc. Do you really think that they should not sell me a compatiable receiver to my Hitec Flash 5 X radio because I do nto belong to a club or the AMA??? For one thing that is illegal and never going to happen no matter what the AMA says. It is just another form of discrimination.

But then what should a person expect from SOME of the AMA and club members??? Anything to keep the electric PF people down or force them to join something they do nto have any interest in doing.

Better hurry up and call the cops because someone is flying their parkflyer out over a field with full permission fromt he owner and that person is not joining the club. Oh better run over and tell the owner he is in grave danger because that little airplane is going to hurt a clump of dirt and he might get sued.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Just wondering why they have to be AMA members. Is this a city park or public land of sorts? Or just a mandate of the club? or both? or neither?

KidEpoxy

I'm guesing he isnt aware of what I fly at the park on occasion

ok, try this on for your EHS (e-hobbyshop)
AMA discount on Hitec & Futaba radios in channels above 20, members get $400 off the sellers price of $520 for a $120 radio. Just show channels 11-20 sell for $120 and channels 21+ sell for $520. You can buy any channel you want to pay for.

The feds say you can use the freq, they dont say I have to sell you a radio to do it. The simple sign Reserve Right To Refuse comes into play, go shop elsewhere.

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

The AMA does not regulate the frequencies.

I can just see it now, somebody that has several hundred acres of land and doesn't want to be an AMA member, or someone that has a local flyiing field that is not AMA, goes into a LHS and they refuse to sell him a radio because he is does not have an AMA card?!?!??!?!

What an incredibly POOR idea.

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

LCS, it's public land and the city requires us to carry a certain amount of insurance and they approved the AMA version many years ago.

Kid, you probably guessed that I'm talking about the LHS using discretion when selling toys to the uninformed. I'd never ask them to turn a sell down, just use some common sense on who gets which version.

Rat, you obviously live in 1984.

Rat1

And why do you say that?

Is it because I feel that it is wrong and discriminant to hold the more reliable systems from the PF groups or to even suggest it???

Or is it because of my suggestion that this suggestion comes from nose in the air type club or AMA members????

Want the PF guys to be under your control then think about how much it costs to get in that particular club.

This is just another reason why there should be a tiered membership for the PF group and non PF group.