KidEpoxy

I'm actually gonna suggest something to put into the Corona set of rules.... possibly for inclusion into their 2007 document.

Overengineered Control Linkages.
While the PVC & Coroplast may be indestructible, I could see a weakness in the linkages- the actual clevis & horn details. I propose 'all metal' or giant scale or some other system of overly heavy duty links. Possibly a test shooting of a few links on a 2x4 board to determine the most PB resistant, then put that into the Drones section of the document.

bkdavy

My Feedback: (1)

From the AMA 500-A Insurance Summary:

The policy does NOT cover business pursuits; that is any activity that generates income for a member beyond
reimbursement of expenses, except coverage is provided for an individual paid flight instructor.

As I understand it, fund raising activities generate income for the CLUB not the member. Consequently, this provision should not prevent the activity.

The case for safety rules for this activity (and I think the approach defined does establish a good base) needs to be made to the AMA, not the members of this forum. I applaud the efforts to seek input on how this activity can be sanctioned.

One of the areas that has not been included in the described approach are controls to make sure that paint balls that miss the target do not present a hazard to surrounding people or property. There should be a clearly established clear range of fire. I'm not sure what the range of a paintball is, but it is possible that an errant paintball would go beyond the established limits of the flying field. Local laws, regulations, and ordinances also need to be considered, so you may need to check with someone other than the AMA as well. Proposed rules for AMA sanction should include reference to those requirements (e.g. application for sanction should include a statement that the contest director has confirmed no violation of local laws or regulations, or that any necessary permits have been obtained, along with copies of the permit or application). Recognize that signing that statement, and subsequently finding out that there were applicable laws or regulations might invalidate the AMA sanction, and eliminate liability coverage.

Brad

KidEpoxy

Brad-
Interesting stuff.

I saw your concern for the extent of the PB range, and would like to suggest tools like GoogleEarth to get a nice picture of a field to help with proposals. From that, or on that, one can lay out the flight/NoFly lines, bounderies, and "downrange" areas

bkdavy

My Feedback: (1)

Google Earth and MSN Virtual Earth are excellent mapping tools, but unfortunately the AP images are badly out of date in many areas. I used MSN Earth to create a map of our new flying field to send to each of the surrounding property owners, which was a great help. So yes it can be used to identify fly/no fly zones, as well as map out paint ball zones of fire, but don't forget to add any new structures that may have grown up around the area.

Brad

UDET

Well here I am again discussing a topic that has been beat to death[:'(] But when people say things and act as though they have all the answers to subjects they have never even taken part in its like discussing politics with a 6 year old. This isn't the Democrats and Republicans here. We are one group. We must do whats in the best interest of the Hobby/Sport. I know Brent he is the Brother I never had. He and I only want whats best for our club and the Hobby/Sport. I was the President of the Corona R/C Club just as Brent is now. He and I know one of the biggest jobs a President has is to not put the club membership or ourselves
in a bad position of any kind. If the club wants to have and event all info is gathered. From experts who know about the subject. I would not go to one I would go to three or more to make sure they concurred with each other. Often times these experts came from outside the club membership. You do not want to get a by-est opinion. All decisions are made on facts and all facts are brought to the club membership and they have the final vote. We have never had and event that wasn't heavily researched. Brent and Myself are happy to listen to other points of view. But if your going to take a stance on a subject at least base your stance on facts. If we are to make or AMA is to make a good decision it must be based on facts not feelings. I do not know you Rat or DR1 Driver you are both most likely fine gentleman but you both have not done anything to help resolve the issue because you have not brought any facts to the table. I am done with this subject. What ever AMA decides to do is cool with me Because I would rather go fly.
Happy landings.
UDET IS OUT[>:]

Gremlin Castle

My Feedback: (14)

Udet as you can probably tell by the postings most of the people involved with this discussion spend more time at the keyboard than they do at a flying field.

Our club holds an annual charity drive for area children in which paintball has been a part of the flying activities. It has always been an AMA sanctioned event and continues to be so. The event is listed in the October magazines under the December flying events.

As a side note I had to do a study of projected dangers concerning all model flying activity during the 2001 period. The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commision's Annual Report to Congress had the following information. Out of 360 product categories, bicycle riding was number 1, soccer 41st, ping-pong 93rd, model airplanes 172nd, situated between tie racks and of all things, potty training.

Alexander & Alexander of Omaha Nebraska does loss control analysis statistics for insurance companies and their policy holders. Their estimate for AMA members was one accident per 123,000 flights. Only .07% (seven hundreths of one percent ) of AMA members were involved in any model related accident in the 12 month period studied. During the same period 11% of all registered automobile drivers were involved in accidents.

I know that facts and figures should never get in the way of a discussion like this but it appears that the activity has been sanctioned by AMA for several years and has just now come to the attention of the panic mongers.

Udet, we are doing the same as your club in that we hold the event year after year paying no attention to the clamor of those who use rumor and conjecture as their primary decision making tools.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

I agree, this is why it's no longer a rumor as per the Director of Safety Code Clarification at the AMA, as per Hoss' request just to ask them to find out. Otherwise this debate would still be debatable, instead we got something from them in print, not speculation.

KidEpoxy

no, WE dont have something in print. YOU got an email.

The published Safety Code is in print.
The published Insurance binder is in print.
The published Changes from DB/EC in MA are in print.

some guy on the internet got an email, A club in corona got a call & vergal go ahead.... not in print

They have had a Year & A Half to put in print since Carl said they were looking into it, and they still havent put in in print

Gremlin Castle

My Feedback: (14)

And what did you get in print?

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

Thank you for your question regarding shooting Paintball and other types guns at RC Airplanes. I think that you would agree that this type of activity is detrimental to our sport and AMA does not condone this type of activity.

The policy has an exclusion for Expected or Intended Injury. While an injury might not be intended by the participant, it can be expected due to the dangerous nature of the activity being performed. In addition, this has been discussed by the Safety Committee who oppose any sort of flying activity involving air-to-air combat or ground-to-air combat involving any sort of projectiles.

Carl P. Maroney
Special Services Director
[email protected]
765.287.1256 X250
AMA HQ
5161 E Memorial Dr
Muncie, IN 47302
Website: http://www.modelaircraft.org

I have yet to SEE one discussion, email or document provided by the AMA that said anything about an approval for sanctioning of a paintball event, other then Corona's RC's event listed a year and a half ago, which could have easily slipped through the system. Which the approval took plance over a phone call convoersation, but never got anything in writing of any kind.

Regardless, that was then and this is now. I see plenty of events which claimed to have paintball events listed in their sanction, just not listed in the event's, even Hoss' new event who is claiming that it's a paintball fun fly. I would really like to see someone do what Corona did before, now after how Carl addresses the subject. Anything documented at all is better then a lot of hearsay.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

I call BS...Shame on you!

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

Well if you say it's not true why don't you call the AMA and let them know that someone is making libelous statements against their organization and have them sue the daylights out of me. I know how much you like me and all.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

He thinks...he gave an opinion...The SC is not an opinion. It would have been only a few syllables to disallow projectiles directed at airborne models in the SC.

Here is the Skinny…If your incessant whining produces those syllables I will be sure you get full credit and the admiration you desire. Thanks STL, thanks!

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

Your snippets are rather weak LCS. The more you convince yourself the AMA approves paintballing planes, the more you might actually start believing it. If he said the complete opposite of what he said, do you think that the AMA would be 100% against paintballing and shooting RC aircraft? He clearly says the AMA does not condone this activity.

Thank you for your question regarding shooting Paintball and other types guns at RC Airplanes. I think that you would agree that this type of activity is detrimental to our sport and AMA does not condone this type of activity.

The policy has an exclusion for Expected or Intended Injury. While an injury might not be intended by the participant, it can be expected due to the dangerous nature of the activity being performed. In addition, this has been discussed by the Safety Committee who oppose any sort of flying activity involving air-to-air combat or ground-to-air combat involving any sort of projectiles.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

What snippets? I gave Carl's response in whole...providing it was complete when you posted it...but who knows?


Hmmm...The Safety Committee huh...well that is the AMA I guess...not!

You know STL, if left up to a typical Safety Committee very little would be allowed. Their function by nature is to oppose all things that may be construed unsafe. Fortunately it has to pass muster before the EC... then and only then is something put in print that has any real weight...Keep whining and you will probably take one more activity of the books. Thanks STL, Thanks!

Gremlin Castle

My Feedback: (14)

And yet you see that we have an upcoming event listed in the October magazine clearly listing paintball as one of the activities.

This sounds typical of those that want to have an organization attempt to save people from themselves. You did not address the .07% figure about AMA members being involved with any type of claim that involved the AMA insurance. To me this would indicate that like many other types of cheap insurance, if it doesn't cost much then you do not need it because cost is based on claim payout.

All of those that can furnish objective evidence that they have been actively involved in planning or executing a plane versus paint ball event probably are the best source of reality. The rest is just conjecture and hearsay.

9-(Part of your quote below)
Regardless, that was then and this is now. I see plenty of events which claimed to have paintball events listed in their sanction, just not listed in the event's, even Hoss' new event who is claiming that it's a paintball fun fly. I would really like to see someone do what Corona did before, now after how Carl addresses the subject. Anything documented at all is better then a lot of hearsay.
[/quote]

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

GSW Toys for Tots
TX
12/2/06 - Fort Worth, TX (C) GSW Toys for Tots. Site: Club Field. Max Ficken CD, 8216 Hall Mark Dr N Richland Hts TX 76180 PH:817-498-4744 email: [email protected]. Fun fly and paint ball shoot. Entry is new unwrapped toy. On site concessions, no channels 23, 24; 39, 40; 53, 54. Manicured grass runway. Sponsor: GSW AERO CLUB

http://modelaircraft.org/comp/Contes...wc12022006.htm




Gremlin Castle

Just wondering why channels 23, 24; 39, 40; 53, 54. are blocked. Thanks

KidEpoxy

ok, now the PB listing yet again IN PRINT for the gsw sanctioned event means that Carl was either Blowing STL off & telling him some hooey he wanted to hear to get rid of him, or Carl & the Safety Committee are completely incompetent at their job of trying for a year & a half to stop PB at events.

How many years does it take for a Safety Code change by the Safety Committee ?

IN PRINT
gee, what a poor timing to use that phrase STL
Sanctioned paintball IN PRINT again, after so much private emailing by Carl
But at least you got what you wanted

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Wow, that must be a good document, when two planes collide and go out of control, the documention makes sure they do not land somewhere unintended and injure someone.

So much for the helmet requirement, just bring a piece of paper for protection next time!

UDET

Hey Guys,

I have asked everyone (including AMA and Carl M.) who opposes this whole paint ball event to bring some sort or statistics to the table that backs up their claims that it is unsafe.
I have not seen any as of yet. But at the same time I'm asking these same people to believe me. And they do not know me. I have talked to Carl M from AMA I did send him all Our plans and layouts with dimensions and AMA APPROVED it and it sounds like they still are approving paint ball events. Now like I said most of you do not know me so you may Not believe what I have to say. I guess I should understand this but I came into this world with my name and my honesty and that is the way I will leave it. I do not wish to be a Hypocrite or to appear as one and I do not think anyone ells that has posted here want to appear as a hypocrite. I have said to bring statistics to the Table so we can make a well Informed decision. So here is my suggestion. 1. All clubs that already have paint ball markers and paint balls go out on a Saturday or Sunday or any other day they can meet At Their flying site. 2. Layout their their site to show where the spectator line is Show pictures and give Dimensions from the Spectator line to the flight line. 3. show where the Firring Line and pilot stations are from each other and show the distance between the Firring line and the Pilot stations to the flight line and give dimensions. 4. Show the distance between The spectator Line And the firring line. 5. List the type of aircraft used what is it made of. Please take photos and please list anything special you have done to it. 6. List any and all Equipment Used in The event please add photos of all items. 7. List any training given to personal to run this type of event. 8.list how many workers it takes to run your event.9 List any and all accidents that have occurred during this activity. Including fingers being cut while starting the aircraft to Aircraft that have gone out of control and crashed into the Spectator area to spectators or anyone ells hurt or killed during this activity. 10 Take your drone up and have someone fire the Paint Balls at them keep track of how many pb were fired document any and all structural damage with the location on the aircraft with photos if possible. 11. Show the flight pattern used and altitude flown and distance the aircraft was from the firring line during the time the activity was taking place. 12. Has any aircraft at your field been shot at with a Paint Ball marker at any other time when your club was not hosting this activity. I'm sure theres more we could add to this list but its a start.
One more thing If AMA does not approve of this activity they need to stop sanctioning events that have them listed in the AMA contest section.
Happy landing
UDET

KidEpoxy

UDET
Since you have already talked to Carl once, would mind consolidating a repository of various club documents on the topic: You wanna be the PB Librarian?

I'm not asking for you to hire lawyers & engineers to take surveys, but just allow Clubs to send the documents they have to be gathered up into one Collection, and perhaps a standard would evolve as folks see what others have done. We have already seen the will of folks wanting to hold this event to research what has been done before, such as basing their plans off the FunFest rules.

Once a Collection of independent rules becomes available, folks will see what makes a nice layout, and maybe even address their documents into similar format & section numbers.... and adopt rules they hadn't considered but learn about in the Collection

Would you mind letting folks mail you their rules, and just gather them into a catalog/collection?

UDET

kidEpoxy,

I would be glad to collect all the information and facts from all the clubs that already take part in the Paint Ball activity. In my last post I described one way I thought usable data could be found. I would be glad to talk to Carl M or anyone ells in the AMA as long as I can show them any and all facts to support the issue. I would also ask that each club that participates write their findings on their own club letterhead with the names of the Officers/Member who wrote the form up. And if Possible Photos or a VCR tape or a DVD.
Reason a pictures worth a thousand words. And no one can claim I made these rules up for a club in Texas if there is pictures of the people in the club showing how they set up for their Paint Ball Event. And they must put in all their findings GOOD BAD OR INDIFFERENT. I am willing to talk to anyone about an issue as long as I have facts to support it.
I will be leaving for three weeks for job training tomorrow. I will try and keep watch but I will be pretty busy for the next month. I believe in oder for the AMA Safety Council to make a decision that can be written with clarity we need to give them the information to let them do that. Too be honest I would rather go practice my slow rolls then mark up a plane. But if Paint Balling is done safely and no one is at any greater risk then any other form of modeling shouldn't clubs have the choice to hold this type of activity.
I will help in anyway I can. I do not have any special pull or power. The only power I have is I am not afraid to talk to anyone.
Happy Landing
UDET[>:]

Newc

UDET - Good on you for attempting to get data instead of emotion to be the controlling factor on this topic.

brentp76

My Feedback: (14)

Udet, I think that this would be a great start in making this a sanctioned event. Is there another email for carl. he does not respond to his modelaircraft.org email..?

brentp76

My Feedback: (14)

Quick update. UDET was called by AMA regarding this topic today They are very interested in the info we are looking to gather, He is out of town for a couple of weeks. He told AMA he would follow up with them and hopefully have info for them... So this is where the people out there need to get there info together regarding thier paintball events..